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Business Sunday -

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(generated from captions) This program is live captioned.

I'm Ali Moore. Good morning.

Welcome to Business Sunday. long-awaited review. Now we've seen Telstra's long-awaited interview. We've got Sol Trujillo's

The issue here in Australi infrastructure of this countr is that nobody invests in the core other than Telstra they've created competitive model In other countries around the worl competitors where you do have legitimate they build infrastructure They risk their capital, and they compete head to head trying to save the reef. As well, big business goes troppo John Schubert's regular attire. A wetsuit and fins isn't

can usually be found The Commonwealth Bank chairman and Sydney. in the boardrooms of Melbourne But in his role as the head Foundation, it's a different world. of the Great Barrier Reef Research it's just fabulous. Wow, the number of fish, a nostalgic trip back to Adelaide, Also - Rupert Murdoch takes to the new Fairfax boss David Kirk. and we speak to the life

First, the news. Australian model Michelle Leslie this morning is due to arrive in Sydney Indonesian jail yesterday after she was freed from her on drugs charges. after being found guilty to three months jail She was sentenced casual drug user and not a smuggler. after convincing judges she was a

to be going home I'm so exhausted, really excite to be out of Indonesi and just really relieve and, you know, I'm really grateful who have supported me to all the people behind bars, Having already served 90 days last night the 24-year-old flew to Singapore to Sydney before boarding another flight at about 11:00am. which is due to arrive

Van Nguyen Lawyers for condemned drug smuggler

International Court of Justice are considering an appeal to the his death sentence overturned. in a last-ditch bid to have There are some options to pursue.

6.5 on the Richter scale A earthquake measuring island, triggering a tsunami alert. has struck Indonesia's Sumatra The quake struck 30km under the sea of the town of Sinabang with an epicentre 53km south-west

off the coast of northern Sumatra. to the December 26 quake The epicentre was close killing at least 180,000 people. that caused a massive tsunami, of damage or casualties. There have been no immediate reports

have combined in a statement Leaders in the Asia-Pacific region for concessions on trade. to pressure Europe

has closed, The APEC meeting in South Korea Australia included, with its 21 members, agricultural barriers. calling for a deal to remove before leaving South Korea - John Howard's last public engagement

Memorial Cemetery. a visit to a United Nations'

BRASS BAND PLAYS killed in the Korean War. He laid a wreath for Australians

281 are buried here. dressed in Korean silk overcoats, APEC ended with the 21 leaders, agreeing on a joint trade statement. pressure the European Union Their aim - to relax agricultural protection. into matching an American offer

And I'm very pleased at the APEC meetin that the economies represente on that issue were willing to speak with one voice a foregone conclusion. It had not been Even as the leaders met, were fighting back Korean farmers, police in the host city protesting APEC's free trade focus. has a strong protectionist lobby. Also, key member Japan

John Howard flies to Pakistan. From here, He will meet President Musharraf security and earthquake relief, in a visit likely to focus on Heads of Government Meeting. before flying on to the Commonwealth National Nine News. In Busan, Tim Lester, to press the Chinese President George W. Bush plans ballooning trade surplus to rein in the country's frank discussions on trade. in what he says will be says he will also urge China The US President

and religious reforms to make political for a week-long tour of Asia. as he arrived in Beijing

for the meetings China has struck an optimistic tone from Boeing by agreeing to purchase 70 planes in a deal worth billions of dollars. The bloodshed continues in Iraq, in suicide attacks overnight. with 43 people killed was targeted by one bomber, A tent filled with Shi'ite mourners

and detonated explosives, who drove a car into their gathering killing 30 people. in Baghdad, Earlier, a car bomb hit a busy market and injuring 20 others. claiming another 13 lives one hour later, It was followed by another bomb, but no-one was killed in that attack have made a breakthrough, Police meanwhile arresting four people mosques, which killed 75 people. over yesterday's bombing of two

To sport - a victory on their tour of Europe, and the Wallabies have finally had overcoming Ireland 30-14 in Dublin of seven Test matches. to end their losing streak by three points at half-time The Wallabies were down in the second half, but scored three tries igniting the charge. with full-back Chris Latham COMMENTATOR: All his own work. Drew Mitchell scored twice

conversions and three penalties and Matt Rogers kicked three on coach Eddie Jones. to ease the pressure

title against New Zealand Australia will defend its Tri-Nation next weekend of Great Britain this morning. after burying the hopes four tries to two, The Kangaroos scored by Brent Tate. including another long-range effort been missed and Tate's away, COMMENTATOR: Another tackle's

and Tate will score for Australia. was sin-binned twice Five-eighth Trent Barrett with a thigh injury. while Craig Gower came off early West Indian great Brian Lara run scorer in Test history. has become the second-highest on the list Lara moved past Steve Waugh of the second Test against Australia, as he finished day three unbeaten on 18. in deep trouble at 4/82 But the Windies are still

in their second innings and needing another 175 runs at Bellerive Oval. to make Australia bat again Taking a look at the weather around the country: I'll be back at 8:30 with an update, but now it's back to Ali.

Back in a moment with the one-time All Black captain,

who these days is working across the Tasman, Fairfax boss David Kirk.

Look at the line here for New Zealand, Kirk, David Kirk. The inaugural World Cup has gone to this marvellous New Zealand side

Declining circulation is hitting newspaper groups to varying degrees around the world and Australia's Fairfax is no exception. The publisher of the 'Melbourne Age' and the 'Sydney Morning Herald' faces the challenge of boosting sale and turning its Internet readership into cash. Just over a month into his new job, CEO David Kirk's biggest announcement to date has been the cutting of up to 60 staff, a move which has angered journalists and became a focus for this week's meeting of shareholders. A former All Black captain,

David Kirk has now formally taken over the seat on the Fairfax board held by departed boss Fred Hilmer who was given a $4.5 million golden goodbye. David Kirk joins me in the studio. Good

morning. Good morning. I can't

start this without asking you about

the Wallabies first. Have they

turned the corner? There's a long

way to G it's great for them to get

a win. It could start something

a win. It could start something for

them. I wonder if it will be harder

to fix their problems than Fairfax

problems. You forecast 1% to 4%

earnings growth. 17% was the same

time last year. How tough is the

business? Advertising markets have

moderated. This time last year was

an boom period, Christmas boom

period, six months. It couldn't last. We

last. We have seen the markets come

off most particularly in NSW and in

employment and real estate in NSW.

It was not expected. It was not

unexpected that the markets would

slow down. All media companies have

been saying. That. What are you

forecasting for advertising

growth? We have not agiven a

specific forecast for tides specific forecast for tides

advertising growth. Clearly it is

a reduction in advertising growth

that is driving the

that is driving the relatively that is driving the relatively

modest profit outcome. What will modest profit outcome. What will

Christmas look like? It is

interesting because it is very late

We see signs that all the advertising programs you would

expect of a normal Christmas are

coming through. Given the outlook,

what is the strategy? The strategy

for the business is many-fold.

Focus on the newspapers first and

the core of the company. Those

newspapers are fantastic vehicles

newspapers are fantastic vehicles

for advertisers. They have

fantastic heritage and place in

Australian history. We have to do bet where those newspapers. In

particular, we have to focus on

circulation and readership. That is

in the major metropolitan papers.

There are a whole lot of things we

can do to better present the papers

to advertisers. We can cross-sell

them more effectively. We have

suburb and, metro and regional

papers. We can do a lot of things

papers. We can do a lot of things

with production and circulation and

management of subscriptionss,

frintion. Specifically how? How do

you want to make people want to get

the newspaper delivered to their

home? What did you do to change the

look of the paper to make it more

at trackive? It has never changed

for newspapers. Have you to be for newspapers. Have you to be

compelling. You have to put out a compelling. You have to put out a

paper that people want to read and

buy, they want to have land on

their front lawn and they want to go

go through, if it is a morning

paper, as they are all these days,

to start their day to set that

cycle of understanding of the news

and what is going on in the world

around them. What can you do that

is different to what you do today?

Editorial leadership is a new issue

We have a new editor at the 'Age'

and a new editor of the 'Sydney

Morning Herald'. He has been there

a couple of weeks. That leadership

is first. We need to position the paper,

paper, the way we put it together,

the type of stories we run and the

way we present the front of the

book. I think there is a lot we can

do with the product . Would you

ever go tabloid in format? You

never say never on anything. There

are no plans to move into that are no plans to move into that

direction today . The other is is

the Internet readership which has

been growing which people get it

for free now. How do you make money

out testify? It is a different model to some

model to some extent. In principle,,

it is the same model. You bring

people tower news and advertise

around that we are not able to have

as many ads, display ads around the

news sites. That is the first point

We need to keep working on that as

our audience grows and we continue

to be, as we are today, to be the to be, as we are today, to be the

leading online news site as the gap widens, we will

widens, we will make more money

out of Internet. Would it only be

from advertising or will you start

charging for access to the dailys?

Before I come to, that the other

issue is crass classifyed

advertising. It is displayed around

the sites. It is the same as

newspapers - it is bringing buyers

and sellers together. You need

adyeps and inventory. You need

people wanting to sell things. We

have organic plans to

have organic plans to sell T on the

issue of subscription, it is

difficult to charge for some of the

things you can charge for in a

physical world as opposed to a

virtual world. We have shown with

our business media d the AFR, which

is a subscription model, that you

can. People that understand the

value of information, business

readers, are prepared to pay a

subscription model on line. We will

continue to develop that ont basis

continue to develop that ont basis

base . Have you announced some 60

job cuts in the AFR. Why not? The

AFR has continued to manage its

head count and the way it manages head count and the way it manages

its business processes such that

that business has pretty much got

the right balance of staff. It is

to revenue. The revenue outlook we

can seagoing forward. The 60 cuts you have

you have announced at the SMH and

the 'Age', is that it? They are

voluntary redundancy. We have voluntary redundancy. We have reserved the right to go further.

We hope that is not the case. We it

is quite common for all businesses,

and media businesses included, as

cycles turn and as cost bases are

not aligned with revenue outlook to

make those changes. So we've made

them. We can't give you any ongoing

commitments about the what the right staff level is over

right staff level is over time. But

there are no other plans to date.

Your chairman was very upbeat this

week about the future of Fairfax,

particularly in the context of

legal changes. You have talked

about being more aggressivelyive

with" more considered risk requests with" more considered risk requests

". What does it mean? It means what

we said. It means Fairfax is well-positioned in the Australian

media with a strong balance sheet

wa board that is very coheensive and

wa board that is very coheensive

and keen to grow the company and a

chief executive aligned with that

What is more aggressive? It is more

aggressive. I was talking about the

the aggression in culture of the

company as well, both strategic and

commercial, so that was part of the

context there. More aggressive as

in more considered risks to make

acquisitions or start products or

launch things, to position the

company for growth. Growth inevitably

inevitably is more risky because

you often are putting costs out

there before you can see whether

the revenue will work. When you

look at acquisitions, what to you

like? Your chairman has been

hesitant about television? Do you

like radio or and other newspapers?

I like business thaz have strategic

coherence with where we are at alt today. In other words, they are

complementary. We offer a better

service to our readers or customers

or people that consume the media or

or people that consume the media or

we offer a better option to

advertiser. Those things have to

be fundamental in everything we do

put them together and we will have

sinnergys and a better business. It

is not a medium you favour?

Free-to-air television is D

free-to-air television has many

challenges. A lot of media have

many challenges. Clearly the

Internet will be a big part of any growth strategy.

growth strategy. Fairfax digital is

only 3% only of revenues. In three

years time, what will it be? I will

not get you to set me a target

because you will come back every

year and asking me who I am going

achieving T It could be

substantial? It needs to be more

substantial. There's no doubt about

that. David Kirk, thanks for joining us. Thank you. When we return - Qantas chair Margaret Jackson on jobs and foreign ownership. The 49% foreign ownership limit has actually cost us billions of dollars in extra cost of capital.

This week Qantas had a massive celebration for its 85th birthday and to welcome its new aircraft, the Airbus A380. But in early December the Qantas board will sit down for one of the most important meetings in the airline's history. The board will decide on whether to set up Jetstar International, whether to send more than 3,000 engineering jobs overseas

and how it will spend up to $20 billion on new aircraft. Ross Greenwood caught up with Qantas chairman Margaret Jackson. This week we've had the A-380 in Australia. Qantas was proudly a launch customer of the A380, making innovative decisions with Airbus for a fleet of the future. Now the December 7 decision is we're looking at the range of aircraft -

long range - so that we can fly further over the hubs that we currently over. We're also looking at smaller aircraft that you can fly point to point. So I think we're looking at in total over 100 aircraft, so it is a huge decision. Well, as you talk about the future of the airline, how important will it be

for Qantas to be able to fly direct from Australia to, say, Londo

or New York Well, the aircraft is now available that it's possible to plan that we could have a flight that was direct to London, we could have a flight that was direct to New York. But it might be even more significant that we could have an aircraft that could get direct to Dallas and you would then be in the hub with American Airlines. That might be a very attractive destination,

That might be a very attractive destination, or other destinations in Europe which you could fly to direct. So aircraft make the possibility of the route structure very different for the future. Can you genuinely see in the future that Jetstar could fl into, say, the US or into Europe I think you can never say 'never'. Having the aircraft available to single destinations is very important throughout Asia.

Likewise, I think in the future we will find that we will be going long haul to Europe as well. Jetstar was important for changin the cost but also the way in which people work inside this company How does that fit If you look back at Qantas's histor over the last 10 years, we've grown jobs significantly. We've had 10,000 extra jobs in 10 years.

Even since September 11, we've only had 400 compulsory redundancies.

Even though we had about 3,000 people that left Qantas in that period, we actually created 7,000 new jobs.

But when you see reports that the airline is considerin

sending 3,200 engineering job overseas, can you understand why worker would be nervous It's a very serious question for Australia

and it's a very serious question for Qantas

what happens with our engineering and maintenance jobs because they are very high tech jobs. We have 500 apprentices. So our role as part of the infrastructure and the engineering talent in Australia, we take very seriously that role. So it is not only a question for Qantas but it is a question for Australia in the skill base that we have in Australia.

But we have to be cost competitive because if we're not cost competitive, then we won't be able to grow jobs for Australia in the future.

Qantas this week had a very large and spectacular 85th birthda in Brisbane If you like, to me anyway, it wasn't just a celebratio but a very strong message to government But curiously that message wasn't delivered by, say, yo or Geoff Dixon

It was delivere by Nancy Bird Walton, the pioneer aviatrix hands off Qantas, hands off our air routes It seemed curious Well, I think Nancy Bird is an extraordinary Australian and I think she truly understands the challenges of aviation. It is a very, very complex industry, very fiercely competitive. When you look at what we do in Australia,

we have one of the most open market in the world. Anyone from the world could come and start an airline in Australia. We can't do that in other countries We're Australia. We need a strong, vibrant aviation industry in Australia as well. I'm concerned about what jobs my grandchildren are going to have. I don't want them just to be able to make cappuccinos.

I want serious jobs in Australia. So we need to take that into account. There's a strong argument by a lot of people from the tourism industry to let the foreign carriers come and the tourists will come. That's not necessarily true because the foreign carriers are often about taking people from Australia, not necessarily bringing people to Australia.

We've been talking about the Pacific, which is what Singapore Airlines want access to. The facts are that last year Qantas had 400,000 empty seats. The prices across the Pacific have never been lower. Any American airline can come on the route. If it was such a lucrative route, they would all be there,

but they're not. But the idea of Qanta as that great Australian brand, doesn't it slightly fly in the face of the campaign you've ha with the Federal Government to try to get the 49% foreig ownership restriction lifted Qantas was owned 25% by BA. That didn't make Qantas less Australian. You can have - and we've suggested to government that one of the trade-offs may be -

a kangaroo share to guarantee

that the control will always remain within Australia. You can guarantee that the chairman is always an Australian, that the board is always Australian, that the place of running the business is always in Australia So you can actually guarantee that the business of Qantas is Australia

but still have access to the global capital markets. So what is the Government's ide when you actually put those idea to them Well, it's very complicated. Some people are sympathetic and some are not so sympathetic.

But in the studies we've done, it's very compelling that the 49% foreign ownership limit has actually cost us billions of dollars in extra cost of capital

Margaret Jackson, thanks for your time Thank you very much. And in the 'Sunday' program today - the vexed question of industrial relations reform. A behind-the-scenes look at who's pulling the levers of the IR machine I think it's the beginning of the power being returned to the hands of ordinary workers in Australia

rather than people saying we're just going to go along with whatever the union bosses tell us to do.

The Government's now betting its shirt on this mild mannered minister and his 700 pages of legislation. Labor thinks it's the biggest mistake the PM's ever made. And next on Business Sunday - local investors share their thoughts on the performance of News Corp. The dividend aren't anything substantial

Each year he says, "It's coming it's coming, but it hasn't come yet To be very honest, it's gone nowhere.

Rupert Murdoch renews his ties with Adelaide shortly. But now a news update. Michelle Leslie is on a plane flying back to Australia after spending three months in a Balinese jail for the possession of two ecstasy tablets.

The 24-year-old is due to touch down in Sydney at about 11 this morning. The APEC meeting in South Korea has closed with its 21 members, Australia included, calling for a deal with Europe to remove agricultural barriers. And the Wallabies have snapped out of their nightmare losing streak with a tense 30-14 victory over Ireland at Lansdowne Road,

which included a two-try performance from winger Drew Mitchell. More news in the 'Sunday' program at 9:00. Ali. Rupert Murdoch made a nostalgic trip back to Adelaide this week to open a new building dedicated to his father, Sir Keith Murdoch. He also held a briefing for shareholders describing News Corporation's share price as rotten and saying it didn't do justice to the company's true potential. Murdoch then went on to make pronouncements

on a wide range of subjects. Ross Greenwood was there. As you know, this is not a legal general meetin but it's more of a courtes and informational meetin and a chance to meet all our old friends in Adelaide and to reaffirm our ties here

And a renewal of ties it was. The family gathered, including Rupert Murdoch's mother, Dame Elizabeth. They dedicated a new building to the family patriarch - the late Sir Keith Murdoch - who started the empire at the 'Adelaide News'. Rupert Murdoch and News Corporation are as iconic to Adelaide as the River Torrens or Memorial Drive. But News Corporation the company of course is now based in Delaware which begs the question as to whether Adelaide will lose yet another one of its key commercial interests and whether that relationship with the family can go on. Well, Adelaide is more an emotional link, I would say, an historical link How long can the name 'Murdoch be linked with News That will depend on bot the desire and the abilit of future generation and of, you know, the opinion of the independent director of the company The shareholders certainly understan their investment is linked with the history of the Murdoch family. I suppose it's almost a romantic attachment because I've had the for a fair while But sometimes I question it because the dividend aren't anything substantial

Particularly with the dividend, that's been low for a quite a number of years

And we keep asking him each year, and each year he says, "It's coming, it's coming", but it hasn't come yet To be very honest, it's gone nowhere And those shareholders have a good point. In the past three years while the All Ordinaries index without dividends has increased more than 50%, News shares have slumped by 15%. Murdoch told shareholders the price was rotten. He compared it with his peers at Disney and Time Warner and expressed amazement at the habits of many Australian investors who were forced to sell when News Corp departed local indices. We were shocked to find out that most of the Australia investment in News Cor had fallen into the hands of these sort of idiot free and I mean that - index links

The good news for shareholders, directors and management

is that Rupert Murdoch at this meeting was in top form. Newspapers in Australia... Will we start new newspapers? No Well, major ones, no does he favour changes to cross-media ownership laws? Not the ones that have bee talked about, which seem to favour purel the free televisio and to be almost deliberatel designe to put Foxtel out of business And did he take the company to America to avoid local corporate governance conditions? I'd say that is bullshit Anyone who goes to America, or anyone in America, the majority of companie are incorporated in Delaware The future of News Corporation is not in Adelaide but in the politics that will be played out by the board and shareholders in New York and by the attitude of rival - or is that friendly rival? - John Malone and his 18% interest. So will News buy Malone out? I there's very little chance of it There's very little chance of it We have a very good relationship The last thing that Joh ha is a management to run this compan or the appetite When we come back, an audience with Telstra's Sol Trujillo. I don't predict the share price, My job is to create a plan that creates value and we'll let the market set the share price

A big week for Telstra, up to 12,000 jobs to go, a potential profit fall of 30% and no special dividend. It's all part of the long-awaited turnaround strategy of new CEO Sol Trujillo, who's planning a $10 billion transformation of the telco, including building new networks. By 2010, Trujillo has targeted profit growth of up to 5%.

But before the gain, the pain of that sharp fall in earnings and higher costs to pay for the changes. And it's all dependent on what the company calls a reasonable regulatory outcome. The market response has been sceptical.

The stock downgraded as investors focused on the risks. With Sol Trujillo on a very tight schedule, I caught up with him immediately after this week's marathon strategy presentation

in Sydney. This is make or break for Telstra? Well, I don't know that I would characterise it that wa because Telstra is obviousl a big compan that generates a lot of revenue and it generates some profits But the trends have bee dramatically going the wrong way, whether it be revenues going dow or costs going up So this is about transformin the compan to get it ready for the next 5 to 1 years of its life

Of all that's been announced today, how big is the regulatory caveat? Well, the regulatory caveat is bi because it will affect revenue and it will affect certai of our investment plans But it is not the only variable As I said to all the investor community today, there are certain thing we're going to do We're going to streamline our business We need to do that

We're going to innovate more aggressively than we ever have We need to do that We're going to deploy our wireles broadband network, as we talked about today, our 3G network We're going to do that regardles of what happens What won't you do? What we don't won't do, dependin upon the severity of the decisions, What we won't do, depending upon the severity of the decisions,

we won't look to make some of the core network investments, whether it be fibre to the node, fibre to the curb, the kinds of things that will enable fixed line broadban throughout all of Australia Because we have a duty to all of our shareholder to provide returns on the capital that would be invested If decisions are such that if we can't make money doing it, you don't do it

But ultimately wouldn't you be cutting your nose off to spite your face if you don't make that investment? The issue here in Australi is that nobody invests in the core infrastructure of this countr other than Telstra Those that are so-calle competitors, what they tend to do is they ten to invest on things that ride on to of the core network investment This is highly unique to Australia In other countries around the world, they've created competitive model

where you do have legitimate competitors They risk their capital, they build infrastructure and they compete head to head That's what makes markets excitin in other parts of the worl because customers have real choice. If you don't invest in fibre to the node, you're opening the way for your competitors to push ahead with putting their own equipment in your exchange and taking your customers.

They have that capability today But they won't have the capability

to the same extent if you do the fibre to the node. Well, I mean, they can ris their capital

See, our shareholders, their missio in life is not to subsidise other shareholders That's an important message that we're trying to make sure that everybody understands So our shareholders can't tell the Government what to do I can't tell the Government what to do But what we can do is make our ow decision

about how we invest the capital

So in essence, anything less than what you've put forward is unacceptable? Well, we need to have pricin such that we can recover our costs It is unacceptable if it's below our cost Everybody needs to understan we have a legal responsibility, a fiduciary responsibilit to our shareholders, all of our shareholders, to make sure that every investment we make we're making money on

What do you say to those who look at what you've announced today and say, "You've given yourself the ultimate get-out clause?" Well, what we talked about toda was what was possible, what we think we can do And if those that want to be sceptical and say, "Can you do it?", let us do it because we know how to compete, we know how to execute

and we know how to create value You're forecasting earnings falling up to 24% this year, up to 30% if you take a redundancy provision, which is highly likely. This is going to get a lot worse before it gets better? Well, any time you go throug a transformation you can look at almost compan in any industry around the world when you make a fundamental decisio to change and you're going to make some significant investment,

you start accelerating depreciatio of asset

that will be replaced ultimately You start taking provisions for redundancies made in the busines and you start investing in some of the equipment and processe that are about to be change because you want to do it as quickly as possible That's why you'll see big bubble in terms of some of the change in negative earning

during that period of time But the real important question is what happens when you're past that bubble The story today was that by 2010, in the 2009-2010 period, this company called Telstr will start getting to $6 billio plus of free cash flow generate if we execute on this plan If I can ask it from a more personal perspective,

how different has the experience in this country been to what you expected so far? The people of Australi I think are highly unique They are very special Literally, you know, almost every da I still have people coming u and wishing me well in terms of my entry into Australia, my becoming a citizen here To this day, I've not had anybod come up in a negative fashion

There's comments made in the media, but not unexpecte because obviously Telstra i the largest company in Australia

It is the single largest market company in Australi so it deserves attention It has 1.6 million shareholders that are mums and dads in this country Well, it does have a lot of impact and we reach everybod so that's true

On the other side in term of the other issues, not reall because there is always this tensio between regulators and companies And you're happy with the way relations have panned out with the Government? Well, I'm not happy with wit the they have panned out Well, I'm not happy with the wa they have panned out because I would always like a muc more collaborative and constructive kin of relationship

But in every country I can tell you in the US of acrimony, you went through period of real tensio and finally people learn that letting the marketplace wor is always the best principle because consumers benefit the most Will T3 get away on the Government's timetable? My view coming into Australia wa it was my understandin that the company, the board of directors and also the Government

wanted to see T3 happen And when I say the Government, I mean all of the Government, not part of the Government in term of doing that when I came here

Now do I think T3 can get off I do believe that it' a possibility I do think that it's the right thin to do And the question is will all of government be in sync A possibility, not a probability?

I don't know When will we see a five in front of the share price along the Government lines? I don't predict share price My job is to create a pla that creates value and we'll let the market set the share price Sol Trujillo, thank you very much for talking to Business Sunday. Thank you

And of course the market has set the share price. It closed the week at $4.12, down 4.5%. After the break - shifting the corporate focus onto a different environment. Getting these people up onto the reef, going out with the scientists and seeing the coral and fish through their eyes, it's the most powerful thing I think we can do.

Corporate Australia has always had a natural affinity

with large sporting events. And more recently it's been the arts benefiting, as blue chips flock to have their logos stamped on everything from orchestras to ballet programs. Environmental causes have been less fashionable but now big business is getting behind one of Australia's natural wonders - the Great Barrier Reef. Katrina Nicholas reports from Heron Island. Heron Island is a tiny speck measuring just 800m long and 300m wide but it's what is underneath that matters. Thousands of turtles use this minute coral cay as a breeding ground.

But this weekend, an even more exotic species paid a visit. A wetsuit and fins isn't John Schubert's regular attire. The Commonwealth Bank chairman can usually be found in the boardrooms of Melbourne and Sydney. But in his role as head of the Great Barrier Reef Research Foundation,

it's a different world. The number of fish, it's fabulous. The Great Barrier Reef is just so important to Australia's image it's hugely important economically, it's worth about $5 billion a year to the Australian economy, provides for about 60,000 jobs and the reef is under some threat Joining Schubert, investment bankers Alastair Walton and Peter Young.

Well, I think the important thing here is they get to experience the reef, they get to see how wonderful it is and they get to hear from the experts really what is going on from an insider's point of view. Heron's research station was established more than 50 years ago. Its proximity to the reef means scientists can collect, study

and return marine life within a short period of time. And rounding out this weekend's grou the who's who of Great Barrier Reef research scientists. That's beautiful. This is the reef foundation's inaugural trip away, a chance for the executives to come and see the scientists' work first-hand and hopefully be persuaded to put their hands in their pockets. Business and art have been partnering over a lon period of time and very successfully I think what I've tried to do is replicate some of that success Judy Stewart is the foundation's managing director. She organised the weekend and believes up to $10 million a year is needed to help secure the reef's future. Sydney and Melbourne are a long wa from the Great Barrier Reef Getting these people up o to the reef in an environment that is relaxe and casual, barefoot and everybody all in together, going out with the scientist and seeing the coral and fis through their eyes, it is the most powerful thin that I think we can do The research foundation was formed almost seven years ago

but to date has secured just $4.5 million from the top end of town. While corporate dollars flow freely to big ticket sporting events, natural resources like this one go begging. Perhaps part of the problem is the lack of tangible benefits. There are no corporate boxes and you can forget about direct advertising out here. A lot of companies are developin a much more significant environmental profile as part of their corporate social responsibility profile So the Great Barrier Reef is a pretty easy one It's not that controversial to embrace Well, there's been many surveys of the community that have shown quite clearly that if business invests both time and money in worthwhile causes, community causes, then they're looked upon much more favourably and they're likely to have better customer reactions and better shareholders reactions and generally allowed to operate more freely. Mining giant Rio Tinto is a case in point. Doubtless it has more than a few environmental bridges to mend,

but subsidiary Comalco has made a start, striking a $1 million deal with the foundation to research greenhouse gas emissions If you look at our operations in Queensland, they span from Weipa down into Gladstone and then our headquarters in Brisbane.

So that marries pretty closely the footprint of the Great Barrier Reef so there's natural geographical association between us and the reef According to Comalco's chief financial officer, staff will benefit too.

The employees are just really quite anxious to get involved. There's going to be some coming here in January next year

so that will be the first wave and there will be a very long queue, I suspect. And while these weekends are designe with some relaxation in mind, it's not all snorkelling and cocktails on the beach.

Over the glacial cycle of the past 400,000 years... I think we can learn a lot as a science community

from the way business goes about its activities. We hope vice versa - that we can bring some of the issue and insights into the way our most valuable environmental asset works. But business, of course, wants sustainability and has a long-term vision. Heron Island's research station director Ove Hoguld-Berg is worried that unless the science community forges closer ties with big business, one of Australia's most valuable assets may be lost.

50% of the reefs around the world may disappear within 30 or 40 years if we go about things the way we have in the past. I had already seen the reef and I had already snorkelled on it and been lucky enough to have holidays up here, but I think it was really talking to the scientists and understanding that the reef was under threat. That's really got my attention much And those who live and breathe the reef are praying a place this beautiful will continue to capture corporate Australia's attention.

If you ask Australians what they love about our environment, they'll talk about the coasts. This is our - we're a coastal people. So I would argue that we're only beginning to get the benefit out of those associations. I think that because coral reefs are iconic around the world, it's just waiting to happen, that benefit to industry by association with this important ecosystem. Our thanks to David Hannan for those remarkable underwater shots. That's Business Sunday for today. For information about the show and our stories, go to our web site: 'Sunday' is next

with the men who want to revolutionise the Australian workplace. I'm Ali Moore. See you next week for our last program of the year. Supertext Captions by the Australian Caption Centre

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Good morning and welcome to Sunday.

I'm Jana Wendt. Australia's unions are gearing up for their biggest clash with the Government in decades. They're angry at the sweeping change John Howard wants to make to industrial relations laws. To the unions, these changes mean the end of life as we know it. Everything workers hold sacred - annual leave loading, penalty rates and paid meal breaks - are under attack, and they claim powerless individuals will be forced into unequal bargaining with bosses who hold all the cards. The Prime Minister claims the changes will make Australian industry more competitive, lift productivity, and return power to the workers by breaking the unions' grip on negotiating awards.