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Enough Rope With Andrew Denton -

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(generated from captions) (APPLAUSE) Ladies and gentlemen, Pat Rafter. Let's bring him on before I tear up. short, he made Australia proud. after the game as during it. In strength of character was as obvious strength of character was as as his achievements, his enormous respected for his behaviour as much rare thing, a great sportsman who is rare thing, a great sportsman who hasn't met my first guest. He's a Whoever said nice guys finish last evening and welcome to Enough Rope. (APPLAUSE) Thank you very much. Good This program is captioned live.

Open champion. result! Pat Rafter is the 1997 US That will do it! Unbelievable Rusedski. Here's some footage. slam title will you walloped Greg the '97 US Open, your first grand effects at the ABC! Let's go back to effects at the ABC! Let's go back Fantastic! We can't afford special doing that, too, please? Whoo! memory lane. Whoo! Would you mind later. Let's take you on a trip down later. Let's take you on a trip back to what you will do next a bit Looking forward to it. I will get It's another great step in my life. It's going to be another big change. Everything's ready to rock-and-roll. up? My wife has been nesting. That's right. Is the nursery all set That's right. Is the nursery all four weeks away from baby No. 2? there for the babies. You're about three or four years, I want to be baby coming shortly. For the next ready to do that. We have another back in at some stage but I'm not do owe tennis a lot, I need to put to get back involved with tennis? I back into something again, do I want back into something again, do I feet, what do I want to do, jump home, just still trying to find my had a baby. I spent a lost time at wasn't going to be it any more. We After six months I decided tennis what I wanted to do with my life. wanted to sit down and reflect on sort of stepped away from the game I sort of stepped away from the game the next year straight after I had after my tennis career finished. For after my tennis career finished. one... We had a baby pretty soon President of Greenland - an easier President of Greenland - an ease you wouldn't ask. Who was the retired? That was a question I hoped retired? That was a question I What have you been up to since you is not very good. I I'm not either. later. Did dance? A little bit. He John Travolta. But you have to dance John Travolta. But you have to quotient of any guest. You even beat quotient of any guest. You even You just got our highest whoo quotient of any guest. You even You just got our highest whoo

and then we set up my charity a a starlight noun days at that stage said - so we gave half of it away to said - so we gave half of it away just went straight into Newk and consult my parents over there. I pretty well what I did. I didn't Let's give away some of it. That's to be set up for some of your life. one tournament now and you may need steady on a little bit. You have won steady on a little bit. You have all away to charity. And Newk said done a grand slam, I would give it done a grand slam, I would give said I would always do, if I ever of my things, I prayed for and I 9. I pulled him aside and said, one court to do an interview for Channel court to do an interview for charity." John Newcombe came on the give half of it to children's you said to your family "I'm gonna tournament, quite a big prize money, them later. When you won that will have a find a special place for will have a find a special place house saying "Yes, I won that." I them, I think. I don't go round the the trophies. My mother has both of I suppose. In the house I don't have I suppose. In the house I don't would have mailed it mailed it out, Yeah, that could have been - they to. We had no time for cheques! send it out. We had a party to go works. No, I think they just sort of works. No, I think they just sort cheque? I don't know how that all forgot to pick up the winner's After the US Open, is it true you some tension into the interview. No, I was just trying to inject Did I say that bitterly, did I? bitter, bitter moments shortly. but that's okay. We'll get to those couple of dreams didn't come true, always wanted and it came true. A moment. It was a dream that I'd great thing. I really enjoyed the in the past that much. It was a yourself. I just don't like to live just when you remind me, people like just when you remind me, people going "I won the US open"! No, it's You don't walk around the house but those days are over as well. it's really exciting and it's great interview or something like that, When I do see it and like on an I try not to reflect too much on it. what of that day is still with you? (APPLAUSE) It's still good! Now, what (APPLAUSE) It's still good! Now,

it's not good enough. It's rubbish, don't want to come second or third, doing well, you had to win 'em. I well at Wimbledon. But not just well at the Australian Open, doing well but then there was also doing the next year, where I won '98 as could do it again. That drove me to was great but I wanted to see if I After I won my first grand slam, it Davis Cup, winning women bell done. winning a grand slam slam, winning you set out to succeed, and that was you set out to succeed, and that because you hadn't succeeded what hard, not for the first few years the circuit? It started becoming given year. What passed for fun on seeing Richard Krajicek once in any many times you can get excited about many times you can get excited It's fair to say there's only so once opening a book between sets. often boring. I remember Jim Courier often boring. I remember Jim on the circuit for 12 years. It's doesn't happen every day. You were philosophy. Winning a grand slam It's not a cliche, it's a amount we have to give back as well. a cliche but there is a certain who are less fortunate, I know it's you still got to give away to people you still got to give away to had to do. And I still to this day, just thought that it was what you and we had no money back then. I little box that used to go around, putting money into the... that remember always seeing my father something. I wasn't quite shumpt I um, I guess putting back or to church, and there was a sense of, with nine of us, with mum and dad, as a young kid, we got dragged along as a young kid, we got dragged church not that I wanted to go, but as a Catholic, and had to go to beliefs, I think. I was brought up go through different religious different stages of your life, you dreamed of it, as you said. Well, thing to do, since a kid you had this, 'cause it was a very generous conversation. What was motivating (Laughs) I can't remember the done or was it "You gave how much?" done or was it "You gave how much? of the conversation? Was it well rang home, what was the first part couple of years later. And when you

Just had to get out. When you were - despite being goal focused on these various tournaments, who were the players who made it fun for you on the circuit? The first few years, the circuit? The first few years, it wasn't about fun, it was about wasn't about fun, it was about doing the job. And I dedicated my life to getting to that position of winning a grand slam or winning it. After that, after I'd won my first one, I then found weeks on a calendar in then found weeks on a calendar in in certain places that I could have fun, and then I would call on a couple of mates, a mate from Adelaide, who I grew up playing with, and then a couple of guys on the tour who were doubles players. They were around the same sort of tournament as well, and we we decided to light up the towns we went into. Is it true you would went into. Is it true you would also check yourself into hotels under ridiculous names? Mr Benny was my name. After I won the first US Open, that's when I started becoming a that's when I started becoming a bit more serious. You would get the occasional phone call at 12 o'clock at night or 1 in the morning from Just had to get out. When you were then, you just wanlded out? then, you just wanlded out? It was that strong a feeling by you beauty, I only have one left. When I got a bit injured, I thought was 12 and I just counted 'em down. had 13 tournaments to go, and there year on the tennis circuit, I knew I year on the tennis circuit, I knew I was excited by that, but my last gotta keep resetting your goals. And gotta keep resetting your goals. rubbish! But you set your goals, you rubbish! But you set your goals, at night or 1 in the morning from an Australian journalist saying, what do you think about your first-round match tomorrow against... you're like "How did you get my number, just so peeved off that you had to go under different names. There was a guy called Ben Harper, the musician, who I was very found of. Johnny Depp used to book in under Mr Donkey Penis. I guess that makes it very amusing for the person who calls in. If you ever do the senior circuit, keep that name in mind. circuit, keep that name in mind. You and your brother met the Pope once, didn't you? Oh God. I was dreading this question. My wife said to me

last night, what are you going to say on this interview? Have you got everything lined up? I said, no. everything lined up? I said, no. You can really hang yourself here, she said, as the name suggests. I said said, as the name suggests. I said I don't know what questions he is going to ask me but this question - I know where you're going to lead with this. You know what was said, don't you? Actually, no I ent don't . Oh okay. Now you've hung yourself, so off you go! (Laughs) God adapt! Let's see. We met the Pope - I didn't remember what year that was, 99 or 2000. We had to get in line and meet everyone. I will tell you the story now, I have hung myself, you're right. We were waiting in line. I was thinking, what am I gonna say here? My brother Peter went first. He went through the other side, and I went through and other side, and I went through and I thought, oh, what do I say, the man's not really looking at me, he was sort of down, and I thought. was sort of down, and I thought... this sounds really, really arrogant but it wasn't meant to come across this way, but instead of asking this way, but instead of asking for blessings for the rest of the or whatever, I just blessings for the rest of the family or whatever, I just said "Bless you. or whatever, I just said "Bless you." (Laughs) And I kept walkin'. (Laughter) I walked on the other side - I walked out to see Pete my brother and I have gone Oakes Pete brother and I have gone Oakes Pete I think I just messed up. (Laughter) and I don't know if he heard me, and I don't know if he heard me, and Pete goes, he said you're supposed to call him your holiness, I called him your honour. I said well, I him your honour. I said well, I just blessed the Pope. (Laughter) That blessed the Pope. (Laughter) That is such a great story. It was terrible. Oh, we then went on, ran out of there for the State of Origin match, we found the Ned Kelly Bar in a we found the Ned Kelly Bar in a side street near the Vatican, so we went in there and the game was on, so he turned on and Gorden Tallis got turned on and Gorden Tallis got sent off in that match by Bill Harrigan. My goodness, I had to go back and repent again after that. So everything came out, but... it was everything came out, but... it was a good day. It's a wonderful story. Speaking of religious experiences,

for one week in 1999, you were ranked No. 1 in the world. At ranked No. 1 in the world. At around that time. Connection! What was that time. Connection! What was that week like? I was in Bermuda, having a rest after Wimbledon, I think, a rest after Wimbledon, I think, I'd lost in the semifinals and the LA tournament was on, which I decided to miss and have a couple of weeks off before the big stretch through America again, and Sampras had lost in the quarters and Agassi who was also around there lost in the semis. They had gone finals and winner the year before. Because we were all very, very close in the points very, very close in the points their ranking dropped off and I just sort of took over. And I lasted one week. (Laughter) one week. Was it a special week? Do things happen when you're No. 1? You get a crystal vase, to say I was No. 1. That's good. Yeah, thanks. (Laughter) Well, you do. No, it was a good dream. It was another thing that I remember on the tennis courts in Nambour on the Queensland Sunshine Coast, hiting up with my coach at the time, Gavin Yarrow, who really started me off at an early stage, and --at an early age, and we'd say jokes, he said you're gonna be jokes, he said you're gonna be top 10 in the world, No. 1 in the world and we'd try to hit balls over and it was all a laugh and I was 10 years old. And listen, somehow that may sink deep into your mind and sets up a foundation forest of your life and maybe it did for me. A fantastic thing. ╝Yellow╛' A fantastic thing. ╝Yellow╛' Always curious about a backstage of tennis in the locker rooms, if there's a pecking order or etiquette. Does pecking order or etiquette. Does the guy ranked No. 1 in the world get guy ranked No. 1 in the world get to use the guy ranked No. 284 as a use the guy ranked No. 284 as a foot stool or as a bike rack even? How does that work? I think there's a lot of - I remember coming through the ranks myself and there's a lot of admiration for those guys. You get in there, you're so intimidated, you're sort of scared, do I say hello to him? If I do say hello to him, will he say hello to me back?

him, will he say hello to me back? I think I was about 90 or 89, Yannick Noah was playing Lendl in the semifinals of the Australian Open. semifinals of the Australian Open. I was in the locker room there. I saw Y parks nnick preparing and I said "Good luck mate." He said "Yeah, thanks very much." He spoke to me thanks very much." He spoke to me - it was great. A big thrill for me, to have someone respond which you don't always expect out of sports people are your peers. Who were the players you couldn't stomach on tour? (Laughter) Um... hmmm... oh I had a bit of a problem with Rios. had a bit of a problem with Rios. He was one guy you you'd sort of be in an elevator of all place and say g'day to and he'd just look at you. And you sort of go "Where "Where And you sort of go "Where "Where did that come from?" So you look the other day. It's a long 10 storeys up. He was a strange cat. Yeah. Sampras and I had our run-ins but we'd always talk. You did have a we'd always talk. You did have a bit of a niggle happening there. What was that about? You just found - in '97 I got Pete two or three times '97 I got Pete two or three times in that particular year, and then I that particular year, and then I won the US Open. And I think it was - no, I didn't beat him in '97. Maybe I didn't. But I won the US Open. He felt like I had taken the title felt like I had taken the title away from him or something, I've got no idea. Then he got his back up a little bit in that Davis Cup we played them in a semifinals in Washington. I don't know what happened then. Then I wasn't afraid of him any more and then I would voice my opinion. In '9 l 8 I beat him in the finals of a big tournament in America and he tournament in America and he smashed a few things around. Smashed things! He smashed a lot in the locker room, he lost it. He said something in an interview and I just said "He is just a big baby, just cop it on the chin" or something like that. I chin" or something like that. I beat him in the US Open in the semifinals, and he said "I had a sore knee." I said "When will this guy give me any credit for beating

him?" Then the media took a few misquotes out of the ordinary. I rang him up once, when something totally wrong was said, and said "That wasn't I said." I did not say you caused the invasion of Poland. When you say you rang him up, I would imagine that's not a regular thing to do. Was that hard for you to do? It was a bit because he to do? It was a bit because he would have heard what was said, not have heard what was said, not really what was said but what was taken completely out of context. I didn't want to face him, knowing that he was really gonna really dislike me. I don't like people disliking me. It's gonna happen, but if I can avoid it, I will How was the conversation? Was it awkward? I just rang up and said g'day, Pete, it's Pat here, and he said Pat who? You said Benatar! (Laughter) No, I didn't go like that. We just had a bit of a chats and he said yeah no worries mate. Not no yeah no worries mate. Not no worries mate, but whatever you say. He said "I have a sore knee, get off the phone." Something like that Another player you had fluctuating fortunes with was The Poo, Mark Philippoussis, do you feel for him now, that sort of hell of having potential unfulfilled? Yes and no. potential unfulfilled? Yes and no. I don't really know his background don't really know his background and what drives him, and what his what drives him, and what his family background is. Does that affect his life, or not? But... and then the other way I have seen the way he trains, and he should be a lot better than what he was. He just didn't work. Simple as that. He had an amazing talent. I think he definitely could have been No. 1 in the world, could have won a handful of grand slams. He was big, strong and powerful and had every shot but just lacked the intensity and will to win. Hu say he didn't work. You worked really, really hard to where you were and so did your family. That's what I mean about, do you feel for him, that this is a man that hasn't been able to fulfil.

that hasn't been able to fulfil... In that sense I do, because - I don't feel for him in that sense. Let me go back. I know what work it takes to get there, as much talent as Mark had, you still need to work hard and he didn't do it, so he hard and he didn't do it, so he will not get the results. So you don't feel for him for that because he feel for him for that because he had an opportunity and he wasted it. an opportunity and he wasted it. But on the other side of the mental on the other side of the mental side of it, I don't know what drives him or what makes him tick, and maybe something, you know, that he had in his mind that he wasn't gonna his mind that he wasn't gonna worked hard, that stopped him from working hard. So it's hard to really sit back and judge people when you back and judge people when you don't really know exactly everything really know exactly everything there is about 'em, but we had our run-ins, because a few times over Davis Cup issues, he said he was coming or he would go and train, walk off after half an hour and walk off after half an hour and we'd all be there for four hours, training our hardest, and thinking what's all this about, we're a team here, we have to play together. I starting getting a bit upset with that, because I thought there were other players that were willing to play. Just before we move on from The Poo, do you think his - I shouldn't call him The Poo, it's a terrible... (Laughs) Good terrible... (Laughs) Good on HHG terrible... (Laughs) Good on HHG and Roy! Do you think he is finished as a big-time player? Very hard for a big-time player? Very hard for him to come back. He may have one to come back. He may have one little shot at it but I can't see him getting back within that top 4 or 5. I don't know if he ever got there anyway but we would have been very, very close there at some very close there at some stage very close there at some stage . Top 20 maybe. But this may be his last chance right now and he has to have no injuries and work real hard. no injuries and work real hard. That hard work doesn't show up for three to six months either. So don't expect big things from him. Can we do the whhowhh again? I'll take you back to Wimbledon 2000 which is the one against Pete. We have a bit of footage of that here. Great! (Laughter) That's it, for the seventh time, Pete Sampras has done it. That's his parents, they

it. That's his parents, they haven't seen him play, but... That's actually, that was the entire game, the shortest grand slam ever, just one shot. Before you go on to an event like that, are you aware that this is a world event in the dressing room, do you have that sense of it? Not really. 1% of your mind might know it's on, but you have to focus on what you have to do. You don't get distracted about who's watching. Takes you a while sometimes to settle into matches, but before the match itself, that particular match, because it was very, very dark and I probably should have stopped, but it was inevitable, the result, so we kept going in the end. But there was a big rain delays, probably for five or six hours and so you just go or six hours and so you just go into a room and you don't know whether a room and you don't know whether to fall pay sleep or try and concentrate on the match. Is Pete around, are you in the same room at this point? Um... I remember that match, we were, actually down match, we were, actually down stairs in a private room and he was down there, too, and yeah we had a bit there, too, and yeah we had a bit of a chat. But we weren't talking a chat. But we weren't talking about our tactics for the match. You weren't trying to psych him out, do the Rios thing, just look away. With Pete, you didn't want to upset him too much, because that just him too much, because that just gave him more ammunition to beat you. Unfortunately I did that a couple Unfortunately I did that a couple of times. You said after that game you felt you choked Definitely Is there a sense when you're aware of your nerves that the world is spinning out of control? It's very hard to stop your feelings at that time. stop your feelings at that time. You try breathing but you just don't have the time, you only have 15 seconds to get your things together and get out and play that next point. Just happens very, very quickly, and like that , it was, quickly, and like that , it was, you know, 4-3, 5-4 and he has won it. Because you would have trained for that all your life, that dealing, having the mental toughness to having the mental toughness to deal with a moment? Yeah, but each occasion, in each --and each match is different. I'd come back from shoulder surgery and I hadn't shoulder surgery and I hadn't played a lot of tennis going into there. For me to be thrown straight into the finals of a Wimbledon, I mean,

the finals of a Wimbledon, I mean, I didn't know how long I was even going to play for, could I get back to even playing well again after to even playing well again after the surgery? So it was like I was just so excited to be there. I walked away from that Wimbledon feeling that was a good result. Yeah, I lost, I choked but that's okay. lost, I choked but that's okay. Then after the second Wimbledon, won I lost to Goran I came away bitterly dis poinlded. You thought you would win that one, didn't you? Yeah, I did and even to the last point I still thought I would win. I was very, very close there again, two points away from the match. He came up with a couple of amazing serves. The one thing about Goran, which is good, you don't have time to choke. He doesn't know where the ball is going, so how would you know? I stayed in-house for about a week after that, didn't want to talk about it. You talk about his serve, which was I think at clicked at 820, which was I think at clicked at 820,000 kilometres an hour. Did you ever get hit by one of his serves? No. Just as well or you wouldn't be sitting here now! Talking about getting getting hit by serves I remember playing doubles with Mark Philippoussis and we were playing against Guy Forget and Lasic from Switzerland. I said to Switzerland. I said to Mark, let's do a body serve. They have turned their back and given us an awful look. Mark goes, where should I serve now? I said "Go up the body again." I just kept saying body to him. These guys were getting so irate. It was just great to see these guys getting so mad. I just kept fueling the fire. It was great! You always had a reputation as a nice guy. (Laughter) (Laughs) I think four times you got the ATP sportsmanship award. Was it overrated, when were you a bastard? overrated, when were you a bastard? The only real guy I a run-in was a guy called Jeff Tarango on the guy called Jeff Tarango on the court itself. We had a few run-s in. He went out of his way to wind things up. He thought he would be the next McEnroe but he just couldn't play

tennis very well. He could play it okay, just enough to annoy you. But no, general no, generally, I tried to play the game as fairly as I could, and I think what turned that whole thing around, or started giving me the awards was a point that I gave back to a guy in Adelaide on a very, to a guy in Adelaide on a very, very big occasion, in a tournament there, which I - you don't normally do, it was just so far out and I conceded that I'd lost the point and they called it in. I went back to serve and they went 9-8 Rafter in the tie break. I just thought I can't break. I just thought I can't accept that. And everyone I thought I was this nice guy. Who won that game? I think I double-faulted the next point and lost. That was exactly what Rochey did. He was very disappointed - what were you doing? I said I don't know, a weak moment. A few years ago you said you'd A few years ago you said you'd been watching Hewitt play and you said I couldn't remain that intense for more than two weeks. Do you reckon you had enough mongrel in you? Yeah, I think so. People always Yeah, I think so. People always said when you were growing up, you gotta be a mongrel, you gotta be hard, likes McEnroe and sort of stuff everyone else, but that wasn't my philosophy. I thought you could philosophy. I thought you could play the game and hold your head high the game and hold your head high and do your best and you can win that way and I think I would have way and I think I would have cramped after two minutes if I did what Lleyton does. No, Lleyton has an amazing amount of intensity and that's how he needs that's how he needs to get himself up to win matches. That works for him. For me, I need to pace myself. But when certain moments called for it, I definitely got fired up. After that second Wimbledon final against Goran, your dad made what I think was one of the great speeches in Australian short. He said we're proud of Pat's achievements but we're more proud of him as a man, the way he handles defeat I think makes him a great man. What did makes him a great man. What did that mean to you? Well, made me very proud. I think we always try not to

upset our parents or we always try to be our best for our family. And you never try to do anything that disgraces your family. And that's just one thing where you think, well, yeah I've made my mum and dad really happy. A lot of that comes from the way I was brought up and the way my father is. That's just the way he is. I remember getting dragged off once or twice by him. What was that for? Being a brat. Just a kid. I used to throw my racquet all over the fence and hit balls everywhere. I mean, I was - I was, um - I don't know what I was doing but I wanted to win very badly. He just hauled you off? Once he got me by the scruff of the neck and pulled me home in the middle of a game. That was embarrassing. I was 19! (Laughter) (APPLAUSE) Having that background, having that family background, having that family background, being brought up that way, do you feel comfortable when you watch Lleyton and his carry-on? Ah... I don't necessarily agree with everything necessarily agree with everything he does, but that's him and that's his personality. And that's what works for him. Lleyton's a completely different cat when you get him off the court. He's very shy, he's quiet, he's polite and when he gets on the court, he fires up and on the court, he fires up and that's what makes him perform. That's what he needs to do. You were seeded 7th of 9 children. I think that's the correct terminology, isn't it? correct terminology, isn't it? Which means there's 11 in your family. What are you like when you all get together? We don't get together together? We don't get together that much any more because we have families of our own, all over the place. When we were kids there was place. When we were kids there was a lot of fighting and now, it's just great to see each other and whether we play golf with some of the brothers or go for a surf with a couple of the other brothers couple of the other brothers because we're all doing different things we're all doing different things and the girls - they're great cooks, actually. They're great. The boys aren't good cooks? We chose not to. We chose to do the outside work. Is that right? (Laughs) No... we have great get-togethers, and generally that comes around Christmas time. To be No. 1 in your

sport, in any sport, you have to be obsessive. How did your family help you with that obsession? With loft sporting careers you have to start doing it when you're younger, and one of the biggest sacrifices my family did was let my mother travel with me. And there was another stage, where you came from nine kids, we always abused the other kids, we always abused the other one or said little niggly things to put the other person down and we had to change that whole way of thinking. My parents would say, okay now we have to start being a bit more positive and stop calling Pat that or whatever. There was a whole shuffle in our mind set as well. To support you in your career? Yeah. It's a natural thing for brothers and sisters to trash each other. It really is, and... Was there resentment there? No, I don't think resentment is really the word. They used to call me the golden child there for a little while. Maybe there was a bit of resentment there. But they were very supportive, and I don't think they would do - they wouldn't have it would do - they wouldn't have it any other way as far as I'm aware. Because they all basically became Team Rafter one way or another, they all pitched in? Yeah, I think there was - they all had to do part, but it there was - they all had to do their part, but it was mainly, I think, that not having - not having mum there at the advertisement when there at the advertisement when they were going through high school and all those really tough years, mum would always be there for a lot of it but obviously I was doing school as well, but there were certain times when they needed mum and she wasn't there. As you became more successful, there successful, there were times times where the family also pulled you back into line, where they thought you've changed. I was good in '94, you should have asked me then. I you should have asked me then. I got to 20 in the world ando and they to 20 in the world ando and they just beat me down and said you're far too cocky for where you're at. And ta was true. You start to lose reality of where you're going, and that was important. I thought I'd made it and I was going made it and I was going around - that was just going through a different stage of my life where I was trying to deal with what was

coming my way. The first reaction coming my way. The first reaction is usually the ego kicks in, you don't want to hear it. Was that hard to hear? It was. I reckon it only took a couple of weeks of being at home before I was back to sort of before I was back to sort of abusing everyone, them abusing me again and that's exactly what I needed, to that's exactly what I needed, to get home and get a lot of that. 'Cause I'd been on the road away from it and people telling you you're going to be this and that. I think a little bit of that a good. little bit of that a good. Obviously not too much, you don't want to knock someone's self-esteem around too much. In the early days you travelled with your brother Jeff travelled with your brother Jeff who is a pretty fair tennis player. is a pretty fair tennis player. Then the family came to the row the family came to the row liesation that you had the real shot at it. Jeff stalled with his tennis career a bit. He did ak punk fur and thought he might as well play some tennis again after he finished his his degree. He coached me for quite a while. It was tough travelling. You would share a bed sometimes. We had some great memories, though. Some of the places you'd stay, we had some really good times. Jeff had some really good times. Jeff and I had a personality clash as well, and little things like I'd say, Jeff, can you get my tennis Jeff, can you get my tennis racquets from the stringer to pick up and he'd go, get it yourself. I'd go, I gotta go out for a match, I don't want to face that crowd. I don't care. Get them yourself. That was a brother thing. That's just the way Jeff is. But in my sort of line of work, I needed sort of someone to listen to me and sort of take my abuse, 'cause I abused - not abuse, I was pretty intense, especially when e got around grand slams, I just went into my little mind set, and I was very short and grumpy and I had a couple of - my brother I had a couple of - my brother Peter then came on board, who would go then came on board, who would go and get my tennis racquets, and we had get my tennis racquets, and we had a really good relationship together, but that's nothing away from Jeff. Jeff was exactly right, but in that line of work, I sort of needed someone to help me out a bit more. How hard was it to be the centre How hard was it to be the centre of your family's expectations? Um. your family's expectations? Um... it was hard sometimes because you didn't want to upset one other person because at the end of the day, mum and dad loved everyone equally, it wasn't as if I was the stand-out, so when I hurt Jeff, I hurt my family, and I hurt my hurt my family, and I hurt my mother and father, really. The hardest thing probably I have ever done in my life, breaking up with a girlfriend or anything, was dealing with Jeff, and I went into his room, where we were staying and I just said mate, listen, I don't think we're right together. We can't work together, and we just had a really good cry together and a lot of hugs and he said yeah, I understand and then it really, really hurt Jeff as well. But then I knew I'd made the right decision, because Jeff and I just clashed too much. On the court, we would fight and that's not what we would fight and that's not what I needed. I needed someone who sort needed. I needed someone who sort of understood what I needed, and listen, it was very, very selfish thing to do, but to be where you have to go, you have to be selfish. And you have to dedicate your life to that. What don't you miss? Travel. The commitment to the sport again. Waking up every morning and taking half an hour to roll out of bed because I was just so sore. And I started not to enjoy the competition. competition as well, started to get really nervous before matches, and not enjoy going out on the court not enjoy going out on the court and hear people say, come on, Pat, and you know you're losing this match and I just thought oh no. It was killing me. That type of thing. I didn't enjoy that. Is life away didn't enjoy that. Is life away from tennis normal life, what you expected? Um... I thought I'd probably go get a job. I don't know what I was gonna do. What were you thinking? (Laughs) Like Spinal Tap, you were gonna sell shoes? I just didn't know. All I wanted was a normal life. And I wanted to go normal life. And I wanted to go down with my mates to the pub on a with my mates to the pub on a Friday night and have a couple of beers night and have a couple of beers and a steak and then take the kids to school and do all that sort of thing, and I really haven't found thing, and I really haven't found my feet just yet but that will happen, and I don't want to dive into

anything, because when I do dive into something I just go so damn hard at it that you know I block a lost things out out I just can't help myself. This time, im I just want to keep my core, I keep saying it, but it's true, the family thing. I got a new baby coming, I want to be there to see this baby grow up be there to see this baby grow up as well, 'cause my boy right now knows me as well as his mummy. Is it a fine balance for you between fine balance for you between wanting to be very clear about investing that time in your children, but that time in your children, but also moving on to something else, not leaving it too long? Yeah. But at the same time, I still probably the same time, I still probably have another two year at least to my family, where we're gonna another two year at least commitment to my family, where we're gonna do to my family, where we're gonna do a bit of travelling together and bit of travelling together and maybe live in another part of the world and I think that would be a lot of fun for Lara and myself. Where do you think that might be? Probably south of France somewhere, just south of France somewhere, just give a whole new thing, see how the kids go. It would be great. I think it would be great, be good fun. Again we're very lucky to have that opportunity. You've put money into and established the Cherish the Children foundation. You have seen lots of kids in different situations. How has that informed you with as a father with Joshua? The one thing I can't wait to do actually when Josh get as couple of years older is to take him to see these kids as well, take him to do some charity work, and it would be good for me as well 'cause I do a little bit but I could do a lot more. He's getting brought up in an environment that he has everything, he has his parents on tap, he is gonna be well supported financially, and we don't want him to be spoilt and lose perspective on life, which would be very easy for us to create for him. So I think it's gonna be great for him to see what the great for him to see what the actual world is all about and not be in this little nutshell. It seems to this little nutshell. It seems to me from what I'm hearing that while from what I'm hearing that while you want to put something back into tennis there's more you want to do with your life, even fu don't know what it is. Is it a fair summation

of you to say that somewhere in of you to say that somewhere in your life, you will invest your heart, not just your abilities, into something which is for the greater good? Well, I hope so, but you know I think we're running out of time I think we're running out of time as well. I think environmentally, it has been a really passionate thing of mine as well. That's another thing where I sort of walked away from 10 tennis as well, because I thought what am I doing, travelling round the world, getting all caught up in am I going to win Wimbledon this year or am I not when there this year or am I not when there are so many other bigger things in the world going on, not just the world, in life, you know, life's not about playing tennis. I think a lot of people would actually empathise is what you're saying. In the end, though, you have opportunity, you have to time to look, time to think. So the question is: when do you commit? Um... well, that's a good question but at this stage I think it's - I really just want to be there for the family thing and see what happens with that. But I am willing to go get involved in the cause of what is good for our kids when they get older because we want to seat world that we've had as well, for our children. That's what I'd like to see anyway. I'm sure when you do you will do it whole heartedly. You have another baby coming, may it be a lovely one. Thank you, Pat. Thank you, Andrew. People survive all sorts of terrible disasters and we wonder how. My next guest has survived something even scarier, his own family. A family so dysfunctional that if they'd lived next door to the Mansons, the Mansons would have moved out. So extraordinary has his life been, he's written three books to try and cover it and he's not even 40. Speaking from Paris on his way to Australia, to discuss his latest title 'Magical Thinking', Augusten Burroughs. Bonjour. Bonjour, Monsieur. Hello, Augusten. Thank you for being... Bonjour, Monsieur. Thank you for being on this show. Comment allez-vous? Ah, that's beyond the French that I know. And that's beyond the French that I know, so let's try it in English. 'Magical Thinking' - it's a very alluring idea. What is it? 'Magical Thinking' actually, the title came about because I had lunch with a friend of mine who was a psychologist and she mentioned one of her patients had magical thinking. And it's the ability or the belief that you control more of the world than you actually do. So, magical thinking 'light' is sort of when you're crossing the street and you think, "If I get to the other side "before the cross walk changes to 'don't walk' it'll be a good day" and magical thinking 'heavy' is when you think you can make it rain. So George Bush is magical thinking 'extreme'? Magical thinking extra, extra, extra large - yes. So where do you employ magical thinking in your life, Augusten? Actually, it's strange. I've always been sort of magical thinking. I'm someone who has always been maniacally optimistic even if there's been no reason to be. In other words, even if my life has been really horrible, I somehow believe that I can make it better. Well, you've had to employ that. Let's fill our audience in here on your life story. Your parents were, to put it politely, unusual. Your mother, you realised from an early age, was crazy. Exactly how crazy? My mother was severely manic-depressive and she wanted to be a very famous poet, so she was very dramatic and she was very broken, and my father was a very emotionally detached alcoholic professor, so you can imagine how much fun it was growing up with these people. And eventually my mother realised she couldn't raise me. So she gave me away to a psychiatrist, and he had an extended family including his own biological children and then, like, a lot of of his psychiatric patients lived in the house too. And this is a place where there were no sort of bedtimes. There were no rules. I ate, you know, medication. He gave medication out like it was candy and it was a childhood without rules. It was a free for all, and that's sort of the environment that I was raised in. Your brother had left home so you were effectively an only child with two dysfunctional parents. How did you amuse yourself, pass the time? I used to collect pennies and anything basically shiny and I would boil the pennies on the stove and then I would shine them up with polish while I watched 'Donnie and Marie'. There was your problem right there. Everything in my bedroom was covered with aluminium foil. I liked shiny, shiny, shiny, shiny. Thus Donnie and Marie - those teeth must have been like Valhalla to you. They were. All hail the teeth. You watched a lot of TV as a kid. Did you ever use to look at 'The Brady Bunch' and think, "How did that family get it so right?" Absolutely - I mean, I really, and I think a lot of kids probably looked at the Brady Bunch and longed for it. You know, having a family of six kids, and it's interesting, actually. It's almost, you know, be careful what you wish for, because I got the family with six kids. I mean, I got the Brady Bunch in a parallel universe - one in which people don't bathe and, you know, never vacuum and do a lot worse than that. Absolutely, the psychiatrist named Dr Finch, he believed that you could tell important things by reading your own poo, is that right? Yeah, he believed in toilet bowl readings and it's much like a tea-leaf reading. You know, when you drink the tea and you look at the bottom and you see the leaves that remain? Imagine the same thing looking in the toilet and the shape of what you see in the toilet tells you what kind of day you're going to have, you know? I would have thought a crap one. LAUGHTER Yeah! Maybe I'm reading... That's not right, actually. Maybe I'm reading too much into it. No, those fortunes were consistently accurate. You are exactly right. Oh, well, there you go. Crap day after day. Was there any love in your childhood, Augusten? There was. You know, in the family in the pyschiat...Dr Finch's family, I mean, as crazy as it was, there was a lot of love and there was actually a lot of fun. And when I wrote 'Running with Scissors', that's really what I focused on. I mean, my best friend was Natalie, and Natalie was the doctor's youngest daughter and we were roughly the same age, and we both sort of rolled our eyes at everything around us and it was a really, great, great friendship, and I think it helped both of us sort of get through our teenage years, which is hard enough. But it was also kind of scary because I was aware, actually, that I was living far outside of sort of mainstream society and I didn't know if I would actually come out the other end of it OK. In the middle of all this you discovered that you were gay, and you began a relationship with a 33-year-old predator called Bookman. Didn't anybody think that this was a bit weird that a 33-year-old would be with a young teenage boy? No - they...they really didn't, and he actually lived in the barn behind the house, so he was kind of like a pet. Imagine letting your kid date somebody who lives in a barn. It started off as friendship, and he was an adult who was giving me time and attention and listening to me, and then it became sexual. It was something I didn't initiate and it was something that really kind of freaked me out. But I went along with it and, you know, when you're starved for adult attention or for any attention, I mean, it's sort of horrible to say, but you really will do anything. He left quite a trail of damage for you, didn't he? Yeah, he did, you know. When I left the house, when I was, like, 17 and then when I was 18 and 19, I didn't realise how damaged I was. And it was only after I was, you know, in my 20s and then 30s, that I felt the effects of that relationship. And, I mean, I hate to sound self-helpy, you know - it's so awful, but it really did prevent me from trusting people and especially, you know, adults. And dating, you know, it made me very apprehensive and no matter how much I was aware of it it seemed like it wouldn't go away. And so I ended up just feeling completely defective for my whole adult life. Well, let's move forward. You went to New York City and then you really hit rock bottom. You got a job in the advertising industry. What appealed to you about that industry? I went from...you know what it is? It's that advertising is about optimism. You know, in other words, if a toothpaste manufacturer comes to me and they say, "We've got this toothpaste we want you to advertise, "but there's a problem. "We found out if you brush your teeth three times a day with it, "it'll cause mouth cancer." And I hear that and I'm, like, "Hey, great - now all you have to do is brush your teeth once a day." So, it really is about optimism and about putting a positive spin on something, and I was just really good at that. I'm good at finding the really shiny silver lining, if you will, on a really dark sort of cloud of a situation. So I was really successful in advertising. And, you know, bars close at 4am in New York City, so alcohol and advertising just were totally interlocked for me. I would work all day and then I would go out to bars at night downtown, you know, and hang out and I would sit in bars drinking and, you know, writing ads out on cocktail napkins. And eventually I just, after a lot of years of this... I mean, I was really high-functioning and got away with this for most of my 20s, and then when I was 30 I just started really messing up. I started missing meetings. I started, you know, calling clients during blackouts and, you know, saying things I shouldn't say. I was sort of forced into rehab. You did dry out, but then you relapsed. What was the point at which you realised, "I've got to stop this?" The point of it was about 1.5 years, 2 years after I relapsed, I lost my best friend after I got sober and that's what really caused me to relapse. I didn't care about being sober anymore and I was drunk again, and I was much worse than I ever was before. And my apartment was in, you know, absolute squalor - hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of empty wine bottles and Scotch bottles. And I realised I was actually OK with dying. But one thing bothered me. It was like having a pebble in my shoe, and that was I'd never even tried to write. It's the one thing that I'd always wanted to do and always felt like I should do since I was tiny. And it was about two weeks after that realisation that I sat down at my...my computer and I wrote the first two sentences of what would become my first novel. And they made me laugh. And I just kept on writing, and seven days later I looked up and I'd written my first novel, 'Sellevision'. And I really became happy at that point in my life. You've written three books about yourself, which have been remarkably candid. Do you leave anything for yourself? I mean, I get... Yeah, I do leave stuff for myself, but not a lot is sacred. In other words, there's not really a lot of me that I won't put in a book because I really write for me. I write so that I can constantly improve myself, but also because if I don't write I really get lost. The stories are so remarkable. Do you find that people don't believe you? You know what? Sometimes... Like, when 'Running with Scissors' first came out, people...reporters, reviewers asked me, "So, what parts of the book did you make up "and what parts did you embellish?" And that question actually just took me by complete surprise. But then that sort of went away. I think reporters began researching the book more and they began researching the doctor and they began seeing things - you know, historical newspaper articles that gave credibility to everything I said, and they spoke to, you know, other family members - my brother, for example, or perhaps other patients. And it just sort of somehow... somehow the disbelief went away. I really, you know... I don't have a problem either, as a concept, with making something up, but I've never had to so I don't. I've never had, like, a shortage of material. Clearly not. In some ways you've become a poster boy for dysfunctional families. Do you find that your fans, people that stop you in the street, come from similarly dysfunctional lives? No, actually, no. Certainly many of them do, but just as many, if not more, come from really functional lives. You know, I get so many letters and emails from people telling me, "I just read 'Running with Scissors' "and I am now sending my mother flowers every single month." You know? Which is great. I mean, that's great. And I get humbled, you know, and I never expected to feel that kind of gratitude. I'm sure, Andrew, that you actually get the same thing when you are, like, accosted at a grocery store and sometimes someone's really, really touched by something you do and you can't even crack a joke about it, you know what I mean? 'Cause they're so sincere and it sort of does humble you. It's great. That has never happened to me in my life and now I'm depressed. LAUGHTER No, no... What, do they just pelt dinner rolls at you like Camilla? Loudon Wainwright III said something lovely once. He said, "Childhood is never history. "Childhood is always there." How much of your childhood is still with you? Oh, it's all with me, and I feel in so many ways even though now I'm, like, bald and old and wrinkled, I feel still like a kid and I feel like it's true that it really is never too late to have a happy childhood, as cliche as that sounds. And it's funny, you know. In some ways the little dreams, the sort of dreams that I had when I was a little kid, some of them were to be sort of famous, you know, but the truer dreams were for connection with other people and for love, you know, and that's what the desire for fame is. The desire for fame isn't really about bright lights. It's about connecting with people, you know, but a lot of them. In those dreams, the fact that so many of them got fulfilled, it's like inside of me there's a little Augusten, you know, who's, like, eight, nine years old who's, like, you know, looking up at me going, "Thanks." Last question. If I could employ 'Magical Thinking' and exchange your extraordinary life for a more normal one but less sensational novels, would you take the swap? No. I wouldn't. You know what? I don't regret anything in my life, even when it was really lonely and when it looked impossible and when I thought, "There's no way I'm ever going to be happy." I wouldn't trade anything. Not one thing. I don't have any regrets because I like... I like the way my life is now. I love my friends, you know, and I love my partner Dennis, and I love my two French bulldogs, and I miss them. And if you change one tiny thing in your history, the smallest thing, even a dental appointment in your past, who's to say if your life would be exactly as it is today? So, no, I wouldn't. I would keep it. Augusten, I'm going to... But you could give me hair. LAUGHTER And you know I could. Augusten Burroughs, it's been great talking to you. Thanks for coming. APPLAUSE Thank you. Thank you all. That's all from Enough Rope. If you'd like to comment on the show, if you'd like to suggest a guest, or suggest yourself for Show and Tell, here's our website - It's also got a lot of pictures of myself and my guests completely naked. We'll see you next week. Till then, have a great week. Goodnight. APPLAUSE Closed Captions provided by Captioning and Subtitling International Pty Ltd