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(generated from captions) powerful threat to the town. A deep and powerful threat. He talked

about the pipe and squeeze that

this tax will create that he did

not say that it will disappear and

be wiped off the map, become a

ghost town or anything like that.

He also seized on comments from a

funeral power that it could force

up the price of cremations in

particular, he argues that is

another reason why it is not needed.

There will be a fairer amount of

focus on the tax here. Tony Abbott

will use it to try to attempt to

look more prime ministerial and

broaden out his approach. There

will also be a focus on Clive

Palmer. He wants to move a

resolution to stop lobbyists

sitting an executive positions. In

particular, he is targeting Santo

Santoro. He wants a resolution

passed to make sure that the party

is as transparent as it can be. It

will not get up, in fact they will

try to manage it tonight so it does

not get debated tomorrow. Enjoy

yourself at the council! We will

take a commercial break. When we

come back, my rant and the panel.

Hello and welcome to the

Contrarians. This is the only show

where we truly involve you by

reading out your tweets and emails.

Julia Gillard, she really is the

George Constanta of Australian

politics. She should do the

opposite of every conceivable

instinct she has had to make it

something right in a while. The

debate going on in relation to

asylum seekers I think has been

disgraceful on both sides. I

realise most viewers don't agree

with me, but I am an advocate of onshore processing. Nonetheless,

our politicians have to serve the

public and they overwhelmingly want

a workable solution with offshore

processing. Julia Gillard was in

the box seat on this day after day

after Tony Abbott belligerently refused to negotiate. Suddenly!

Something surprising happened, Tony

Abbott did more to negotiate, he

offered one hill of a compromise.

Not only was he prepared to

increase the humanitarian wreckage

in -- intake, but he took temporary

protection visas off of the table.

He insisted United Nations would

have a role in any oversight by

Australia in Nauru. They have now

signed the relevant refugee

Convention. In an attempt to make a

compromise, that was one hill of a

cap I've offered by Tony Abbott and

the Liberal Party. The only thing I

wouldn't do if it should women and

children off to signatories like

Malaysia. The government would not

move. That is a disgrace and

politically dumb. The Prime

Minister has put itself in a

situation where she has been harder

on this and yet she is not willing

to economise now. Worst of all, she

has lied, ladies and gentlemen. She

said Abbott did not move 1 mm at

any stage of this. What a crock of

garbage. He moved a long way, as

illustrated. He removed temporary

protection visas and increased the

overall intake of refugees. I don't

agree with either party about what

they want to do, I say pale onshore

processing. That is the Prime

Minister continues to misrepresent,

how can you expect, my. What does

the panel think? Peter Bentley from

the Institute. Limitations and PR

consultant de Madigan. What you think?

I think you are wrong. It wouldn't

have been a compromise, her except

in Nauru. Quite of course it

wouldn't work. By accepting it, she

would be accepting something that

would continue to kill people. How

is that a compromise? It might not

have worked as well in Malaysia,

but at the end of the day, you

agree with the line at Tony Abbott

didn't move at all? He didn't was raised anything that would stop

people dying... You sound like a

politician. It is true or not that

he moved a millimetre? He didn't

move anywhere towards a decent

government. Not a millimetre? It

not towards any decent solution. It

is not often I am in better with

the greens, but on this issue I am.

We saw the Coalition did move on the humanitarian intake. The government obviously moved

significantly. The independents...

Everyone looked at compromise. A

disgrace and the Greens is that

everybody didn't sell out their

principles. Essentially, people

might buy over the next few weeks

as parliament goes towards a

solution. There are 40 million

displaced refugees around the

country. Heaven forbid they tried

to get themselves to safe havens.

More people are dying on a daily

basis in Sudan and refugee camps

than dying on both to get to

Australia. That doesn't mean you

stop doing things! We have the

Greens solution now. There is no

disincentive to stop people

hopping". People are dying. The

interesting thing this week is that

we saw a number of people who have

been very strong historically on

onshore processing. Disagree, Peter.

I think they have compromised. In

their own words, George Newhouse, a renowned human rights lawyer was

another one, they said they change

their position because they acknowledged they needed a

deterrent. Even if it is a short

term deterrent and a sunset clause,

I think it is something... Dry,

you're being very quiet, good to

see. Quite seriously though, on

this thread issue, you think it is

a price worth playing -- paying to

show people to Malaysia? Were you

one of the people railing against

the Pacific solution because Nauru

was a non-signatory? I wasn't

personally. But the point is we

need a deterrent. At what price?

Depresses their demise. Sometimes...

Peter, when the Malaysia pollution

was on the board before it was

struck dumb by the High Court, we

saw a drop in refugees coming on

boats and commentators that are

more well versed in these issues

and I am said that the reason was

because of Malaysia. It has that

deterrent effect. The problem with

Malaysia today is that it was an

800 And that Would already have

been a few in weeks. Both of them

together could have possibly work.

At the end of the day, the Coalition's policies were amended

more than Labor's. Labor was

prepared to accept Nauru, but Tony

Abbott, those amendments by Scott

Morrison did not include TPV's or

turning back boats. They are the

two planks of their platform. In a

minority Paramount, the greens will

not play ball, something has to

give and we have to come out of

this week or something. They should

have taken that with both hands and

run with it. That was delivered to the Australian people and leadership outcome. A solution of

some kind. It would have put the

ball in Tony Abbott court because

if Nauru didn't work, Gillard could

hang it on Abbott. Seeing they

accepted what they wanted and that

policy failed. USA in that she

should have taken something that

you are not work to take and play

politics will more people die. Not

necessarily. The letter would have

been a few weeks ago... If they

have a chance. That is the

collection, we do not know that. We

do know that Nauru won't work.

Nauru under Tony Abbott's proposal,

it is now a country that is a

signatory to the UN's convention.

It is also a processing centre run

by the union with the migration

refugee intake increased from 13

refugee intake increased from

13,500 to 20,000. One thing in its

favour as a deterrent was people

that arrived there had uncertainty

about what would happen. Now they

never a fact that 60% ended up in

Australia and 40% in New Zealand.

Almost never the went back. 30% of

people who were not refugees went

back. They were not refugees. The

Secretary of the Department said

Nauru is not the deterrent it was.

Canada's jump in... I had stats

about that. -- Doubt about that. A

lot of people advocated the

Malaysia pollution. Malaysia is

still set to uncomfortable with me

and a lot of other people with a

Labor background. It is a country

that does not have the same

safeguards in place that to other

UN-run countries do. When you put

it next to Nauru, it would be run

by the United Nations, how could

you set Malaysia as like Nauru. But

is -- to put them both there, it

isn't necessarily this safety

aspect that people think it is.

Together, they might work. It was a

shot worth taking. How can you say

definitively -- I also don't think

it Nauru would have worked. But the

psychological impact of reopening a

centre that previously played a

role in stopping the boats, albeit

as a bluff, may not work at some

extent. At the end of the day,

isn't something better than

nothing? Before mother, my. I go

back to the prime ministers or

words that Mr Abbott didn't move 1

mm during this. That is garbage, it

may not like where he moved, but he moved substantially. This is outright misrepresentation. This is

the reason that the public want to

throw something at the television

when politicians talk. You can't

definitively say something or not

will not work. That is why most reasonable people in the parliament

and community are now saying to try

everything. I think there is a

political... I think she... Is that

most reasonable people said to try

everything. The prime minister is

not willing to. Neither is Abbott.

Mac who Malaysia... Mac yell on

that point, there is -- There is a

point on that. You mentioned, Peter,

there are people in the government

that have long opposed offshore

detention. They opposed Nauru. They

have been uncomfortable about

Malaysia. The point is the art of

compromise is that you have to move

a little. I accept the Coalition

and the government to do. This is

why. It goes back to the Greens. I

do not did it all comes back in the

Coalition to the crocodile tears as

autumn parliament in relation to

Malaysia. This argument that the

non-signatories would do that, and

Joe Hockey were shedding a tear,

with me a break! The Coalition are

prepared to tow boats back to

Indonesia. That is the absolute

hypocrisy is as I have seen on. And

Snyder it was Nauru. Quite yet,

neither was Nauru, but at least it

was run by the Australian

government. A tweet came in about

what happens when they sign the UN

Convention. Maybe then they may

sparkle. There was a lot of things

put into place there were not just

going to send people there and let's go. That is true.

At the end of the day, the

essential plank of Labor's policy

in Opposition against Nauru is that

it was not a signatory to the UN

Convention. Now it is, but they

will not let Nauru be open.

Malaysia isn't, that they are happy

for Malaysia... They said both. To

be getting here is going back...

The Labor party had so many

positions over the past 10 years

that the Australian people do not

know what they believe. They were

going to be fought Howards

proposition, they had a coastguard

running as a policy at one stage,

there was only a select countries

that were UN Secretary, now we

don't have to accept them. Labor's

policies have been all over the

shop. It comes down to one thing.

This is about politics. The public

will not blame the Opposition to

what went wrong, they will blame

the Government. The government

should have taken it because they

would have had something to walk

away from this week on. They would

have had a political solution. We

had to take a break. Matthew

tweeted and instead you want to

throw something at the TV when you

talk. You can. It is your

television. Back in a moment.

Welcome back. Your tweets and

emails are coming in. You are

getting attacked for being a crazy

left-wing person! There is a loss

of what I would call confusion

about the issue but there are

confirmed -- concerns about the

cost. I keep getting told that I am

a liberal stalled. Firstly, Troy is

not a mate. I can doubt about! A

liberal stooge? Could I be any more

critical of both sides? You are

being a green stooge today! I am

tempted to slap myself that. We

were asked how onshore processing

would stop the boats. It would not.

At the end of the day, it is a free

world. I take the view that if

people who are genuinely fleeing

persecution, I hope that the

tragedies do not happen and I hope

that people who smoke don't

contract lung cancer, but at the

end of the day, that is their right

to flee and come here. They become

economic refugees arguably when

they become -- when they go to

Indonesia but not under the law

because they have not signed the

Convention on the refugees. You are

allowed to pass that state and so

they keep coming to hear. A year

ago that was my position but I

think something needs to be done

now. I think we need to get centres

overseas working a lot faster. In

the meantime we need a quick fix

and I think that Julie Owens said

it best, it is the least worst

option. Refugees are not coming in

five-star liners, they are coming

in leaky boats. If you are going to

have a go at Indonesia cover one

that you cut aid to Indonesia until

such times that they do something?

That is where our raft should be

directed. Why do we put

international pressure on Indonesia

to ratify the relevant UN

Convention speakers then no one

would have a right to come here by

boat. Throw money at Indonesia to

help them deal with the problem if

necessary but at the end of the day

is we are putting a Band-Aid on a

bullet wound. That will take time

though. It is like saying that we need a regional solution. The

countries in our region are not

serious about this. It is up to us

to sort out these problems.

Indonesia have got problems with corruption in the port authority

and their police force. You are

never going to be able to solve

these problems with a small country

like Australia dealing with this

refugee problem. It is up to us. We

sent hundreds of millions of

dollars of international aid to

Indonesia every year. Pull it back

if they are not prepared to help

us? You have to remember that

people smugglers are criminals. We

saw that with people who got

through Australian borders and was

bringing people through. What about

Schindler, was he a criminal? No, I

don't think he was but he was not

getting paid to put people on leaky

boats knowing that they had a good

chance of deaf. I raise this

because Paul was the fellow people

forget this but back when Kevin

Rudd was the minister, Paul said

that one man's people smuggler was another man's liberating hero.

Kevin Rudd attacked him in

Parliament for that. I think if

these people were doing it at cost

and putting them in safe boats,

that is a legitimate argument. But

if they are making $10,000 a head

to put them in dodgy boats which

are sinking more often and costing

people's lives and lying to the

families of people, we cannot

really compare them. You are right,

I was playing devils advocate.

There are differences. But I think

it is important that we do not lose

sight that at the end of the day

they are criminals, no one disputes

that, but the issue is that the

Indonesian government is better

placed than we are to do something

about this so the best thing we can

do is exert serious pressure. Not

just say that it is too hard, flick

it off to Malaysia which has not

signed on to the refugee Convention

that is just not a solution! I have

never advocated Malaysia but to

compare Oskar Schindler to a people

smuggler offering -- operating out

of Indonesia is offensive. Oskar

Schindler operating in the Second

World War was helping others leave

a condition. The motive was to keep

the -- help those people at the

person in Indonesia is trying to

profit and has no interest as to

whether he gets to Australia or not.

You don't know whether they have a

profit motive as well as a moral

motive as well. Of course they

don't! They stuck them on boats, a front-page story in the Australian

party yesterday or today saying

that they are paying $4000,

offering them passage on a boat

that is half the size of what they

said it would be. They are taking

money off people knowing that the

boat has a limited chance of making

it to Australia in the first place.

They are stacking the boats full

knowing that their lives are at

risk. They are not doing it to help

them. They are making money. I'm

not practice it here defending

people smugglers but I think to put

it all on them and leave it at that,

it is garbage. The government can

do something about that, they are a

disgrace for not doing something

about it. We should exert pressure

on them. Trade sanctions, I don't

care. If the issue is so important

that our major parties are

discussing it like they are, we

should start getting serious to

Indonesia rather than putting it in

the too hard basket. I completely

agree and I think that should be

part of the regional solution. We

know how long it takes to negotiate

a free trade agreement, we know how

long it takes to negotiate

alliances. That is a long-term goal.

It should be front and centre but

in the coming weeks, months and

even years as people are jumping on

the boats and drowning, we need

strong deterrents and we need our

politicians to sit down and cut a

deal or otherwise we will see more

tragedies. I just do not think that

that is a realistic option. Trying

to get Indonesia to deal with

people smugglers is realistic

because of the corruption problems

are mentioned. This is a problem we

need to sell us -- solve ourselves

and, like you Peter, I was

advocating on short processing

because I thought the number of

boats were small but now the risk

has escalated -- escalated

dramatically and offshore

processing is the only way to stop

this problem. The only way it we

can do that is taking it on

ourselves. We cannot rely on other

countries because it will not

happen. We'll either side Blinky

and offer more compromise would you

think that is done and we have now

got six months of parliamentary

recess, whatever happens, we are

stuck with both sides not green.

Will more tragedies at sea be

likely to broker a copper rise? It

would be lovely to come back in six

weeks time and have something

settled. It is possible. This is

going to intensify and coming --

become worse. We have got boats

every week. There is now a six-week

break and the boats will escalate.

People smugglers are not idiots.

They can use -- read newspapers on

iPads and they know that there is no border protection policy in

place. So for the next six weeks,

this will be a massive problem. It

will be intense on the government

to try to solve this. I think that

the government is going to have to

come back to the table on this and

when Parliament resumes it will be

item number one. Can you see them

bringing Parliament that? I think

they could. Imagine there was a

massive maritime disaster like the

end of last year. Hundreds of

people could die. Of course

Parliament would have to come back.

The political intensity in the

electorate will be so strong that

the Prime Minister will have to

accept what Tony Abbott is offering.

I think we are going to be done

with asylum seekers. We will take a

break and have a look at the carbon

tax and the mining tax when we come

back. It has been a lifelong dream

of Greg Hunt to put a price on

carbon ever since he wrote his

dissolution dream to say that the

big polluters need to be -- need to

pay. I wonder what he thinks now.

Welcome back. You're watching the

Contrarians. We have been talking

about the refugee issue with lots

of emails and streets coming in. A

lot of division. People to the left

arguing that the Labor Party is a

disgrace and the Liberal Party are

as well. But, we have had a lot of

tweets coming in as well. They have

been complaining about the

composition of the panel. I have

been complaining about this all

morning. Just the the record, Julia

Lisa was not available today. Don't

blame me, the right-wing fellow

didn't make himself available today.

Carbon tax and mining tax, two big

issues on the agenda. On Sunday,

they are both getting introduced in

terms of being enacted. We are also

in a position where the mining tax

has been forgotten. This is the

last week of the segment. We will

government. take a look at the Gillard

Troy, say something nice about the

Gillard government. It was great to

see her supporting the Paralympic

team. She was overseas and then

coming back from the G20. The prime

minister did support a parallel

appearance. She was there in

parliament house. The question was

to say something nice about the Gillard government, and then saying

something nice. She gave a pretty

good, spirited speech. She drew

back on our Olympian history and

promoted our history and encouraged

are at Olympians to strive to

greater heights. It was good to see

the former Prime Minister at...

Peter? I think there are economic

management over the last you months

has been strong. I think it has

been exemplary, but in recent

months, we are looking at the

budget surplus and I think... Due

really think... You will shave your

head? Quit seriously, as with the

grease -- Greece the world, there

are still sector during a tough. We

are not seeing 50% you to

unemployment. And going to change

it up to you. Say something nice

about Tony Abbott. Umm... He is

very fit. Yes, very fit. (LAUGHS)

added the about that. Mark Arbib

crunch time in the autumn marathon.

He beaten by ours. A bit of an air

different -- age difference. They

look similar in age, sorry Mark.

Mining tax. Why has this been

forgotten I everyone except the big

miners? The refugee issues have

dominated. Let's be realistic, the

mining tax it would be the focus

anyway. It seems to have slipped

people's minds. The miners have had

other things on their mind. You got

the talking point on. Well done.

Rebuilding the Titanic as well. He

is running for a lily as well. --

Lilley. A simply said it was a

contender. I think one of the

reasons... The reason the mining

tax is off the agenda is because

the Opposition is not pushing it.

It was not the vote winner it once

was. They put all their money

behind the carbon tax. You think

the carbon tax is a vote winner?

Abbott thinks it is. His rhetoric

has changed. He is now calling it a

python squeeze instead of a

wrecking ball. Businesses aren't

elapsing so he said it will happen

slowly now. It has changed. I had

always thought that the government

carbon tax was a good thing. I

think Australia should make its contribution. To reduce carbon

emissions effectively through a

carbon pricing scheme. I think the

government is wrong when they say

it will make a massive inroads

environment -- global climate

change. The Opposition are also...

Quite how can you say that? While

condemning the price. You think the

starting price is too high?

It is still a modest scheme.

Because of all the compensation and

because of where... It is not an

economy wide scheme. Just as the

government, the... It is not an

economy wide scheme. They should

take action on climate change and

the policy settings are generally

right. When the government says it

will dramatically reduce global

warming, they are wrong. It is

modest. I think the whole debate is

silly. The idea that we can

control... Whether you are a

sceptic or not, this immense

development going on in places throughout south-east Asia and

China and India. How can we

honestly think we're going to

reduce the emissions of its is

Sustainability is still -- Discernibly make sense. Woodworker a carbon neutral company.

They are making a positive

contribution to the environment.

This is an economic reform. Thomas

Beckett huge difference if China

and America do not act.

In a few years time, for a carbon

pricing we have created a superior

soul is system with wind turbines

and geothermal... Direct action

will not create that sector. When

China and America get on board, we

will be exporting them geothermal

and such technologies are there

country. More tweets and emails. We

have just had the transcript of

attorneys press conference coming.

Good Friday night reading. It is

not often you can say in Opposition

it got what you wanted. You do not

control the power. Greg Hunt wrote

a dissertation saying we need to

tax the big polluters. From that to

now, that dream of his, but he once

had, it is finally coming into play.

Unfortunate that he is the Shadow

Minister charged the tearing it

down. A good example of someone

nursing a position from university

days and now in parliament, they

stuck with the principal, and

should be pleased that on 1 July,

the government is doing what he

studied and worked for and has

advocated his whole life, Intel

Tony Abbott became Opposition

Leader. Maybe things have honoured

with the patient was not his finest

hour. Like I do. -- Maybe he thinks

his honours dissertation is not his

finest hour. We will be joined by

the greens leader Christine Milne

ADFA a change of pace, Nick Greiner

will be here as well. We'll talk

about infrastructure with him. In

the time we have left, just under

two minutes, it is awkward the Greg

Hunt, but at the end of the day

political survival dictated that he

needed to sell out and stay in

there. Not the first or the last to

do that. Or Julia Gillard

nomination solution, for example.

It'll be interesting in the next

few months. It would be horrible to

the government in terms of carbon

pricing. And when rat takes over? I

do not think that is on the cards.

(LAUGHS) Will you shave your head

is Gillard doesn't get to the next

election? Great. Is Julia Gillard

did not contest the next election,

you will shave your head. Yes. The

challenge to the Opposition, as

Labor saw in the opposing the GST,

it is very easy to do before scheme

comes in. Once the scheme comes in

and the sky doesn't fall, it is

very difficult to continue that

campaign. Your final thoughts?

Peter is right. There is massive

tax cuts and cash bonuses rolling

out over the next few months in the

original climate change package.

The economy is still running free

strong. The Australian people are

well buffeted by any impact by the

carbon tax. It remains to be seen

politically. We'll see how we go.

At a time on this episode of the

Contrarians. I appreciate your

company as always. Give your

company as well. You sure to tune

in on Sundays Australian Agenda.

Greg Hunt and for many sufferers

Premier Nick Greiner will all be

there. Or that coming up on Sunday.

See them. Live Captioning by Ai-Media