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Enough Rope With Andrew Denton -

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were, but I mean it was still talking about how disappointed we were, talking about how disappointed we drop out at all. Obviously, we were there is almost amazing, it didn't phone, which for the phones over talked for quite a long time on the speak with him? Last Wednesday, we forward to it. When did you last ridiculous, how much I was looking counting days. It was just getting and it was really exciting. I was back. We had so much stuff planned, upsetting to hear that he was going back. We had so upsetting to hear that he was going reunion? Oh yeah. It was so been so looking forward to that Indonesia to Nias. You must have coming home. He turned back to It's not easy for you. Paul was very much for being with us tonight. sister, Janelle Carter. Thank you Paul's partner Laura Ryan and Paul's sister, Janelle Carter. Thank Paul's partner Laura Ryan and Kimlin family home in Canberra is on board. Joining us now from the Kimlin family on board. Joining us now from the with heat and the number of people not having enough power to hover obviously. We were getting close to the location changed that all, wouldn't be such a big problem, but the engines shut down. Normally, it look. Approaching the hover, one of decided we'd come in for a closer shells lying on the ground. We what we thought might have been some what we thought might have been failure in the helicopter. We'd seen failure in the helicopter. We'd of the risks involved. An engine failure in the of the risks involved. An engine is some of what he said about some year to talk about Anzac Day. Here Kimlin, was a guest on the show last year to talk about Anzac Day Kimlin, was a guest on the show tsunami. One, navy lieutenant Paul mission helping the Boxing Day mission helping the box home to Australia after a 10-week and women. All were on their way killing nine Australian servicemen and women. All killing nine Australian servicemen crashed in Indonesia on Saturday., crashed in Indonesia on Saturday. know a navy Sea King helicopter REM's Michael Stipe. Most of us now extraordinary creative force that is extraordinary creative force that will be speaking with the with the will be speaking Thank you. Good evening. Shortly I

about when you first met. When you other five Anzacs, where Paul talks distinguished himself along with the other five distinguished himself along with the distinguished himself along with interview last year where Paul so I'm gonna play a bit from the I'm gonna play a bit from the as I was with him. He was fantastic. in the garden, I don't care, as long in the garden, I don't care, as sitting in the car with him, sitting sitting in the car with him, cheerfully spent hours on end just always laughing. I could have teasing me all the time but I was laughing when I was with him. He was laughing when I was with him. He just SO much fun. I was always loving, and tonnes of fun. Like , loving, and tonnes of fun. Like sensitive and sweet and caring and loving, and tonnes of sensitive and sweet and caring and a more perfect partner. He was ever met. I couldn't have asked for Paul was the most amazing man I've a sugar boost, Paul was fantastic. of red lollies as well, to give him toys and he was gonna buy him lots from buying all the loud and crazy a man Paul was? Um... well, apart Laura. Can you tell me what sort of a man Paul was? Um... well, apart Laura. Can you tell me what sort of Hugo. I hear you laughing there, really looking forward to seeing emails from him, and he was just was just thrilled. I would receive (Laughs) And yeah, he was just - he that I won't allow him to play with. to buy him all the big loud toys grown and changed and he was going many cog home to see how much he'd was just really looking forward to many cog home to see was just really looking forward to left when Hugo was 20 days old, and father in Hugo's live with gusto. He father in Hugo's live with gusto. on the role of being a surrogate pregnant with Hugo, and so Paul took pregnant with Hugo, and so Paul Mark died, I found out I was husband passed away. And soon after similar family tragedy, where my time last year, we suffered a He is a delight in my life. This time last year, we suffered He is a delight in my life. This Yes. This is my precious boy Hugo. part Paul was to play in his life? part Paul was to play in his life? Can you tell me about Hugo and the That's right, four months old. 16 weeks old, is that right? Hugo there. Janelle, Hugo is, what, really long time. I can hear baby wonderful to talk to him for such a

anniversary of Mark's death, and to preparing to deal with the time. We were - we were really Andrew. This is just such an awful isn't it? Yeah, that's right, Andrew. This isn't it? Yeah, that's right, is almost impossible to comprehend, that for you and your family, this extraordinarily strong but I know and Laura and you're both being it was. Janelle, I'm looking at you it was, everything perfect, no matter what never missed a step, he always did everything had to be perfect, he he would be checking everything, or a plane when we get in a plane, obviously he step nood a helicopter spectrum to maverick. Even when much the opposite end of the about everything, so that's pretty obsessive compulsive about just this next sentence, incredibly will probably be laughing as I say Paul was - as a lot of our friends used that word to describe Paul. No, not at all. I would never have not the man you knew, was it? that he was a maverick but that's about Paul in the comment today was about Paul in the comment today One of the unattributed comments quite well and I'm very glad he did. anyone from defence but he fooled me anyone from defence but he fooled never that keen to take up with were you? (Laughs) Ahh... no. I was keen to take up with a a navy pilot, Dili. Laura, you were never that explain running a diving business in explain running a diving business sitting in Dili. It's very hard to admit to it some time later. I was actually do for a living? I had to point did she realise what you to me whilst I was away. At what Laura again, but luckily, she wrote never really expected to hear from Timor in the next couple of weeks. I Timor in the next couple of weeks. 'cause I knew I was going away with and we just lied through our teeth were just on holidays in Canberra operators from up in Cairns and we story about being... diving tell her you did? We made up some lied about what we did. What did you lied about what we did. What did with a friend, and we just outright come up! (Laughs) No, I was in a pub come up! (Laughs) No, I was in a did you? I was hoping this wouldn't tell the truth about what you did, guys first met, you didn't exactly

because of Mark, and now we've just got to turn around and just relive both Mark's death and say goodbye both Mark's death and say goodbye to Paul in a way that I know that he would love, and it's just really, really difficult. Laura, last year we spoke privately about being the partner of somebody who is serving and having to wait and wonder, and despite and having to wait and wonder, and despite steeling yourself always despite steeling yourself always for that moment, nothing prepares you, does it? No. No, nothing - it's does it? No. No, nothing - it's kind of like you get a little bit scared at times, but you just think, alright , it's never gonna at times, but you just think, that's alright , it's never gonna happen alright , it's never gonna happen to me but when my friend first called to tell me that there'd been a crash, I just - I just got this feeling, crash, I just - I just got this feeling, this - I can't even describe it, and I'm sure only the other families can probably know what it's like, but it is - it is just the most terrible, have stopped crying every day because have stopped crying every day just realised just recently that I just realise you know, you cry a lot, and I've you deal with death, it's - it's - to somebody the other day that when absolute tragedy. I was just saying have this on top of it is just an just the most terrible, unbelievable thing. Like, I have my whole life mapped out with this person, and - and that one phone call and you and that one phone call and you just think, oh my God. There's and that one phone call and you just think, oh my God. There's a reason you wanted to speak tonight. Paul talked about the frustration that people didn't understand what it people didn't understand what it was he did up there. Yeah. I mean, he was doing an amazing job, that's certainly the case, but it was more about, like - we wanted to sort of show Paul as more than just the military pilot that he was and that show Paul as more than just the military pilot that he was and that he was so incredibly good at, but that Paul was a real person, and an amazing person at that. Really,

really unique, and that we wanted really unique, and that we wanted to show how much fun he was and and show how much fun he was and and how great he was and that - you know, he's just so completely irreplaceable. Janelle, did you irreplaceable. Janelle, did you talk with Paul about what he was irreplaceable. Janelle, did you talk with Paul about what he was doing with Paul about what he was doing in Aceh and the work he did there? No, we didn't tend to talk about that a lot. Our phone calls were mainly taken up with, how's my beautiful nephew Hugo? He wanted really to - I suppose, get away a little bit, and our conversations were always an avenue for him to perhaps forget about his work in Indonesia, his important work in perhaps forget about his work in Indonesia, his important work in Indonesia for a little while, and focus on the family that he was so focus on the family that he was so - so incredibly dedicated to. so incredibly dedicated to. Planning a farewell, Laura, is never easy a farewell, Laura, is never easy and I know there will be military protocols and ceremonies. Yeah. How do you want to farewell Paul? How do you want to farewell Paul? Well, I mean, the Defence Well, I mean, the Defence Department have been really great. They basically said we can have whatever we want, so. basically said we can have whatever we want, so... we want to have we want, so... we want to have parts of - celebrate parts of Paul's life and still incorporate some of the ceremony that was the navy that he joined so many years ago. But I joined so many years ago. But I know that he said after Mark's death and this sounds ridiculous now, that oh if I ever died, no-one would be interested like they were in Mark, 'cause Mark, we had a huge funeral for Mark, it was amazing, but he said for Mark, it was amazing, but he said to me, no-one would be interested in me like that, like God, why would anyone care? I just said to him "You silly twit. As if! said to him "You silly twit. As if!" I think this will just show so many people care, it's just - it has people care, it's just - it has just been amazing. What are the lessons to draw from Paul's life, Laura? I don't - I don't know how to sum I don't - I don't know how to sum it up in even just I don't - I don't know how to sum it up in even just a few sentences. Paul was so many amazing things to so many amazing people, but I guess in terms of his life, he - he dedicated himself wholly and solely

to whatever was his task at hand, whether it was spending time with his family or myself or his friends or planning a dinner party or or planning a dinner party or flying planes or flying helicopters, or planning a dinner party or flying planes or flying helicopters, he planes or flying helicopters, he was single-minded in his ability and single-minded in his ability and his drive to do it as best as he possibly could. And always look out for other people and other people's feelings, just... a really amazing guy. I know both of you sit here this evening representative of the nine families who are grieving today, and I appreciate your today, and I appreciate your courage in today, and I appreciate your courage in doing so, and from all of us, in doing so, and from all of us, our hearts go out to you very, very much, and thank you. Thanks, Andrew. much, and thank you. Thanks, Andrew. My next guest is a global rock superstar superstar who seems to have forgotten to live up to the cliches. He has forgotten to live up to the cliches. He has never been found snorting coke off the buttocks of groupies coke off the buttocks of groupies or trashed a hotel room. They have trashed a hotel room. They have made smart, thoughtful and sexy albums, rising to the height of their profession without losing sight of profession without losing sight of the mudz music or inventing ways to embarrass themselves. Please embarrass themselves. Please welcome Michael Stipe. embarrass themselves. Please welcome Michael Stipe. It's fantastic to have you here. Thank you. I thought we would kick off with a a look at you on stage on the current world tour. This is you with your current single, Electron Blue. SONG: # I was gaining speed on you # It's all you want to was gaining speed on you # It's all you want to do # You # You know where to run # You run electron where to run # You run electron blue # And that's it. Thank you for

coming! Good, thank you! The sphrip is a great look. What's that about? A qui kret cross-promotion for the is a great look. What's that about? A qui kret cross-promotion for the Incredibles? I had the stripe idea before their movie came out. They stole it from me, I believe. When people go to see a show, they don't really want to see the same person they might see walking down the street. It's a bit of theatre. You you said as a kid, you were perceptive to a point that other kids weren't. I said that to you? You did say that to me, yes. In what way? Emotionally, more than anything. what way? Emotionally, more than anything. I had an incredibly happy childhood, but whenever something was going on in the world or certainly within my family, and the adults were a bit frantic, I seemed to be the one that broke away from the sand pit and would walk over the sand pit and would walk over and tug on someone's shird and say "What's happening?" Your dad was in the Air Force... Army. You the Air Force... Army. You travelled a lot with your family. the Air Force... Army. You travelled a lot with your family. You spent a couple of years when you were couple of years when you were fairly young in Germany as a kid. You have said that you can remember every said that you can remember every day of that time. What was so pungent about that experience? That was a slight exaggeration for a slight exaggeration for a journalist but it was a period of my life. There was something about being picked up out of what I knew, basically the south at that point, we had kind of travelled around the southern states of the we had kind of travelled around the southern states of the United States, and moving to this faraway place across the ocean. I remember being on the plane and throwing up and my mom telling my dad I was gonna throw up and same hig, "Stop saying that because he will do it" and of course I did. (Laughter) I used to vomit a lot actually when used to vomit a lot actually when we travelled, now that I think about it. We had a signal where I travelled, now that I think about it. We had a signal where I would say "stop" in the car and they learned to stop immediately. There was a certain tone to it? I would just open the door and vomit and we'd be on our way. For a living now, you just travel the world. now, you just travel the world... I haven't thrown newspaper a long time. How did we start on this? Germany. Germany was a place that I

just had - I don't know why there, but I was 7 years old when we moved there and we were there for 1.5 years, and it just resonates to years, and it just resonates to this day. Your dad was a chopper pilot day. Your dad was a chopper pilot in Vietnam I And Korea. Your mum would say "Look for him on the evening news." I think it was her way of trying to connect three very young children to why our father was not there and what he was doing. And it worked. They would interrupt in the late 60s, the Flinstones cartoon late 60s, the Flinstones cartoon was a prime-time TV show. They would interrupt it for live footage from Vietnam. My mother would say "Watch for your father." We would say "I think I saw him" over and over again. It was her way of, at that time, transcontinental phone calls were not possible, certainly from Vietnam, and the letters he would write and the pictures he would write and the pictures he would send were coming from this very faraway place. You spent every Christmas with your family, is that right? As many as you can? Every single one, yeah. What's a Stipe family Christmas like? I'm a bit of a sap, which shows in the work and my contribution to what we do as a band. What do you mean by a sap? I'm sentimental. I'm - I tread that line carefully, I think, as a lyricist and artist, or I try to. lyricist and artist, or I try to. In being a man in the late 20th being a man in the late 20th century and now the 21st century, showing insecurity and showing insecurity and showing sentimentality and showing vulnerability particularly is not something that I think people are that used to. But I got that really. Anyway, back to Christmas. We do Anyway, back to Christmas. We do all the Christmas things. We sit around, have a big dinner, and we trim the

tree, and my parents go to a tree, and my parents go to a sunrise service, you know, open presents. Is it a big present family? This may have been another thing you exaggerated for a journalist but exaggerated for a journalist but is it true that you can remember every present you got since you were 6 or 7? No. There's a lot of misquotes 7? No. There's a lot of misquotes in music journalism, more so than even American news media, which is hard to imagine. But particularly - certain parts of the world but certainly certain parts of the world but certainly in the UK, they tend to take one little thing and turn it into an entire story. I have into an entire story. I have noticed actually that the Australian gossip magazines are very, very good. Is that right, good in getting it wrong or getting it right? I was reading one on the plane on my way here today, and it's all about celebrity fatties. And one of the celebrity fatties is the one who told me that the celebrity fatties is the one who told me that the Australian magazines here are really awesome, it was Courtney Love, who is doing great, I'm happy to say. But she is one of the celebrity fatties. She was put on a bit of weight, now was put on a bit of weight, now that she's clean and sober, which is awesome, but all the other people are people that are real thin and they just caught 'em at a bad angle. I don't know how many people really believe that stuff. If Courtney believe that stuff. If Courtney Love finds herself in a magazine as a celebrity fattie... She loves it! Could we bring in the time travelling table, please? Oh dear. Relax, it's alright. I wondered Relax, it's alright. I wondered what that thing was. A peat of modern sculpture from Melbourne or something. It's something sculpture from Melbourne or something. It's something Christto left me. I want to take you back to when you were 15. Oh dear God! Are these real? No, they're not sadly. these real? No, they're not sadly. A night where you got intimate with two kilos of cherries, pati Smith's album Horses and possibly a lava lamp. Not a lava lamp, no. I will get that part. That's one tidy rock

get that part. That's one tidy rock superstar, ladies and gentlemen! That night when you were 15 when That night when you were 15 when you sat up with the cherries and Patti Smith, talk us through it. No talk show has ever gone to such great lengths to bring back a memory. lengths to bring back a memory. This record came out in 1975, I was 15 years old. My knowledge of music years old. My knowledge of music was fairly limited to what my parents listened to and then what I heard listened to and then what I heard on the listened to and then what I heard on the radio which was pretty eclectic at the time. But I liked Benny and the Jets by Elton John and Rock On by David Essex, until this record. by David Essex, until this record. I found out about it through a newspaper that I got, a newspaper that I got, a subscription to by accident, from New York city called the Village Voice. They were talking about this Nascent at scene at a club there they were calling punk rock and she was a huge part punk rock and she was a huge part of it. I bought the album the day it came out, sat up all night came out, sat up all night listening to it, ate a whole bowl of cherries, threw up and decided that morning that threw up and decided that morning that I would dedicate my life to being in a band. I don't know, it was a very naive decision to make that I would dedicate my life to being in a band. I didn't even know that I could sing at that point. that I could sing at that point. But I could. It didn't come as a surprise to those around you. This is your grad school photo from your high school graduation book. They air bushed my face. I had the worst acne, as you might be able to see from the cameras here. Is that right? Terrible. Underneath, your classmates listed you as future classmates listed you as future rock star. Was their image of what a star. Was their image of what a rock star was the same as yours? No. I will say this, this is probably a little too brutally honest little too brutally honest for television but I never thought of myself as a very cool person. I think a lot of people that wind up being public figures, there might being public figures, there might be some degree of insecurity that some degree of insecurity that leads you to desire that kind of attention. I consider myself to

still be kind of a nerd, and not particular particularly talented or attractive or interesting or intelligent or anything else. I used to wonder why my friends hung out with me. Then my friends hung out with me. Then of course a bit later in life, I figured out that I do have figured out that I do have qualities that are worth figured out that I do have qualities that are worth while and the degree to which I apply myself as an artist, as a songwriter, is at the very least, absolutely sincere and giving everything that I can. And that counts for something. Counts for a lot. Let's talk about you as for a lot. Let's talk about you as a songwriter. Even those who don't know your music probably know this. This is REM's best-known song This is REM's best-known song though I'm sure many would dispute not This is REM's best-known song though I'm sure many would dispute not necessarily their best, Losing my Religion SONG: # That's me in the spotlight # Losing my religion # Tryin' to keep an up with you # And I don't know if I can do it # Oh no I've said too I don't know if I can do it # Oh no I've said too much # I haven't said enough APPLAUSE╝Yellow╛ That's me with hair! That's you in the corner with hair. The black art of song writing, where does a great song start? Is start? Is it in the heart, in the mind, in the fingers, where? There are a lot of songs in our extensive catalogue that I There are a lot of songs in our extensive catalogue that I wish I had not tried so hard to finish writing. The ones that I'm --that I most love are the ones that came from somewhere else. There's from somewhere else. There's nothing whoo* whoo* or spiritual or higher or holier than thou about that, or holier than thou about that, it's really kind of maybe a stream of consciousness, God knows. Anyway, the best songs like that one, consciousness, God knows. Anyway, the best songs like that one, I honestly have no idea where it came from. Do you sometimes look at your lyrics after you've written them

lyrics after you've written them and think what the hell does that mean? Yeah! It's okay for it to be nonsensical. You tell me what Bob Dylan is singin' about. I don't know. Some of the best songs in the world don't make any linear sense whatsoever, programs the best songs don't. So it doesn't have to have whatsoever, programs the best songs don't. So it doesn't have to have a narrative or follow a train of thought that makes any sense at all. It just has to be good and make you feel something when you hear it. Interestingly, on your new album, the song I wanted to be wrong, it probably has the most direct probably has the most direct lyrics you have written, talking about the state of the US post 9/11, state of the US post 9/11, everybody is humming a song, I don't understand. Last October you and Springsteen and Pearl Jam understand. Last October you and Springsteen and Pearl Jam and Dixie Chicks went on the Vote for Change tour to nine states, 28 cities. tour to nine states, 28 cities. What were you hoping to achieve? What we wanted George W. Bush the fuk oust the White House and we wanted John Kerry in. APPLAUSE --the fuck out Kerry in. APPLAUSE --the fuck out of the White House. And it didn't work. The other night in your concert, the White House. And it didn't work. The other night in your concert, The other night in your concert, you dedicated the strong Strange --the song Strange Currencies to Michael Hutchence. We're talking about Kurt Cobain and River Phoenix, you said what was at the core of of all of you watt your vulnerabilities. I'm curious how it is you've survived your vulnerabilities when they didn't. your vulnerabilities when they didn't. I'm very lucky, I guess. I honestly don't know how to answer that. I've never thought about it that. I've never thought about it in that way. You did once say if that way. You did once say if Murmur had sold 5 million, you wouldn't be alive today. He was under immense pressure, that guy, and he had a pressure, that guy, and he had a lot of physical problems and hes with a drug addict. I kind of maintain and this is my stupid theory and who knows, this is my stupid theory and who knows, that people that - I don't even want to say it on TV, to tell you the truth. You don't have to

you the truth. You don't have to say it. I will do a linear version of it. I will do a linear version of it which is that as a performer, whether you're a Chinese acrobat or a sports figure, basketball player, rugby player or certainly if you're an actor, singer, musician, the amount of adrenaline coursing through your body is unbelievable. It's the most powerful drug that I have ever taken and I did a lot of experimenting when I was very young. I think that people that have that kind of adrenaline as a part of their life maybe are just looking for a balance. And that balance might be in drugs or alcohol. And it's self-medicating, you know, and sometimes it's a slippery slope. Rather than asking you to comment on curt or River, I'm interested in what made you strong, because other people, Thom Yorke from Radiohead have turned to you, how do I deal with that? I've been trying to disperse that kind of - there's disperse that kind of - there's this idea that people come to me. I am kind of like I'm offering advice kind of like I'm offering advice all the time and I try to be really careful about that because I don't know anything, but I really don't. It's really that what we do is a very particular thing, and as what you do. What you do is incredibly specific. There might be... a hundred television talk show hosts around the world, right, and and if you met another one over drinks, what would you discuss, what would you talk about? I'd just kill them. You'd have to, wouldn't you? No, if you're talking about what you do, then you talk about how you talk to people, how you open them up, does my hair look alright? Your hair looks great. Sorry, I shouldn't looks great. Sorry, I shouldn't have mentioned the hair, I'm sorry! Years of therapy later, I'm fine with it! (Laughter) anyway, it's really like people that have this very peculiar job coming together and talking, and in that talk, in that talking, you know, I might

that talking, you know, I might have experienced something that Thom Yorke hasn't experienced, I might have gone through a period of self-doubt or searching that he's just come up on for the first time. So knowing that that conversation So knowing that that conversation is possible might ease the way a possible might ease the way a little bit, or at the very least, knowing that you're not the only person who's going through that. Form is the 25th anniversary of your first ever gig, and I didn't get you anything. I'm terribly sorry. You brought all this stuff. You talked about the unusualliness of the job you're in and the pressures it brings. How have it brings. How have you reretained the friendships with the other members of your band over 25 years? That's not easy. No, it's not. At this point, you know, we love each other very deeply and there's a lot of - there's immense amounts of respect for each other, and we also know each other better, probably, than anyone else on this living earth. What brought us together in the first place, and again I'm a the first place, and again I'm a bit of a sap, was a love of music and that's what's keptd us going. How have you looked after each other? We have incredible other? We have incredible throw-down anxiety attack kind of fights, and it's all the horrible stuff, but it's real, you know. That's what makes it, you know, I think. We've been to 29 countries since January 1. 29. And we sat down, myself, the drum drummer, two other people that I work with, at a table the other night over fish and chips and night over fish and chips and wrote down on a napkin, who can get to down on a napkin, who can get to the end of it first and we all got there. It took - one guy forgot Latvia. You'll never work there again! One last thing for you. You have a book called the Book of Me, that's right? That's a bits of an exaggeration. It's an idea, it hasn't quite formed yet. What's the idea? Are we getting to the plane ticket thing? Sure. You collect boarding passes? I do. Sugar packets. Oh look! I can't believe it! There it is. This is the list it! There it is. This is the list of all the places you've been to? You've got 27. I got 27 out of the YouI 29. You've got 27. I got 27 out of the 29. That's not bad. You have 29. That's not bad. You have crossed out Latvia. No, I didn't. Ang Rillie. No, I just made that up. I got Latvia, No. 11. What's the idea of the Book of Me. Things like that, that I'll look at 10 years from now and I'll go "Good God, we had fish and chips in Melbourne. had fish and chips in Melbourne." I just paste stuff in books. I bought the paste but it's in my bag, I don't really do it. We're going to start it. Wendy, could you bring start it. Wendy, could you bring out the special... Oh God! Hi, Wendy. Wendy, Michael. Is that a spider? What are you trying to do? I What are you trying to do? I figured if you collect stuff from places if you collect stuff from places you go to, I was going to give you a choice of things from Australia. That is wrong! I'm sorry! APPLAUSE That is wrong! I'm sorry! APPLAUSE╝White╛ I'm sorry. I have gone to some trouble here. That's a funnel web spider. For God's sake don't touch it. Is it deadly poison? Totally! There's probably some insurance guy quaking in his shoes. Are they really poisonous? He will kill me dead? Yeah, well, eventually. Come on! Let's open it. Let's throw it out there and see what happens! (Laughter) oh my God, I killed him. No, you didn't. He is playing dead. I'm gonna put that right back where it came from He has got your scent, he is sending a message to others sending a message to others now. They'll find you! They're They'll find you! They're Australian matches. This is a cricket protector. (Laughter) For which protector. (Laughter) For which part of the anatomy? Where do you think? I just came from Japan, so it looks like a face mask! (Laughter) It's

for there. Got it, yep. Okay. And this is - this should be our flag, actually. It's a crushed tin of beer. I'm sorry. This is now a futile exercise, 'cause I thought one of these would interest you. ╝Yellow╛' Certain I won't get out ╝Yellow╛' Certain I won't get out of the country with the spider. Consider it gone. Would any of Consider it gone. Would any of these suit you for the Book of Me? I think it would have to be something flat, so I would use the matches. And I would flat flatden that out like that and I would forever remember this great afternoon that we spent together, evening that we spent together and the fact you tried to kill me with ta spider. I said in the introduction you see the world differently. We love you for it. Michael Stipe, thank you. Thank you so much. There is a saying, so much. There is a saying. so much. There is a saying... for evil to triumph, it requires good men to do nothing. Well, what if you're a good man and you do all you can and evil still triumphs? Would you question everything you hold to be true? Or keep fighting? As a UN peacekeeper, my next guest has been to every hellhole on earth - Bosnia, Haiti, Rwanda, Cambodia. With two colleagues, he's written a book that rocked the UN to its core, called 'Emergency Sex And Other Desperate Measures'. It's the story of what happens when you try and save the world and lose yourself along the way. From New York City, please welcome Andrew Thomson. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE Andrew, welcome to Enough Rope. Where did this desire to serve other people, to do good, come from? Andrew, I think it came from my upbringing. My parents were missionaries in the Solomon Islands and Fiji. I guess that's one of the reasons why I decided to go to med school. I thought maybe simplistically that, with a medical degree, I could help people. And so I kind of got into medicine just like that. While you were in medical school you met a Cambodian man by the name of Veri and he changed the course of your life, didn't he? In what way? Yeah, this is a guy who was one of about 60 doctors out of 600 who survived Pol Pot's Killing Fields. He got out with his family to the refugee camps in Thailand and then was taken on as a refugee to New Zealand. And I befriended him - I just helped him out with his studies, And little by little, I learned his story And little by little, I learned his story and then the story of Cambodia and the Killing Fields, and, I guess, from that moment, wanted to go there. It was an accident really. Well, it was an accident that changed everything for you. You went to Cambodia with the Red Cross, when the UN rolled into town for the first election since the overthrow of Pol Pot. How did their arrival change the city? You know you could feel it coming. I remember when I first arrived in Phnom Penh in 1990. There were only very small number of foreigners in the city, and you could feel the UN presence arriving. There were Paris Peace Accords in 1991, and this great machine sort of arrived within a space of three or four months in country... ..in a county which had been cut off. You couldn't fly from Bangkok to Phnom Penh, Cambodia's capital, for years. So suddenly, you have 20,000 Blue Helmets and 3,000 civilians and I think, 4,000 or 3,000 civilian police. Phnom Penh was just inundated with UN people. It was quite extraordinary and there was an enormous euphoria that we could actually make peace in Cambodia and run an election and change that country. That was the noble part. It also transformed the city into a bit of a party city too, didn't it? Yeah, I mean it did everything that supply and demand in balance does. There there weren't enough houses, so the prices of apartments went up through the roof. I remember New Yorkers saying they were paying more in Phnom Penh for an apartment than in New York. Traffic stalled... You know, a lot of the UN troops didn t really know how to drive, so they crashed their cars. It was a wild scene. You mentioned before this idea that the UN would run the country in '93. Saddam had been pushed out of Kuwait, the Berlin wall had fallen, Yeltsin had stood on a tank in Moscow... The talk was of the new world order, the chance to be on the right side of history. At this time, what did you think the UN was capable of achieving? You know, Andrew, maybe it sounds crazy now and I know we were naive and young, but we thought that UN peacekeepers could put an end to all of these conflicts that had been driven by the Cold War and we were going to stop war everywhere. That's... A lot of people who were wiser and and older than the three of us Ken, Heidi and myself really thought that. We signed on to that and you could feel it, you're right. There was a tremendous euphoria. It was a new age and we really bought into it. You also bought into what it was to be with the UN - you talk about being a convert to the lifestyle, about jeeps and helicopters and planes lined up around the world to take you to war zones everywhere. Aside from doing good, how much was the lifestyle also a rush? Oh, for sure. I remember thinking, "You know, they're paying me to do this?" "I mean, I'll do this for nothing." And it was one of those rare times for me when I knew at the time The story of the book is that heady The story of the book is that heady point from the election to The story of the book is that heady point from the election to the point from the election to the horrors that followed. Before we horrors that followed. Before we get to the fall, which was considerable, to the fall, which was considerable,the title of your book, considerable,the title of your book,what does the "emergency sex" refer to? The joke in the book, I don't get any sex till chapter 4, don't get any sex till chapter 4, so by that stage, it was a big emergency, but the actual title comes from Heidi. She's in Somalia with her boyfriend and they're with her boyfriend and they're walking through the US embassy walking through the US embassy compound, a bit like in the green zone in Baghdad now, was always sniped at and it was mortared every night. They're wandering through there and a snipe there and a sniper opens up on them. They dive into the sand and all of They dive into the sand and all of a sudden it's over and Heidi just

describes a feeling of knowing she would die and then suddenly having her life back and this huge rush of adrenaline and she just - she says adrenaline and she just - she says I wanted to climb into my boyfriend's skin, to get under his skin, just skin, to get under his skin, just to feel alive and human. So she pushes him into a tea shack and rips his clothes off and they make love clothes off and they make love right there, in the middle of a war zone and afterwards she is crying and wondering what the hell is going on. She calls that emergency sex. She wondering what the hell is going on. She calls that emergency sex. She actually says I think I have post traumatic sex disorder, but that's where the title comes from. I feel sorry for all her other boyfriends! It will be impossible to live up to that sexual experience. It was impossible to live up to writing about that, Ken and myself, after Heidi had written her sex scenes we looked at each other and said "We can't beat that. Let's write about something can't beat that. Let's write about something else." I'm impressed you got to sex in commap ter 4. If it was my book, it wouldn't have been until the index! Well done, you! (Laughs) It wasn't a footnote! (Laughs) Now you're boasting! You talk about after Cambodia, and you went to Haiti with the UN, where your job was to get information, to sort of document the brutality that had been used to depose sort of document the brutality that had been used to depose the elected President to try to persuade to -- President to try to persuade to --the world to intervene. Even in protected zone, however, people protected zone, however, people were being murdered. What did your daily work involve as a doctor? My job work involve as a doctor? My job was to document these people's injuries if they survived. More often than not we were just picking up bodies off the street every morning. not we were just picking up bodies off the street every morning. First of all to get them treated because as you said, they weren't safe in the government hospitals. There was a case where the killers came back into the hospital when the guy was being praited on, and threatened being praited on, and threatened the doctor and the nurses and just killed him on the operating table. And this wasn't isolated, it had gone on for years. I couldn't believe that kind of brutality. The places that I'd been, believe that kind of brutality. The places that I'd been, the Red Cross protected you, and you didn't come

into a hospital. Checked your weapons at the door. Haiti was an enormous shock for me. In the enormous shock for me. In the middle of all this madness bs you came across a US luxury cruise ship. across a US luxury cruise ship. What happened? That was insane! I went with a friend, just up the coast, I had to with a friend, just up the coast, I had to get away one day and we were driving looking for a deserted beach. We came round a corner and over a hill and down at the bottom of the cliff were hundreds of partying. of the cliff were hundreds of people partying off a cruise ship and the ship towered over the beach and they'd bought everything with them. They'd bought the barbecue and the chairs and the food. It looked like some Miami beach pool chairs and the food. It looked like some Miami beach pool party and it was insane. And so we sort of crashed their party, and couldn't quite figure out who was crazier, them or us, 'cause they'd landed there and they didn't even know there and they didn't even know they were in Haiti. I think the cruise ship had told them that they were ship had told them that they were in - I don't know where they thought they were. So we started talking to them and said do you know what's going on here? They said "No, it's going on here? They said "No, it's a nice beach." At going on here? They said "No, it's a nice beach." At a certain point after we'd partied a bit, a whistle went and they all climbed back on this huge cruise ship and sailed off. We were wondering what the off. We were wondering what the hell had happened. Then hu to go back to the murders and the mutilations, which continued until the US which continued until the US finally in the middle of that fire fight as where my co-authors were, they were where my co-authors were, they soldiers were killed in Somalia President Clinton, and when those 19 soldiers were killed in President Clinton, and when those 19 President Clinton, and when those you're right. It was a young complete loss of American nerve were packing to flee? It was a the panic like around you as you UN ordered you to evacuate. What was UN ordered you to evacuate. What sight of the shore in Haiti and the troops were on turned back within lost their nerve. The ship the US now know as Black Hawk Down. The US 18 US rangers were killed in what we now know as now know 18 US rangers were killed in what we 18 US rangers were killed in what they could do that, over in Somalia, decided to send in troops. Before

countryside, which is beautiful, by driving through the Rwanda houses we rented. So you'd be the bottom of our gardens in the We would find decomposing bodies at the bottom We would find decomposing bodies at large cemetery, the whole country. Rwanda, after the genocide, was one try not to think about it too much. business and you keep working and know. You go about your daily an environment like that? I don't and cooked with. How do you live in that smell, on the utensils you ate was in your hair, on your clothes, flesh and it was in everything, it Ken, as smelling of decomposing flesh and it was in Ken, as smelling of decomposing described by one of your co-author, died in Rwanda. It was a country trial. 800,000 people conservatively trial. 800,000 people let's put some of these killers on look we can't stop these wars, but investigation unit? My logic was Rwanda and set up our forensic corpses in Haiti. Will you go to expert, but've dealt with a lot of said, look, you're not a forensic the new war crimes tribunal and they said, look, you're not a the new war crimes tribunal and they the new war crimes tribunal and I got a call from someone senior in addictive quality of it, really. And addictive quality of it, really. but wanting to go and that's the of stuck with not believing in it peacekeeping any more. So I was kind peacekeeping any more. So I was Haiti, but I didn't believe in guilt for what had happened in that I was useless. I had a lost Headquarters and I was bored. I felt Headquarters and I was bored. I working as a GP at the U ne. working as a GP at the U ne. ended up in New York, treating - the addictive quality of the life. I the addictive quality of the life. partly what you mentioned before - Why did you need that? I think needed to be in another war zone. to Rwanda, because in your words you to Rwanda, because in your words ashamed. 15 months later, you went was terrible. It was just - I was that you were there to help them, it that you were there to help them, when you'd made promises to them feeling of abandoning a whole people when you'd feeling of abandoning a whole people feeling of abandoning a whole hill. It was demoralising. Just the city saw it because the city's on a into the Caribbean and the whole American peace keepers sailed off loss of nerve and the boat with and that triggered, as you say, the civilians listening on the radio,

taken into been lost during the genocide and taken into Zaire. So her work was pretty fulfilling and she actually turned up at the mass grave one day, and there was this blonde woman, know they're saying, why did you do this, why did you know they're saying, why did you do this, why did you people abandon us and then of course where was the and then of course where was the God that I believed n the God that's merciful and protects the weak? Certainly not in Rwanda during that genocide. I mean, God took a genocide. I mean, God took a holiday or a snooze or maybe just didn't care, I don't know. I don't really have that straight yet, but a lot have that straight yet, but a lot of questioning, sure. What astonishes me is in the middle of all of this, you found love. The woman you went on to marry, you found love. The woman you went on to marry, Suzanne, a Red Cross worker. How on earth in this environment, literally an entire country of decomposing bodies, do you motivate yourself... Isn't it strange? I know. It was the last thing on my mind. Suzanne was working for the international committee of the Red Cross, who are a great organisation and she was working on tracing children who'd been lost during the genocide and you look into their eyes and you they were asking me in their eyes, speak the language but I knew what for their loved ones and I didn't survivors who would come and wait inside the graves and looking up at graves or knee deep in cadavers organisation, standing on those mass organisation, standing on those I wondered about my own understood and believed, every day. everything that I thought I understood and believed, every day. everything that I thought I about God? Yeah, I wondered about are missionaries, do you wonder graves, having come from parents who graves, having come from parents you were working in these mass and in full view of the world. As they happened, yet they did happen knew about these massacres before it really was. The UN, we now know, out. It was something out of hell, and picks trying to pull the bodies bodies in it and people with shovels bodies in it and people with grave open with 1,000 decomposing bodies in it and people with grave open with 1,000 decomposing corner and there is'd be a mass gorgeous country and come around a there's mist and it's just a hills, so there banana groves and the way, it's the land of a thousand hills, so the way, it's the land of a

and there was this blonde woman, you know, attractive and I didn't have my head on that at all but there my head on that at all but there she was, and that's something that I was, and that's something that I you know seize Anne, we just had a was, andknow seize Anne, we just had know seize Anne, we just had a daughter three months ago. She is born really out of daughter three months ago. She is born really out of the love that blossomed in that horror and I blossomed in that horror and I can't explain it, but it is kind of wonderful, and unexpected, for sure. Hard to tell your daughter when she is older that your eyes met across is older that your eyes met across a crowded grave? I wonder what she'll think of both of us but think of both of us but particularly me when she is old enough to read that book. But that's - that's been part of the positive thing about writing it. That part of the positive thing about writing it. That you don't come writing it. That you don't come home from these missions and these war zones and sit down with your loved ones and say, here is what happened, here is everything that happened in chronological order. You don't even talk, really. Having put it on paper, it's a lot easier to deal with it now. You went through intense depression while still working as a peace keeper after Bosnia and you talk about this in the book, a moment where you came very close to the book, a moment where you came very close to suicide. What got you to that point and what stopped you from taking that course of action? I think I got ground down by something the mass grave work and Bosnia, although the death toll was much less than the Rwanda genocide, was worse in a way, because the UN set up safe havens for Muslim - vulnerable Muslim civilians, and those Muslims believed the UN's promises of protection. Again, we made promises that we didn't keep and a lot of people died and when the Serbs overran these safe havens, the UN troops surrendered. At one the UN troops surrendered. At one of them, 8,000 Muslim men and boys them, 8,000 Muslim men and boys were slaughtered. We were digging up those graves. So I had this those graves. So I had this terrible kind of struggle within myself that I believed intensely in kind of struggle within myself that I believed intensely in the work. I believed intensely in the work. We were doing historical work, digging up evidence of Europe's largest massacre since World War II. At the same time, it was grinding me down and destroying me. When I read my diaries from those days, it's just one day after another of despair,

but I think I was so close to it that I didn't really see what shape I was in. I had become kind of a zombie, just going and doing one I was in. I had become kind of a zombie, just going and doing one zombie, just going and doing one day after another. And I think the danger is that you don't know how low you've sunk because you keep low you've sunk because you keep moving and and you're kind of moving and and you're kind of afraid to stop and that's the dangerous point, when you stop. So I came point, when you stop. So I came back to New York and Suzanne had gone on to work in Columbia, and I visited her there and I do, I write about this in the book and I think this in the book and I think because I'd gone there on holiday, while I'd gone there on holiday, while she was working, I had a lot of time to sit was working, I had a lot of time to sit around the hotel swimming pool and reflect on the violence that and reflect on the violence that I'd seen, and I remember thinking I can't go on, I walked up to my can't go on, I walked up to my hotel room which was on the fourth floor and hung out and hung out on the ledge, and thought, you know, I'm gonna do it. And then I had this crazy thought, which is a medical one, I guess, of wait a minute if doi it from here, wait a minute if doi it from here, I will not die, I will end wait a minute if doi it from here, I will not die, I will end up a paraplegic, it's not high enough. Then because I had Suzanne, I thought what will she do, coming back to this hotel room to find the guy she loves dead? And I think at that moment, I just pulled back but that moment, I just pulled back but I rerealise that I was in real danger. And that surprised me, in a way. I thought being a doctor I would know myself better than that, but obviously I was blind to it. You talk about but obviously I was blind to it. You talk about the betrayals of Rwanda and Haiti and Bosnia. We of children in the care of UN peace keepers being raped and abused by them. Who do you hold responsible for the UN failures? For example, for the UN failures? For example, we wrote about peace keepers, UN peace keepers raping vulnerable Cambodian women, particularly the keepers raping vulnerable Cambodian women, particularly the Bulgarian contingent. We put that in there because everyone knew they were doing it, in Cambodia, these guys were recruited from the prisons, were recruited from the prisons, and they behaved like animals. And this has gone on in UN peacekeeping has gone on in UN peacekeeping since then. It's exploded into the

then. It's exploded into the scandal in Congo now but it's been going on for a long time. We wrote about our civilian bosses, some civilian bosses, some of them civilian bosses, some of them taking kickbacks. Everyone now it was kickbacks. Everyone now it was going on, particularly in some of the African missions. Now you have this enormous international krim enormous international criminal scandal of the Iraq oil scandal of the Iraq Oil For Food Program, the mind boggles with the billions of dollars that have gone missing. We wrote about - and we've talked about UN peace keepers talked about UN peace keepers making promises to protect vulnerable civilians and then walking away and doing nothing in the face of genocides and today you have Darfur, where it's going on again, and it's almost like the chickens are coming home to roost for everything we wrote about and you have to blame the bosses. They can't sit above this and say they didn't know or they're surprised it happened. This is one of is one of the things that drives is one of the things that drives you crazy at the UN, that the senior people are unaccountable for all their actions, and that's one of their actions, and that's one of the reasons we wrote and I think maybe explains the UN's reaction against the book. What about the man at the top, cove fee Annan? Do you believe he's also culpable? He said that himself. I mean, my opinion of cove fee Annan is coloured by having worked in Rwanda after the genocide and having worked in Bosnia after the genocide, and so he was in charge of the peace keepers during these two genocides and he did and said nothing in Rwanda while the death toll went from 10,000 to 50 death toll went from 10,000 to 50 to 100 to 500, kept silent and did nothing. Same thing in Bosnia when sleb nits sa fem. Although he startsed to apologise, he has not been held accountable. I would been held accountable. I would think you should lose your job if on your watch a million people die. I would think the last thing that should happen, in an organisation whose really only strength is a moral one, is that you get promoted. So cove fee Annan, por me, is fee Annan, por me, is the best example of unaccountable at the UN. If the boss is unaccountable, many of the other senior people will be

unaccountable as well. Other people who didn't serve in Rwanda oar in Bosnia may have a different opinion of Mr Annan but I lost enormous respect for him working in those countries. I lost more respect for him when he accepted the Nobel him when he accepted the Nobel peace prize. I think that's a highly prize. I think that's a highly moral honour, and it doesn't deserve to honour, and it doesn't deserve to go to someone like that, or to an organisation like ours. You write organisation like ours. You write in the book that if the blue helmeted the book that if the blue helmeted peace keepers come to your town and offer to protect you, run, your lives are worth so much less than theirs, yet you still work at the UN. Why? That's a line that has UN. Why? That's a line that has gone around the world and has made the people at the UN headquarters extremely angry with me but it's also a truth. On the other hand I saw the very best of the organisation at the beginning of organisation at the beginning of the 90s. Maybe I'm a hopeless optimist, but I think it's an 90s. Maybe I'm a hopeless optimist, but I think it's an organisation with potential, which makes it you know even more devastating when it doesn't live up to it. We don't practise what we preach. That's the problem. And I think we should preach a lot problnk we should preach problem. And I think we should preach a lot less and practise a preach a lot less and practise a lot more. All that you've seen and more. All that you've seen and still you have brought a little girl into the world. Yeah, if you go on like this you're gone ya*r make me cry. She's a joy. I'm gaga about her. She's a joy. I'm gaga about her. And she's so innocent and it almost makes you more angry that now makes you more angry that now you're a parent, you know, imagine if the UN had promised to protect my UN had promised to protect my little girl and then didn't. A final question about you. You were part question about you. You were part of a failed effort to keep peace. Do you think personally you will ever be able to find it? I look back on those years and think is there anything that I could have done differently, and I think not. I think that I believed what I believed and I went through stuff that I never expected to go through. I am at peace now, because I've I am at peace now, because I've been able to use my medicine to help people. When there were only dead bodies to deal with and I did forensic work and maybe if you'd done different missions, if you'd been younger than we were and you'd

gone to East Timor, a success in large part due to the Australian military presence, if you'd done successful missions, you might successful missions, you might write a different book, but we ended up a different book, but we ended up in the worst ones and we tried to be honest. I'm not sure that I'm first in line for firing at the United Nations, I've got to tell you. Thank you very much for sharing your story with us. Take care. your story with us. Take care. Thank you. That's all from the show tonight. Show and Tell will be back next week. If you'd like to participate, go to the web site. Next week we go all the way to London to talk to Sir Bob Geldof. Until next week, have a great week. See you then. Goodnight. Captions by Captioning and Subtitling International.