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Welcome to Canberra and our special edition of agenda

after the release of the carbon tax plans here at

parliament house today.

Prime Minister Julia Gillard

is hailing this as a

significant economic reform

and a win for millions of

households who will be better

off in many cases fully

compensated for the impost of

the 23 dollar a tonne carbon

tax that's announced today.

Quickly going through the

first points but we are going

to hear from a number of the

key players in the debate,

some of the industry and

reaction and environment

groups as well. The pain

points, it will be a carbon

price of 23 a tonne, it will

be paid directly by some 500

of the nation's biggest

polluters who pass on the

cost to the rest of the

economy. Two out of three

households will be completely

shielded, completely

compensated for the impact of

the carbon price, many of

them will be over compensated, battlers will

receive a buffer of some 20

per cent over compensation,

the average cost to

households of the carbon tax

will be 9.90 a week with

electricity the biggest price

rice going up on average 3.30

a week, gas prices 1.50, food

by under a 1 dollar a week.

In terms of compensation and

assistance for this, there

will be a 10 billion clean energy finance corporation

which will spend two billion

a year in investing in

renewable energy, 1.3 billion

package of assistance for the

coal industry, on top of a

9.2 billion industry

assistance package for the

heavy emitting industries,

households will receive

assistance of more than 15

billion through tax cuts

worth three hundred to 330 a

year to low and middle income earners, there will be an increase in the pension of

1.7 per cent, an increase for

self-funded retirees and an

increase in family tax benefits for families with

children as well. Kieran

Gilbert was me as well. Kieran, the compensation is

perhaps a little more, little

larger than many had

expected. This would seem to

indicate that Julia Gillard

wants to inknock collate the

Government politically We can

break it down into two parts,

those for households nine out of ten households will

receive compensation, eight

out of ten will receive - six

out of ten I should say

should receive more compensation than the actual

cost F we move beyond that

9.2 for the trade exposed

industries, the emissions

intense industries, 1.3

billion for coal. This is a

package which I think does go

some way to inknock collate

the Government, whether it

goes far enough remains to be

seen. I think in terms of

the household compensation

very generous compensation

for pensioners, for self-funded retire Reece,

from about the 50,000 income

to 80,000 dollar. The grey

vote, it seems is really a

target of this compensation

package The self-funded retirees are perhaps amongst

the biggest winners here,

they will see an increase,

the Government is clearly

wary about the grey vote

ensuring they're not left off

side, to go through some of

the tax cuts they do target

particularly the tax cuts the

lowest income earners, those

on 20, 25,000 a year receive

in the order of 600, 500 a

year tax cut to help over

compensate them for the

impact of the carbon tax. It

starts to taper out to an

income of 80,000 a year. If

you have kids the family tax

benefits will kick in

one hundred and fifty,000 a ensuring those earning up to

year, families, that is, will receive some compensation,

not full compensation. The

opposition did target the

fact you will have some areas

here where people will be

worse off, you will have, for

example, a single income

family with one child under

five earning only 65,000 a

year, an average or a little

under the average household

income actually will be

slightly worse off I think it

was 43 cents a week worse off

for that particular family,

or household, but the

treasurer, when we spoke to

him earlier made the point

there were a whole heap of

changes here, whether it be

in the family payments

system, the changes to the

low income tax offset and so

on that are going to have different impacts, the

Government is banking on

across the board people will

either be compensated for

every cent that they face in

an added impost through this

tax four in ten households will receive much more compensation than what

they're going to be spending.

Within that bracket we're

talking about, as I say the

grey vote which is I think a

significant part of this

package. Looking at the

industry, the industry

compensation three hundred

million dollars on top of the

free permits will be going to

the steel industry which of

course is facing the problems

of the high Aussie dollar,

that's really hurting blue

scope one steel and that

industry. So the Government

respond to go that

pressure The industry

assistance 9.2 billion

dollars to protect those

trade exposed hef eye

emitters with the same

compensation they would have

received under the carbon pollution reduction scheme,

free permits to the tune of

94.5 per cent, those who

pollute a little less 66 per

cent free permits, then as

you say an additional package

for steel for the gas

coalmine as well. This will

also help keep some of the

union crit six of the

government, the CFMEU, keep

them happy as well The coal

compensation is through cash grants, the Government won't need legislation through the parliament for that. It's

interesting to note for those

that are just tuning in the

coal compensation and the steel added compensation was

not part of the multiparty

committee outcome. The

negotiations couldn't come up

with a compromise, the Greens

were not going to back it.

Another interesting point to

this that three hundred

million additional support

for the steel industry is

going to require legislation.

Odd that the government would

be paying cash grants to coal, but requiring

legislation for the steel

compensation. It seems to me

that the government wants a fight here with Tony Abbott

on this, put pressure on him

to back this compensation,

when we heard Mr Abbott

earlier in the day say he was

going to block every bill

associated with the tax Let's

go to the politics of this.

That might be one political move, another is clearly the

scale of the household assistance, Labor wants to

protect its base, this is is

a Labor package, when you

talk about the self-funned

retirees, they want to make

it hard for Abbott to claw

this back, he will, as it

gets more difficult, if the

compensation is as generous

as we seal here. That steel

package you mentioned as

well, for the Greens there's

a lot at stake politically as

well, how this package stacks

up against the CPRS which

they rejected on two occasions, does this package

stack up as a more

environmentally friendly alternative not more

environment friendly, no, it

is an outcome, the Greens

need an under the modelling

come on a carbon price, Bob

Brown described it as a world

leading outcome at his news

conference, talking up the

Greens credential s of the

package, a different tone we

heard from Wayne Swan talking

down the impact suggesting

it's going to be less than 1

per cent impact on CPI The

Greens points to a couple of

differences, one that the 5

per cent target to reduction

emissions by Twenty20 can be

increase add lot faster than

it would have under the CPRS,

also the industry assistance

can be wound down eliminated

a lot faster than it would

have been under the CPRS, no

guarantee on either front

that will happen, in a

political environment neither

Labor nor the Coalition are

going to rush to that They're

big ifs, that's what the

Greens are clinging, the fact

there is a greater upward

flexibility on setting

targets beyond 2014, once the

ETS is in place there will be

annual reviews as to what the

national target should be,

and as you say, David,

capacity there to withdraw

the industry support sooner.

Well, this does, no doubt,

give the Gillard government

something at least to argue

on, some substance in this

debate where there's been

such a policy vacuum for

months and months on the

detail of this. Now they'll

get out and about start

selling the benefits for

households. We will face a

relentless campaign from Tony

Abbott concerned about the

impact on jobs and those

heavy polluting trees, that

this may mean from them.

We're going to hear from a

number of the key players,

joined by Christine Milne.

We spoke a short time ago to the two country independents

who were part of negotiating

this outcome, Rob Oakeshott

and Tony Windsor.. Well, Rob

Oakeshott you and Tony

Windsor have copped a bit of

flack, what's the among thing

to you Agreement, we have

something to put to the

parliament now, over to the

Australians to dig through

the detail, hopefully we can get this through the

parliament What element of

this is thanks to you and

Tony Windsor Neither claim

nor blame at this end, the

important packages that

separate it from CPRS's past

is the independent

governance, important in the

model, the land sector is

important, the tax reform,

the three big items at the

core of this package that

make it better than the

last Tony Windsor, the NFF,

the national farmers

federation were happy to see the carbon farming initiative

in particular In terms of the

land use sector, the natural

resource sector, a lot of

very good material in this

package. On ha top of that

you've got the renewable energy finance corporation,

ten billion dollars, most of

the significant out comings of that particular

arrangement will be based in

the country, so there's a lot

of opportunity and potential

in the country, not only in

terms of soil carbon, the

changing management practices, there's tax

incentives in there to

actually change management

practices to adapt to climate

variability in the farm

sector and the grazing

sector Is the hit going to

come down the track, the ex

em shone for big trucks and

smil trailers, the price is

only going to go up, should

people be worried this is

going to bite in a few years?

I said to the government, it

was a make or break situation

for me, I wouldn't support

something that had it in

there, no parliament can find

the future parliament to

whatever it does, the

Government suggests it will

go into the next election as

that part of its policy. I wouldn't have advised

that Are you talking about

the heavy vehicles The fuel

rebate, that's in the

package, the Government says

it is going to be part of its

next parliamentary term

election platform. They've

got to get re-elected first,

Tony Abbott will keep the

scheme, I don't think he'll

be imposing it on trucks You're saying that the

Government - at the moment

with this announcement today

they've said it's a two-year

exemption they've given you

the commitment they're

putting this in on a

permanent basis That will go

to the next election as part

of that policying and I'll be

opposed to it Tell me about

the other side of the

compensation for industry

which isn't part of the multi

party committee deal, the 1.3

million for coal, three hundred million additional

for steel, why wasn't that

done within the multiparty

arrangement? They couldn't

find agreement, the Greens

weren't happy with parts of

that. I would have thought

the gassy mines might have

been able to utilise the

neath an from within the

mines as an energy source, we

have everybody else travelling all over

Australian trying to use

neath an. Far better off to

assist them to use it rather

than pay them to put up with

it Rob Oakeshott did you have

a doubt you'd get agreement This has been

trench warfare not only in

this building but across

Australia, the agreement is

the fundamental news of today

people who have been so Farah

part in their positions have

managed to sit down in a

consensus way and reach

agreement Is there enough in

the compensation, in the tax

cuts, the pension increase, self-fupded retirees to save

your neck politically, a lot

of people are saying you're

gone because of your support A three hundred

survey from the national

party, we will see how we go

in the end, I think this is a

good policy Will you be

hitting the hustings and

selling this around the lek

Trott Clean energy future dot

Gough dot Au is the clean

energy website, at least have

a look at how this is for

your personal situations, for

your birks I think you'll see

a few surprises in there Tony

Windsor, you said in your

answer to David Tony Abbott

won't rescind the scheme, why

are you so adamant about

that, he has said from the

outset he is going to scrap

it It is very hard to unwind

it, you could see that in his

performance, around how we're

going to do this in terms of

taxation, the it will comma

round through business,

business wants certainty, the

worse thing we could have

done is given them more years

of uncertainty. As this

starts to fold out it will

put pressure on the

Coalition, the smarter heads

in the Coalition to say we're

going here some time, we're

better off to use this as a

platform, modify it, don't

throw the platform out it's

only going to do it now, the

smart companies are going it

now, they're factoring it

into their projections, the

others want some certainty, I

think that will create the

pressure to make sure that it

stays in place. Kieran, can I add an important point, it

was raised about an hour ago,

about whether all the

legislation is going to be

blocked on the floor of the parliament, the carbon

farming initiative bill has

passed the lower house, the

billion dollar package that

is being announced today is

already in the sen nat, the

opposition didn't oppose it,

for them to say an hour ago

on your show they're going to

oppose all of it, the voting

record is there, they didn't

oppose a really critical part

of that Thanks very much for

joining us today Thanks We're

noul joined by fellow member

of those multy party climate change committee

negotiations, the Greens, deputy leader Christine

Milne, thanks for your time Thanks What are the Greens most proud about here,

what have you got out of the package The biggest thing is

the 80 per cent reduction by

2050 and a climate authority

which will be independent of

the parliament, be able to

take into account the latest

science, we have absolute up

ward flexibility as the world decides to act on climate change Australia will be

right there If it vies let's

increase the target to 15 per

cent, the Government does

haven't to agree to it, does

it? No no, it doesn't, we

have taken this from the

United Kingdom model. The

climate committee is held in

such high regard by both sides of parliament they

wouldn't dare not take the recommendation, that many

said Australia could always

take a different tack, I

think the community will

recognise we're setting up

something here to be a

serious body to look at

climate policy, it will be a

big and important

intervention in the public a

debate. Apart from that the

fantastic support for

renewable energy, both ARENA,

the renewable energy agency

and 10 billion knew funding

for the finance corporation,

the biggest investment in

renewable energy we have seen

in this country. I think

some other things like the biodiversity fund that's

something we feel very

strongly about, there's money

that goes into landscape

carbon, so a number of

things, of course the billion energy efficiency, which we

have campaigned for for a

long time as well There are

billions of dollars going

into industry and household

assistance, on the industry

front first labour and the Greens couldn't reach

agreement on the steel support, the Government has

had to announce a further

three hundred million outside

the package to help the steel industry, you wouldn't

support that, why Two issues,

with the Emissions Trading

Scheme the whole idea of

assistance for the energy

intensive trade exposed

industries is to compensate

them for their trade exposure

and so that's what at

assistance is with the ETS,

in addition to that, the

argument is that the steel

industry is under the hammer

from the high Australian

dollar, I accept that is the

case. You wouldn't want to

destroy the integ gritty of an Emissions Trading Scheme

by moving industry assistance

money in to change the whole

focus. From the Government's

point of ru it wants to

provide an industry

assistance package. We will

look at that to see what

they're proposing, our focus

is to keep jobs There is a

prospect you will vote for it

in the parliament Yes, we

will look favourably on it,

we want to see the details of

what they're proposing. From

my point of view it is

important to keep the focus

of the assistance for trade

exposure to trade exposure.

What do you say to

Australians this evening who

look at this package, when

they hear the argument that

there is no other economy in

the world that has an economy-wide Emissions

Trading Scheme, certainly not

one of this price? I say

they should be really proud of the fact that Australia

has acted. This will be a

real boost for international

negotiations whchlt we first

started this I didn't really

think it would make that much

difference to the global

negotiations now I think it

will, we are an energy

intensive economy in terms of

a fossil fuel economy, if

Australia can stand up and

say, right, we're taking the

climate task seriously, we're

going to look at up ward

ambition in terms of ee duesing emissions, we're

going industry wide,

transform the Australian

economy that is a big boost

to the world going into

Durban in the taungs in

December When you say up ward ambition, Bob Brown said earlier this was a

world-leading package, are

you saying it's Australia

being ahead of the pack, is

that a good thing? Australia

isn't ahead of the pack right

now I have to say Under this package will Australia be

ahead of the pack? I think

Australia will certainly be

starting to take leadership

particular ly for those

economies that are as

dependant on fossil fuels as

we are, the Europeans have

made a good start on it,

they're way ahead of us on

energy efficiency, I think in

the case of renewable energy

Australia can make a great

contribution, great

technology, we can hopefully

role tl out in this country,

we have an a long way to

catch up. Spain just last

week opened its first power

station which was the solar

power station with molten

salt storage, offering 24

hours of power, so we have

got a way to go, we can get

there now that's the exciting

thing Look at the household assistance, there's millions

of households that will be

over compensated, the total

price impact is .7 of 1 per

cent, where's the incentive

to change behaviour, if it's

going to only have an impact

of .7 of 1 per cent I think

there will be a big incentive

to change behaviour, people

will realise that if they

take up the energy efficiency measures in particular

they'll be able to reduce

their costs and actually be

better off, also that means

they'll be able to cheese on

the shelves wherever they go

those products which are cleaner products because

they'll be cheaper The

Coalition has seized on the

fact that Australia's domestic emissions will not

have reduced by Twenty20, in

fact they're going to climb,

even with the carbon price,

they will use that obviously

to blunt the impact of this

price. What is your response

to that criticism? Well, the

Coalition really has no

credibility in terms of reducing emissions. They

don't have a plan to do so at far In the treasurer

modelling emissions aren't

going to fall by Twenty20 We

will see. My view is what

we're doing with this scheme

is bringing forward a lt of

the things that were pushed

back under the proposed

scheme previously, so we're bringing forward the

investment and renewable,

immediately investing in

landscape carbon, immediately

putting money out there for

energy efficiency and I

certainly think that what we

will get is a psychological

shift in Australia, I think

we will get a lot more action

on climate change and

reducing emissions than

treasurer actually modelled

for. I think Treasury is

extremely conservative, we're

going to see the Australian

people show treasurer recan

he can do a lot better than that When you look at the Greens decision to vote

against the CPRS and what we

have on the table was it

worth it? Yes, the CPRS is an Emissions Trading Scheme,

it had the view you could get

through all the complimentary measures, there are four

pillars to the package, Emissions Trading Scheme,

there's a big investment in renewable energy, big

investment in energy efficiency and a big

investment in the landscape

with the biodiversity fund,

also every step along the way

you'll notice there are

points of reform, one of

those, for example, that

hasn't been commented on much

is the recommendation that we

start planning for one

hundred per cent renewable

energy, which means that the whole system will start

looking at how you do that,

another one is looking at

reform of the electricity

market to how you bring on

demand side management. We

managed to get rid of another

one, that is the ability to

create renewable energy certificates by burning

native forests, the carbon

farming initiative, a lot

tighter, we really get some

good outcomes in the

landscape. This is a whole

of government approach, the

other was just an Emissions

Trading Scheme. That is what

will make the big

difference Greens deputy

leader Christine mill into thank you Thank you We're

going to take a quick break,

then back for more, stay with us.

Welcome back to our

special coverage of the

carbon tax. Details have

been unveiled today, a 23

dollar a tonne price has been

announced by the Government

for a fixed three year

period, then it moves to a floating price determined by

the market. It will be paid

directly by some 500 of the

heaviest emitters in the country, they will then pass

on the costs to consumers

across the country, to

compensate for all that the

Government has announced

significant tax reforms,

targeting low income earners,

an increase in family benefit

payments, a boost to

self-funded retirees, it will

generate 17 billion in

revenue for the Government,

going tock spending in

compensation for households

and industry more than 20 billion, there will be an

initial impost on the budget

bottom line, it will become

revenue neutral. The family

assistance measures that are

involved are aimed at inknock collating the Government from

the political tax from the

opposition, leave people out

of pocket. Julia Gillard 's

main message is tkly low

income earners will be fully

compensated and in some cases

made better off We will use

more than 50 per cent of the

money paid by big polluters

to provide assistance to

households in the form of tax

cuts and payment increases.

Nine out of ten households

will get a tax cut or benefit

increase or a combination of

both. What that means is

around six million households

will receive enough through a

tax cut or payment increase

to enable them to meet the

average cost of carbon price

on them and their family. The

tax cuts will be made

available an incomes up to

80,000 an a year, the most

generous are at the end of

the income scale, 20 to

25,000 a a year, equivalent

to a three hundred a year tax

cut or 5.80 a week. When we

look at the costs that these

households face there will be

a significant impost. The

average cost for households

will be 9.90 a week, or 515 a

year. That is largely

because of an an increase in

electricity bills, rising for

the average household 3.30 a

week, gas bills up 1.50 a

week, or 87 a year, food will

only go up by less than a

dollar a week. For industry

that is where the burden will

be carried, it's the trade

exposed heavy emitting

industries who will be hit

the hardest. They're going

to be given direct

assistance, 94.5 per cent of their permits will be offered

to them for free, those who

pollute a little less will

receive 66 per cent permits,

in line with the carbon

pollution reduction scheme by

Kevin Rudd. There will be special assistance for the coal and steel industries to

help them with the transition

to the effective carbon

price, all up the industry

assistance is worth 9.2 billion as Julia Gillard

explained. We want to work with businesses and

industries as they make the

transition that carbon

pricing will bring to a clean

energy economy. That's why in

this package you are seeing support for important industries, like the coal

industry, like the steel industry, like manufacturing,

like many of our businesses

that generate high levels of

carbon pollution, but trade internationally and effectively take the world

price for what they produce.

Well, the opposition isn't

convinced. It fears some

industries will be hit too

hard, that jobs will be lost,

and on the family assistance

Tony Abbott argued that millions will be worse off.

The Government boasts that

90 per cent of Australians

will receive compensation,

and that 40 house of households will be over

compensated. Well, I think all Australians are capable

of translating Poli speak.

What that means is that 10

per cent of households will

get absolutely nothing, and

that 60 per cent of

households will either be

worse off or it will be line

ball. If you go through the

Government's own figuring

they say that the impact on

prices will cost the average

household 9.90 a week, that

the compensation on average

will be $10.10 a week, so

even on the Government's own

figure there is a 20 cent a

week margin for error. This

is from a government which is

Monday mentally bad at getting anything at all

right. Tony Abbott was also

tuckly critical of the

reliance on buying carbon

permits off shore, investing

overseas to reduce carbon

emissions saying that under

the Coalition his colleague

Greg hunt argued in their

efforts to reduce ee mi

missions by 5 per cent all of

the carbon permits will be

bought domestically here in

today. To tell us more about

this barn knee Joyce means

me. There is significant

compensation for low income

households, do you welcome

that? David, I suppose there

is significant compensation

for low income households

because there's significant

costs to them. You've got to

believe them that it's going

to compensate you for what

you lose. We know in regional areas they're going

to pay a lot more than what

they get, there's an ak Ken

waited cost in region

areas What is that Reason of

cost, power prices Petrol is

excluded in this, if you're a

low income household in the

bush you get the assistancism

the price of petrol is dearer

in the bush to start off

with. To say it's not

indirectly on petrol or it is

it will be on the trucks that

cart it out there, the price

of refining the fuel,

operating the fuel refinery,

let's be factual what we have

had is some on rarks a

festival of the boot,

festival of the environmental

boot. Everybody has been

doing cartwheels around the joint. The Australian people

as far as they're concerned

they don't want it, they

don't care how much you want

to bang on about it they

don't want it, they'll end up

in a worst spot. If you get

back from the picture what

can you see, I can see in

this show collecting 9

billion and handing back

around about half of this.

Money does not grow on trees,

Julia Gillard's quotes,

collecting a lot 6 money

giving some of it back, say

thank you then heading off to

Kingston and having a steak

and a beer Into reality

they're going to collect 17

billion and hand back 20

billion, they're handing back

more Not to the household.

It start becoming pointless

we are borrowing further

money to end newspaper a

worse position. Not going to

make any difference to the

climate, let's be clear about

it It will reduce

emissions It's not going to

do that, at the end of the

day our emissions one of

these little familiar flets

that the taxpayers are paying

for they're going up They

won't go up as much as they

could have They're going up,

you're being poorer and there

are people who are going to

be losing their jobs, the

coalminers in the Hunter

Valley, that's mine, they

might have a job, not in

Singleton, let's tell the

ladies sitting on their

mortgages in Maitland they're

about to move to western

Queensland They said they

will reduce the emissions by

2020. You will do that in

Australia that will cost more Land sector measures,

250 million rgs that's all

for nonCyoto compliant carbon

which is sale carbon. What

this crowd is doing is

putting it owl in the CYOTo complaint which is trees,

they have made it a

biodiversity fund, it's all

about the possums, about the

fruit bats, bringing back the

Menagerie of animals that

inner suburban Melbourne, I

don't know-how that

works Your plan would cost

more, if you're going to

achieve the same reduction,

entirely within Australia You can get vastly cheaper

results if you concentrate on

such things as soil

carbon Can't you get cheaper

reductions if you send the

money overseas When we can't

quite get there at the end of

the day we're sending money

to he can kwat toral begin

niece You trust do you, have

you ever received those

fraudulent emails. What

we're finding on the weekend,

you can find it in the

financial review, or PM, PM

is a right wing stalwart,

they're talking about the

fraudulent activities that

have happened for the

European scheme, I've been

reading this morning about

wind farms in China, set up

but not plugged in Is it

going to be dodgy Of course

it is going to be dodgy. Are

we going to have people

placed in these countries to

authenticate it. We know

where this is heading, the

same place as insulation,

school hauls, it is a

wonderful frolic, we all have

a yoly time, try and pump the

ratings then it all falls

dramatically A over T like it

always does Thanks very much,

we will take a quick break stay with us.

Welcome back to our

coverage of the carbon tax

details unveiled nod a moment

we will return to some of the

policy arguments. We will

hear from Wayne Swan, the

shadow climate action

Minister Greg hunt. Joining

us now is Graham Richardson,

who of course has been pointing out for some months

now the political challenges

and diabolical problems the

Government has found itself

in dealing with this issue.

Now we see the details, the compensation for households and industry, what do you

make of this package in a

policy sense It's been

crafted pretty well. There's

no doubt you've got it right

speaking to Barnaby Joyce,

it's not redugs the amount of carbon in the air, that's not

going to happen any time

soon. What you're trying to

make sure is the increase

will stops. It's a well

crafted package, I think

Barnaby Joyce is one of the

best knockers I have ever

heard. He is good at it. He

struggled with you then, this

is cunning lie crafted, once

they start to muck around

with that compensation, once

they say well we won't be

having the tax, we won't need the compensation people have

already got it in their

pockets they're going to get

upset about it It was clear

in the comments there there's

nothing in the compensation

they're criticising there,

there is nothing to say that self-funded retiree can't

deserve that money It is

going to be hard to fiddle

with it. Abbott has said in

the past that's what he is

going to do. He said if

there's no tax you don't need

compensation, the problem here is Julia Gillard is

saying to all those being

compensated I'll give you the

money very early long before

the tax, it is in your

pockets, you'll have it

there. It's very very hard to criticise, I don't know

what the Liberal are going to

do now, it's pretty clear

they don't either Joe hock

can I said this isn't a real

tax cut that, could comeback

to haunt him on July 1 next year Gillard saying it wasn't

a tax, she had to say

probably it is, with Joe

Hockey that was dumb, he's

usually a bit brighter than

that it, will comeback to haunt him, I have no

doubt What about the industry

assistance, it seems to

mirror the carbon pollution

reduction scheme assistance

for the big emitting trade

exposed guys. There's more

on the top for the steel

industry is that because of

Paul hows and the union

applying pressure Yes, the

industry itself is within the

argument, all the industries

have been knocking on the doors of the Prime Minister

and other Ministers, putting

their Oar in the water. I'm

still worried about coal, a

lot of jobs on the line. One

of the problems if I'm a

coalminer I live in mus well

Brook it doesn't mean I can

get a job on a wind farm two

hundred kilometres away. I'll be interesting to see

the details what they're

going to do for coal and all

the energy producers. The

other thing I should say on

that when you read the small

print there's that bit about

buying bakt several thousand

megatonnes of this coal

production, that's almost

concernly the Latrobe valley,

if I was there at the moment

I'll be looking very carefully about what's in the

detail of this The coal associations Ralph Helman

told us earlier coal mines

will close as a result of

this, he would say that. The

whole point is to shift away

from dirty coal power. Let

he is - tell us about the

union die unanimous nicks, we

know some of the individual

unions are a little

uneasy Some are very uneasy,

very hard to keep them in the

box, you try to keep running around keeping to keep everybody together. There

are people who are very

worried. The forestry

workers broke out in Tasmania

a few years back, I won't be

too surprised to see the

CFMUE breaking out soon. The

Hunter Valley, there are

problems there if people

don't get looked after. I'm

going tock looking at it

carefully myself. I won't

pretend to be across the detail, there's so much of

it I'll send you all the paperwork we have got

here That would be great,

thanks very much I'm sure you

can stay up all night reading

it. One of the big attack

Lions from Tony Abbott we're

relying under this seem on

buying permits off shore, Australian emissions won't

fall by 2020. Do people care

about that. Is that a fair

enough point to make? I

don't think anybody cares

about that, as long as they

comeback. It's not a fair

point. He is scrambling to

find something to criticise,

it is a pretty well crafted

package. They'll do the

numbers over the next few

days, they will find things.

You always do in a big

package in on them they will

hone We will be waiting and

watching for someone on the

Labor side to slip up on the

cost of a packet of chips or

box of corn flakes Can you

believe we got down to Tim

Tams, I find that

staggering I'm outarranged

they're going up by a cent a

package. Is there enough in

this package to say this is

the start of a comeback for

Gillard, or have people made

up their minds I think too

many have made up their

minds, I don't think they can

win the next election. As a

person who was a Labor

cabinet Minister I'm very

pleasantly surprised by how

well this has been done. It

must mean there will be a

comeback. The over the next

six to 12 months, as the real

message here sinks in, I

think Labor has a real chance

of getting back to a

respectable number, when

you're down to the polls,

you're getting down to NSW

type proportions for last

March which were disastrous,

once you get back to 34, 35

you're looking respectable

that's the aim of the

exercise into we will look

forward to your comments on

the - during the week as

well. Thanks for your

comments Thank you We're

getting get back into the

policy arguments from the

Government and the

opposition, we spoke a little

earlier to the treasurer and acting Prime Minister Wayne

Swan. There are a variety of

int soakses between tax cuts,

family pavements, low income

sup implements, you will get

the odd out comeback that 90

cents a week worse off, good outcomes for people on low

and middle incomes, what

absolutely stunned me this

morning is Tony Abbott says

he wasn't really serious

about the 5 per cent target.

If he's not serious about a 5

per cent target then will

hockey is saying the tax cuts

aren't real, I can tell you

they're real, when they come

through people will be buying

the cereal and spending the

tax cuts, I don't know what

they have got in place to

deal with carbon abatement

and tax cuts Huff will the

Government spend providing generators, your security

fund that is 5.5 billion over

six years, can we assume that

is the upper end figure We

have a commercial process to

go through, we're looking for

2,000 megawatt hours for

dirty power stations 5.5 billion We're providing free

permits, part of all of that. We're not talking about the

mix, that wouldn't be

Mart What about the budget

bottom line, you said it's

going to be revenue neutral.

Over the surplus hours it's

a drawing on the budget Why

is that why have you got to

take a hit on the bottom

line It's a big change for

the economy. Very desirable

we put in place some of those

payments up front, the

payments we're talking about for pensioners, very

important to put some of

those up front to give them

faith and certainty, so there are establishment costs up

front payments, so you have 2.9 billion in the first

year, across the forward

estimates a small call on estimates At assistance

you're giving steel and coal

on top of the package will you get the Greens on board

of for that or will you need

the Coalition In terms of the

steel industry I would hope

we get everybody frankly.

The steel industrial has got

some very big challenges.

They all come from the

Australian dollar, it's

relatively high value, the structural change we're face

ago cross the economy at the

moment. That is more broadly across manufacturing

industry, tourism, many other

parts of the industry. Wayne

Swan talking to us a little

earlier, we caught up with

Greg hunt, the shadow climate

action Minister. Who vs

criticised this tax plan is doing nothing for the

environment, putting too much

of an impost on industry and households Let's go straight

to the opposition reaction,

we're joined by Greg hunt.

Thanks for joining us, you've

been sitting listening to the treasurer's arguments here,

let's start with a couple of

points that he raised here.

You said in your news

conference you'll deliver 5

per cent reduction in emissions without buying any

off shore permits. Are you

sure you can do that? Yes,

we can, yes we will. What is

fascinating today, the fresh

remember has sat in this seat

next to you and misled the

Australian people, he's not

being honest or he doesn't

understand the policyings you

asked him a clear question

will emissions go down in Australia under your policy

treasurer, he said yes, that

is false. This modelling

which the Government has

produced makes it absolutely clear emissions in Australia

will go up. In 2020 the

Government's emissions will

go from 578 million tonnes

now to 621 million tonnes

then, an increase of 43

million tonnes in Australia

under his policy. Either he

doesn't know, or does not

honest. But that is the

first great mistake. This is

the basis, the whole reason,

the purpose the treasurer of

Australia has no idea what

he's doing, why he's doing

it. If he cannot get the most basic question right

about the 308 see this policy

should be junked right now.

You're guaranteeing you will

reduce Australian emissions

you're going to have entirely

domestic reduction to get

that 5 per cent, doesn't that

put a greater burden on

Australian business into this

is what we set oup 18 months

ago, still there in the

document, been there all

along, that is because we

will provide incentives

through government purchasing

to reduce emissions at lowest

cost. It's not difficult,

until today the Government

had denounced it, now we find

to pick up the remaining gap

in even emissions they then

turn to the direct action

policy to try and clean up the coal-fired power sector.

We set out exactly the

proposal which they had

denounced for 18 months now,

adopted in secret in the last

week. Greg hunt talking to us earlier, they're the

arguments we will be hearing

over the next month of months

as the Government and the

opposition go toe to toe.

Opposing this carbon tax,

quite clearly the political stakes couldn't be higher for

Julia Gillard and Tony

Abbott. Both realise just

how high those stakes are.

They've invested so much in

this, not both can survive

over this argument. It will

dominant the next election

campaign, it will decide the fate of the Prime Minister

and the opposition leader.

Deer land - Kieran Gilbert,

it is going to be

fascinating. Labor has some substance out there to talk

about to sell to hammer home

that compensation They're

relieved about that, Labor

pms who have been trudging

along without any detail,

trying to rebut an effective

campaign from Tony Abbott,

some relieve there. Tony

Abbott no doubt as Richo was

saying will have a chance to

get right into the detail,

listen to the Government

trying to make that case,

find problems and trippist.

This isn't going to be a

one-way argument He's already

found one. The case study of

one family on 65,000 a year,

43 cents worse off, it's not

going to be that easy to

prosecute such a detailed set

of policies. We have seen

that over the years on many

occasions where a slight

slipup from a Minister here

or a prime ministerial gaf

there can derail momentum The

mixed reaction from industry,

the coal sector, cement,

steel, all having concerns

about, this we heard the

national farmers federation surprisingly positive about

some elements, small business too, the Government not too

unhappy with the reaction.

We will continue bring you

this action and urge you to

go the Government's website

as well. There is going to

be a change across the

economy under this carbon

tax. We will have continued

coverage near on Sky News of this carbon Sunday this

evening. Stay with us, right

now after the break the latest Sky News.

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