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Rudd's smokescreen

Rudd's smokescreen

Broadcast: 29/04/2010

Reporter: Chris Uhlmann

The Rudd Government is taking the anti-smoking campaign to a new level. In two years cigarettes
will only be sold in plain packets with health warnings and from midnight tonight smokers will be
paying more. But is this a smokescreen for a week of back flips?

Transcript

KERRY O'BRIEN, PRESENTER: It was another era when the advertising industry used to sell us messages
like the one that cigarettes were the international passport to smoking pleasure.

Pro-tobacco commercials in print and on television are now things of the past and the cigarette
packets themselves have become the last billboard - but not after today's announcement from the
Rudd Government taking the anti-smoking campaign to a new level

In two years, cigarettes will only be sold in plain packets with health warnings, and from midnight
tonight smokers will be paying more.

But the plan has left the more cynical political observers querying the timing of the announcement,
asking whether it's a distraction from a spate of policy back flips?

Political editor Chris Uhlmann

ADD 1: She packed a lunch and did I eat. Now a cigarette would be a treat.

ADD 1 VOICEOVER: Craven filter- the clean cigarette that's kind to your throat.

ADD 2: Smoke Kool, Kool, Kool.

ADD 3: More doctors smoke Camels than any other cigarette.

ADD 4: Peter Stuyvesant the international passport to smoking pleasure.

ADD 5: Anyhow have a Winfield.

CHRIS UHLMANN, REPORTER: The hey-day of cigarette advertising is long gone, the beguiling images
erased by the march of time and regulation.

ADD 6: Come to Marlboro country.

CHRIS UHLMANN: Today's cowboys have smoking in their sites and the message is unembossed.

KEVIN RUDD, PRIME MINISTER: Cigarettes are not cool.

CHRIS UHLMANN: What's cool now is airbrushing the last place big tobacco can legally hawk its
wares: the packets themselves.

KEVIN RUDD: And when we say hard-line regime in terms of packaging for the future that is what we
mean. That is what will be in broad terms on the front and that is what you have in terms of where
you will indicate the particular brand in small print down the bottom of the actual package. This,
as I said, will be the most hardline regime for cigarette packaging anywhere in the world. For
which we make no apology whatsoever.

CHRIS UHLMANN: The packaging changes are slated to come into force in the middle of 2012 but from
midnight the tax on a packet of 30 cigarettes will be hiked from $2.16. That will net a
cash-strapped Government $5 billion over four years and all of it will be put into funding health.
The Government will also try to restrict internet tobacco advertising and it will inject an extra
$7 million a year into anti-smoking advertising. The health-case for more action is compelling.

KEVIN RUDD: Smoking kills over 15 thousand Australians every year.

NICOLA ROXON, HEALTH MINISTER: It is projected that this action alone will reduce the consumption
of tobacco by about six per cent and reduce the number of smokers by two to three percent.

CHRIS UHLMANN: Tobacco companies are expected to vigorously oppose the push for generic packaging.
British-American tobacco says:"We will defend the intellectual property which lies in that
packaging. If that requires us to take legal action, then we would do so. We would consider that to
be an acquisition of our property on unjust terms, so we would pursue compensation from the
Government."

KEVIN RUDD: the Government will not be paying any compensation to any tobacco company anywhere.

TIM WILSON, INSTITUTE OF PUBLIC AFFAIRS: Kevin Rudd today has said there is no way his Government
will hand out compensation to tobacco companies but that decision won't be made by him. It will be
made by the High Court. The High Court, you would assume, is going to take a legal position rather
than a moral position because a legal position will have to then be interpreted for future legal
cases where the Government may choose to proceed with plain packaging of other products.

CHRIS UHLMANN: The Government says it has robust legal advice, but property rights are etched in
the Constitution.

TIM WILSON: Australia has under its Constitution obligations that property rights must be
compensated for, and that includes trademarks, if they're removed by Government, or, if they're
significantly devalued and that is also a requirement under our obligations in the World Trade
Organisation and various other international treaties.

CHRIS UHLMANN: Some believe this is a smoke screen to cover the Government's recent spectacular
back flip on emissions trading.

TIM WILSON: The cynic in me says this is an extreme political stunt. They're trading one form of
emissions debate for another type of emissions debate.

CHRIS UHLMANN: But there is no doubt behaviour just changed Smokers are storming the shops.

CUSTOMER: Eight cartons.

INTERVIEWER: How much did that cost you?

CUSTOMER: 450 bucks.

CHRIS UHLMANN: Tim Wilson believes that if the Government wins this intellectual property fight
it's the thin edge of a very large wedge.

TIM WILSON: The precedent if Australia proceeds down this path won't just be for tobacco companies.
There have already been proposals and research completed overseas looking at the potential for
plain packaging of fast food products, of salty and fatty food products and even alcohol. This sort
of trend is only one of a number that we can see over the next few years.

CHRIS UHLMANN: The Prime Minister says this is a tough decision.

KEVIN RUDD: It won't win the Government any popularity.

CHRIS UHLMANN: But there is an enormous cheer squad of health activists who will fall in behind it.
Smokers are less enthused.

SMOKER 1: It's disgraceful I think, you know, they've kicked us out of pubs, everything else. Why
you gotta put up the cigarettes for?

SMOKER 2: Well, I'm quitting today so ... {laughs}

TONY ABBOTT, OPPOSITION LEADER: It's a panic tax by a Government which is as addicted to spending
as some people, sadly, are addicted to nicotine.

CHRIS UHLMANN: In the end this is a move the Coalition will find hard to oppose. Today there are
few who are willing to line up in a fight alongside big tobacco.

KERRY O'BRIEN: Political editor Chris Uhlmann.

Wilhelm walks free

Wilhelm walks free

Broadcast: 29/04/2010

Reporter: Deborah Cornwall

Eight years after the death of Dianne Brimble on a cruise ship, the man who was villainised for
causing her death has walked free.

Transcript

KERRY O'BRIEN, PRESENTER: It may surprise you to realize that it's now eight years since
42-year-old Dianne Brimble died naked and alone on a P&O cruise ship.

Her death from a cocktail of alcohol and the so-called party drug Fantasy sparked one of the most
sensational coronial inquiries in Australian history.

But after years of being villianised as the man who had caused Ms Brimble's death - Adelaide man
Mark Wilhelm walked from the NSW Supreme Court today, a free man.

In the end Wilhelm pleaded guilty to the charge of drug supply after manslaughter charges were
dropped last week. But the sentencing judge refused to punish him, saying Wilhelm had already
suffered enough.

Deborah Cornwall reports.

GEORGE THOMAS, DEFENCE LAWYER: It has taken a judge of the Supreme Court to wish Mr Wilhelm good
for the rest of his life. Today the rule of law has prevailed.

DEBORAH CORNWALL, REPORTER: Almost eight years after Dianne Brimble's death on the P&O party ship
the 'Pacific Sky' the long running legal saga over her last night on earth finally came to an end
today.

INTERVIEWER: Have you got any apology at all for the Brimble family?

DEBORAH CORNWALL: Mark Wilhelm, once the most reviled man in the country, making his last walk of
shame from the court after being convicted without penalty for the only charge that would stick in
the end, supply of the so-called party drug Fantasy.

LISA DAVIES, 'DAILY TELEGRAPH': Ultimately as it boiled down there was no evidence that Mark
Wilhelm had deliberately set out to cause any harm to Ms Brimble. As Justice Howie said she was
offered a drug and willingly took it. There was no evidence that it had been forced upon her.

PRESS: {inaudible}

DEBORAH CORNWALL: It's a remarkable turnaround since the 18 month coronial inquiry which generated
national outrage over the way Ms Brimble had died. Naked and alone on a cabin floor while Wilhelm
and his mates had partied on.

Last week the Crown Prosecutor suddenly withdrew the man slaughter charge against Wilhelm.

The trial judge, Justice Howie, noting that despite Wilhelm's appalling behaviour on the night, he
too had been a victim of sorts, charged with manslaughter following an inquest. A charge that
simply didn't stand up once it was stripped of all the public hysteria.

JUSTICE RODERICK HOWIE: "The coronial inquiry was, to the extent to which I am aware of it,
unfortunate in that it allowed a lot of material, which ultimately was irrelevant, to be exposed to
the media. ... One has to strip away from this matter simply bad, loutish, or maybe even
insensitive behaviour, and try and look past that to the real facts of this matter."

DEBORAH CORNWALL: Justice Howie's comments reflect a deep disquiet in legal circles about the way
the Brimble inquest had been elevated into a sort of modern morality play.

PHILIP BOULTEN, CRIMINAL DEFENCE LAWYERS ASSOCIATION: For the judge to make any comment about the
way Coronial inquests are conducted, in the context of someone pleading guilty to an offence, is a
very unusual step indeed.

It seems that the judge felt it necessary to dampen expectations in the community that were raised
as a result of the extraordinary degree of publicity that was surrounding, that surrounded, this
inquest.

DAVID MITCHELL, DIANNE BRIMBLE'S FORMER PARTNER: We've been looking for the end and it is here but
we were always trying to find the truth and unfortunately that's, it's sort of a bittersweet
feeling at the moment.

DEBORAH CORNWALL: Right from the start of the inquest Dianne Brimble had been cast as a
conservative prudish mother of three that had hooked up with Wilhelm and a bunch of his mates, men
she had never met before, after setting sail for the holiday of a lifetime.

Headed up by the then Deputy State Coroner of New South Wales, Jacqueline Millege, the inquest
opened with counsel assisting, Ron Honig, claiming there would be evidence Ms Brimble had been
killed. Her drink spiked with a lethal dose of the date rape drug Fantasy for the sole purpose of
sexually degrading her.

LISA DAVIES: From the outset Dianne Brimble was a woman who everyone could identify with and I
think the actions of the eight men on board that ship, not all of them, but the actions of a large
majority of those men, really helped polarised people's views.

We got unprecedented access to documents, to exhibits, to people and it really did turn into a bit
of a circus in that respect.

DEBORAH CORNWALL: One witness after another was paraded and humiliated for their behaviour that
night but in the end it came down to the actions of just two men.

Wilhelm who'd had sex with Ms Brimble after they had taken the drug Fantasy before he headed off on
a nude romp around the ship; and his gym buddy Leo Silvestri who later complained to police he had
woken in the night to find Ms Brimble naked in bed with him and demanded his money back because
she'd ruined his holiday.

LETTERIO SILVESTRI, POLICE INTERVIEW, 2002: I don't know, I just knew there was this fat thing
laying in my bed. and I just like, there somehow like yeah, like can you get off, you know
something like that. I tried to encourage her to f**kin' get out the door, leave, see you later.
Bye.

Didn't care about her. Didn't want to know about her. She smelt, she was black and she was ugly.

CATCALLER: Loser

DEBORAH CORNWALL: Such was the public outrage over the degrading treatment of Ms Brimble Wilhelm
and Silvestri were openly attacked on the street.

LISA DAVIES: I think what we saw was the absolute worst of human nature. You've got a woman naked,
crumpled on the floor, alone in a cabin of men she'd never met before, having lost control of her
bodily functions. People up the corridor laughing at this woman's predicament.

DEBORAH CORNWALL: In the end the inquest did lay bare a cruise culture of sex, drugs and random
violence that had been allowed to go unchecked for decades.

Revelations that have already led to wholesale reform of P&O and its parents company Carnival.

ANNE SHERRY, CEO, CARNIVAL AUSTRALIA: I mean if there's any good that comes out of something so
terrible it would be that we've fundamentally changed and the whole industry has fundamentally
changed. So, it was a wakeup call, its led to a lot of change.

KERRY O'BRIEN: Deborah Cornwall with that report.

Volcano chaos could have been avoided

Volcano chaos could have been avoided

Broadcast: 29/04/2010

Reporter: Tracy Bowden

An Australian CSIRO scientist says a device he developed that can be attached to aircraft to detect
volcanic ash in the atmosphere could have made a dramatic difference to the impact of the eruption
of Iceland's volcano.

Transcript

KERRY O'BRIEN, PRESENTER: Airlines have returned to normal schedules after the worldwide chaos
caused by the volcanic ash which spread from the eruption in Iceland.

But the cost has been high, both in dollar terms and the inconvenience to travellers around the
world.

As a result of the crisis, a former CSIRO scientist has had renewed interest in a device he
developed which can be attached to aircraft to detect volcanic ash in the atmosphere.

He says it could have made a dramatic difference to the impact of the recent crisis, but after the
CSIRO couldn't get a commercial backer to take it to the next step, he's now taken his idea
overseas.

Tracy Bowden reports.

TRACY BOWDEN: As volcanic ash spewed into the atmosphere, airline flights were cancelled around the
world and the travel plans of millions were thrown into disarray, one man was watching with
particular interest.

FRED PRATA, ATMOSPHERIC SCIENTIST: I'm fairly certain we could have had aircraft flying, in fact,
all through the crisis.

TRACY BOWDEN: Atmospheric scientist Fred Prata worked for the CSIRO for more than 20 years. During
that time he developed a volcanic ash detector which could be attached directly to aircraft.

FRED PRATA: The device measures infrared radiation so that's heat and we are able to detect
silicate particles in the atmosphere as opposed to ice or water vapour or water molecules which are
the normal constituents of meteorological clouds. So, the device actually detects the ash hazard in
the air.

GRAHAM PEARMAN, ATMOSPHERIC SCIENTIST, CSIRO (1992 - 2002): I thought it had value both from the
public good point of view but also the potential for commercial development.

TRACY BOWDEN: Back then Graham Pearman was head of the CSIRO's division of atmospheric research and
could see the potential.

GRAHAM PEARMAN: I thought on balance this was a good thing to invest in.

FRED PRATA: We field tested it a number of times actually. First with a very simple instrument way
back in 1991 to 93 in Japan, and then we field tested it again in 2003, this time more
sophisticated imaging instrument. So we did all the tests and found that it all worked.

TRACY BOWDEN: But the big challenge was finding the financial backing for the project.

GRAHAM PEARMAN: At the time it was this issue about, well who will fund it and how will we go
forward? Funding that kind of development was definitely not something that CSIRO would have done.
We would have had to have had partners from within the industry and at the time we couldn't find
them.

REPORTER, ABC NEWS, 1982: In this latest eruption a British Airways jet carrying 230 passengers was
nearly brought down...

TRACY BOWDEN: The impact volcanic ash can have on aircraft was dramatically illustrated back in
1982 when a British Airways 747 lost power in all four engines while flying over Indonesia.

It landed safely in Jakarta but that event led to the setting up of nine volcanic ash advisory
centres around the world. One of them in Darwin.

RESEARCHER: We didn't have any hotspots though did we?

RESEARCHER 2: Haven't seen any as yet.

REBECCA PATRICK, MANAGER, VOLCANIC ASH ADVISORY CENTRE: The South East Asian is one of the most
volcanically active regions in the world. For example, in Indonesia alone there's 130 active
volcanos that we keep an eye on.

RESEARCHER 3: It goes up to 35,000 feet.

TRACY BOWDEN: Manager Rebecca Patrick says the Centre's main source of information is satellite
imagery.

REBECCA PATRICK: As soon as we find out there's anything in the atmosphere that could be harmful we
issue volcanic ash advices.

TRACY BOWDEN: Fred Prata helped develop ash detection techniques used by the centre but his
aircraft device would have done much more.

FRED PRATA: We have satellites making measurements. We have models which are telling us where the
ash is going and we can draw rather conservative safety lines around the region that we think is
contaminated.

With the airborne detector it's more of a real time tactical solution. So, with it being on the
aircraft the pilot can then see the hazard and take control.

TRACY BOWDEN: The CSIRO's Graham Pearman may have supported the idea but his successors were less
than enthusiastic. Eventually Fred Prata left the organisation and he now lives and works in
Norway.

FRED PRATA: I wasn't very happy about it and I've moved on. I've found another job. I have
continued developing it and surprise, surprise the kind of thing that we were expecting has
happened.

TRACY BOWDEN: But the CSIRO's Bruce Mapsten says the organisation has no regrets about not taking
the project further.

BRUCE MAPSTEN, MARINE AND ATMOSPHERIC RESEARCH, CSIRO: The technology was assessed over several
years for its commercial prospects and a decision was made at the time, in 2007, based on the best
available information that there just wasn't a commercial prospect there for that technology at
that time.

TRACY BOWDEN: After the staggering global impact of the volcanic ash spreading across Europe from
Iceland there has been renewed interest in Fred Prata's device.

FRED PRATA: It's quite amazing. A number of inquiries from avionics companies in the US. An
airline, I probably shouldn't mention the name, has called me up and they want to meet me and talk
about putting it on their aircraft.

So, lots of positive things.

GRAHAM PEARMAN: And I was extremely disappointed when Fred did leave CSIRO but not only CSIRO,
Australia. He was a good scientist and he is a good scientist and every time you lose one of these
people overseas I think that's a loss to the community.

TRACY BOWDEN: Both Graham Pearman and Fred Prata believe that if his technology had been in use it
may have changed the impact of the volcano eruption in Iceland.

GRAHAM PEARMAN: One could debate, of course, if it had whether we would have had a fleet of
aircraft that would have been able to fly with their own capacity to determine whether in fact this
was risk rather than these overall blankets.

FRED PRATA: Aircraft with this on board could take off, fly to their destinations, if there's a
problem they can deviate from their path, they can change altitude or veer to the left or right.
So, I am pretty certain that we could have had aircraft flying.

TRACY BOWDEN: Fred Prata has renewed optimism that his design will eventually be on the market but
he is disappointed it won't happen in the country where it all started.

FRED PRATA: Much prefer to have it Australian. I mean, I have an Australian passport. All of my
children are Australian. So yeah, I'd much prefer it to be Australian but, you know, that's the way
it is.

KERRY O'BRIEN: A story that has some echoes. It's not the first time we've heard it. That report
from Tracy Bowden.

Political stoush over historic hotel

Political stoush over historic hotel

Broadcast: 29/04/2010

Reporter: Heather Ewart

A Victorian upper house committee is challenging the government's repeated refusal to allow
ministerial staffers to answer questions over a major planning controversy surrounding the
redevelopment of Melbourne's historic Hotel Windsor.

Transcript

KERRY O'BRIEN, PRESENTER: A political stoush in Victoria between the state government and the state
parliament's upper house, carries the threat of jail for one ministerial staffer, and could change
the ground rules for parliamentary enquiries around the country.

An upper house committee is challenging the government's repeated refusal to allow ministerial
staffers to answer questions over a major planning controversy surrounding the redevelopment of
Melbourne's historic Hotel Windsor.

The battle is over who has supremacy - the government or the parliament - and is developing into a
legal test case, with the government warning it will fight the issue in court

Heather Ewart reports from Melbourne.

HEATHER EWART, REPORTER: It's one of the nation's most famous and best loved institutions.
Melbourne's grand old Hotel Windsor has survived several changes of ownership over the decades and
threats of demolition.

Now it's embroiled in controversy once again over the state government's approval of its
multi-million dollar redevelopment and there's more at stake than the historic building itself.

MATTHEW GUY, VICTORIAN OPPOSITION PLANNING SPOKESMAN: We are simply seeking to find the truth
behind possible sham consultation into a massive redevelopment of a hotel in Melbourne.

JOHN BRUMBY, VICTORIAN PREMIER: If it can't be resolved it could end up in the courts.

DR GREG TAYLOR, MONASH LAW SCHOOL: The executive is trying to pull the wool over people's eyes or,
at least, appears to be trying to pull the wool over people's eyes.

GREG BARBER, GREENS MP: We haven't even yet established a contempt. That's for the chamber as a
whole to decide.

ROB HULLS, VICTORIAN ATTORNEY GENERAL: It's quite clearly nothing more than a political parlour
game, a political witch hunt.

HEATHER EWART: This is no longer just a dispute between the developers and historians over plans to
knock down part of the hotel to make way for new high rise accommodation.

This has become a full scale battle of wills between the executive government and the upper house
of the Victorian parliament over who has supremacy and the ramifications could be felt nationwide.

MATTHEW GUY: This goes to the heart of governments and governance in Victoria and indeed right
around Australia where a government will seek to hinder the parliament's ability to inquire about a
government decision making process.

GREG BARBER: Here we've had a situation where a media advisor was proposing a strategy whereby they
would cook up a fake consultation.

HEATHER EWART: The controversy erupted a few months ago when the media advisor to the state
planning minister, Justin Madden, accidentally sent an email to the ABC outlining a plan to knock
back the Windsor redevelopment and pretend it was due to community views.

All hell broke loose as the minister rushed to claim he had nothing to do with it.

JUSTIN MADDEN, VICTORIAN PLANNING MINISTER: The staffer will now be redeployed from that position
away from anything to do with planning.

HEATHER EWART: The staffer, Peta Duke, was redeployed alright but she's still not off the hook and
nor is the Government as an upper house committee decided to instigate an inquiry into the whole
affair and the government's planning processes.

It subpoenaed Peta Duke to appear along with two other members of the Premier's staff. The Premier
and the Attorney General ordered them not to show up.

JOHN BRUMBY: Advisors have never appeared before parliamentary committees and they won't be
appearing.

ROB HULLS: This is not new in Victoria. It's not new around Australia. In fact, I think it was John
Howard who invoked that principle for the children overboard inquiry where he made it quite clear
that staff wouldn't appear because it's ministers that are responsible. And so we don't, in
Victoria, intend to move from away from that process, from that convention.

HEATHER EWART: But the so called convention used by John Howard to stop staffers facing questions
by a Senate inquiry into the kids overboard affair in 2002 has never been legally tested. That
could all be about to change in what's emerging as a test case in Victoria.

DR GREG TAYLOR: The strict law this is that the committee is entitled, the house is entitled, to
demand the presence and an explanation from virtually anybody.

PETER KAVANAGH, DEMOCRATIC LABOR PARTY MP: This issue would establish a principle not only for
Victoria, I think, but for the whole of Australia and that's an important principle.

GREG BARBER: Wherever I go for advice on this whether it be academia, the law, or other precedents
from other Westminster parliaments that the advice is always the same. The parliament has the
powers it needs to scrutinise the government of the day.

ROB HULLS: There are all sorts of legal advises that are floating around in relation to a whole
range of issues.

HEATHER EWART: And we look set to find out what legal advice will prevail in this case.

At lunchtime today the government staffers, as directed by their bosses, failed to show up for a
scheduled inquiry hearing. The meeting was cancelled.

It was the second time former ministerial media advisor Peta Duke had ignored a subpoena.

GREG BARBER: From the Greens' point of view we think democracy is in deep trouble if the parliament
of the day can't hold the government to account.

DR GREG TAYLOR: The executive government is subject to the law.

The executive government at the moment are saying "well, we know what the law is but, because we
are the executive, it doesn't apply to us."

HEATHER EWART: The committee will meet here next week to decide the next step but all the signals
are it will recommend that Peta Duke now be summonsed to appear before the bar of the upper house.

The Liberal and National parties, the Greens and the DLP (Democratic Labor Party) have the numbers
to push this through. If she fails to turn up they also have the numbers to have her arrested for
contempt.

GREG BARBER: It's in the hands of the parliament to punish for contempt, after they establish a
contempt.

HEATHER EWART: Could you take it that far, that jail could be a possibility?

MATTHEW GUY: It's obviously an option that has been used by the Victorian parliament a 100 years
ago.

PETER KAVANAGH: Look, I think nobody wants to see people jailed. Jail is not an attractive option
for anybody but I guess, in the end, we may have to consider that.

HEATHER EWART: The State Government has already threatened to launch a legal challenge and the
catalyst would be this.

ROB HULLS: Of course, if anyone attempted to touch or approach political advisors illegally
obviously there would be questions about whether or not that is an assault and that is an offence.

HEATHER EWART: So far that threat holds no sway with the upper house committee members who maintain
ground rules need to be set for parliaments around the country.

PETER KAVANAGH: It's very important that we establish that principle, that parliament is supreme.

HEATHER EWART: Can I be clear about this? Are you prepared to go as far as you need to to establish
this principle?

PETER KAVANAGH: Yes I would, I am.

MATTHEW GUY: Well, clearly there are precedents that will be set in Victoria that could be used in
other parliaments around Australia.

HEATHER EWART: And you can bet those parliaments will be watching how this saga unfolds very
closely.

KERRY O'BRIEN: Heather Ewart Reporting from Melbourne.

The greatest moral challenge of our time

The greatest moral challenge of our time

Broadcast: 29/04/2010

Reporter: John Clarke and Brian Dawe

John Clarke and Bryan Dawe on what Kevin Rudd has called the greatest moral challenge of our time.

Transcript

KERRY O'BRIEN, PRESENTER: Time now for John Clarke and Bryan Dawe on Kevin Rudd's great moral
challenge.

BRYAN DAWE, INTERVIEWER: Good evening Prime Minister

JOHN CLARKE (KEVIN RUDD, PRIME MINISTER): Good evening to you Bryan.

Thanks for joining us. Mr Rudd you've put the ETS (Emissions Trading Scheme) on the backburner.

JOHN CLARKE: Temporarily yes, Bryan, yes.

BRYAN DAWE: Temporarily?

Temporarily, yes, we'll be revisiting it Bryan. We have decided to just defer it slightly at the
moment.

BRYAN DAWE: So can you tell us about this backburner?

JOHN CLARKE: The backburner, yes what would you like to know about the backburner Bryan?

BRYAN DAWE: Well, is it is a coal driven backburner?

JOHN CLARKE: Bryan, it's a metaphor.

BRYAN DAWE: Sorry, it's a metaphorical backburner?

JOHN CLARKE: It's a metaphorical backburner, for making, it's a figure of speech Bryan, it's a way
of describing to you a concept.

BRYAN DAWE: Yes I understand what a metaphor is Prime Minister.

JOHN CLARKE: Yeah, yeah, well that's what it is Bryan.

BRYAN DAWE: But hang on is the ETS real?

JOHN CLARKE Oh the ETS Is real Bryan.

BRYAN DAWE: Oh that's real.

JOHN CLARKE: An enormous amount, a bewildering amount of work has gone in to the establishment and
development of probably the finest ETS in the world.

BRYAN DAWE: So, the ETS is real.

JOHN CLARKE: Very real.

BRYAN DAWE: But it's on a metaphorical backburner?

JOHN CLARKE: That's right Bryan, metaphorical backburner,

BRYAN DAWE: Temporarily?

JOHN CLARKE: Temporarily, on a metaphorical backburner.

BRYAN DAWE: Right, now, is this a coal burning metaphorical backburner?

JOHN CLARKE: For goodness sake Bryan does it matter?

BRYAN DAWE: Well, OK, OK, humour me, theoretically?

JOHN CLARKE: Theoretically, Bryan, it might as well be a coal burning metaphorical backburner. Yes.

BRYAN DAWE: Why?

JOHN CLARKE: Well, how are you going to fire a metaphorical backburner?

BRYAN DAWE: Well, some other form of energy for example.

JOHN CLARKE: Like what for example?

BRYAN DAWE: Solar, geothermal

JOHN CLARKE: Hot rocks?

BRYAN DAWE: Well why not?

JOHN CLARKE: Very expensive Bryan, very expensive.

BRYAN DAWE: Well why are they so expensive?

JOHN CLARKE: Well because the technology is not fully developed and there is insufficient
investment money, certainly now, to develop it properly and in any event, Bryan you need to get
economies of scale to kick in order for the unit costs to come down.

BRYAN DAWE: But why not do that?

JOHN CLARKE: Well, because we've got coal Bryan.

BRYAN DAWE: Mr Rudd isn't coal the problem?

JOHN CLARKE: Right, we're talking about a metaphor.

BRYAN DAWE: Okay, let me ask you about the coal.

JOHN CLARKE: No, Bryan, look your problem is with the Metaphor. Let me pick another metaphor. We've
got an ETS, it's very real, we are very committed to it but we've mothballed it.

BRYAN DAWE: You mothballed it?

JOHN CLARKE: Yeah, we've put it in mothballs.

BRYAN DAWE: Are we still talking in metaphors?

JOHN CLARKE: Yes Bryan. You were struggling with the other, I thought we would go for a new one,
but we've put it in mothballs ...

BRYAN DAWE: Mr Rudd, Mr Rudd didn't you say that this is the greatest moral dilemma of our time?
Did you not say that?

JOHN CLARKE: No moths are actually injured Bryan during the process I'm describing to you.

BRYAN DAWE: Global warming?

JOHN CLARKE: Global warming, I'm sorry, global warming is a moral dilemma, oh yes, of gargantuan
dimensions.

BRYAN DAWE: So, what are you going to do about it?

JOHN CLARKE: Well, we're gonna wait and see what everyone else is going to do about it.

BRYAN DAWE: And then what?

JOHN CLARKE: Well, you know, we'll give it a look, take it out, give it a run around.

BRYAN DAWE: Thanks for your time.

JOHN CLARKE: Oh, my pleasure Bryan, lovely to see you.

BRYAN DAWE: By the way where do we tell get our metaphors from?

JOHN CLARKE: Backburners and metaphors and mothballs?

BRYAN DAWE: Yeah

JOHN CLARKE: Oh we we get em from China Bryan, yeah.

BRYAN DAWE: Oh really?

JOHN CLARKE: Yeah we sell them coal in ships and we get back empty ships and metaphors.