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for more gardening know-how. and I'll catch up with you next week simple and inexpensive Colin shows us how to make some pest and disease remedies from home. using safe, everyday ingredients distinctive and beautiful flower, And Jane meets a collector of a most a welcome burst of winter colour. the hellebore, and finds Gardens are like labs - that may or may not work. they're full of experiments

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* THEME MUSIC Welcome to Message Stick. Hello, I'm Miriam Corowa. then prime minister John Howard Two years ago, children in Aboriginal communities announced emergency action to protect in the Northern Territory. The Intervention, as it became known, by the Rudd Government. has since been extended The policy has divided opinion in Australia's Indigenous communities which represents and serves and the Tangentyere Council in Alice Springs town camps Aboriginal people living of the intervention. has been a vocal critic

from Caritas and Oxfam, Tangentyere, using funding commissioned a research project of the town camp residents. to survey the views employed to film the interviews Director Vincent Lamberti was with town campers provides perspective and his documentary of the Intervention. on the Indigenous experience

what the Government has in mind JOHN HOWARD: 'Essentially, of widespread alcohol restrictions is the introduction Aboriginal land for six months, on Northern Territory of every Indigenous child medical examination under the age of 16. in the Northern Territory In the area of law enforcement,

in policing levels. there will be an immediate increase in the area of welfare We propose a major change going towards alcohol abuse in order to stem the flow of cash that are meant to be used and to ensure that funds are actually used for that purpose.' for children's welfare


it's all right, you know. I think them store cards for their kids too. So people can do their shopping used to do shopping Before, they never you know. when they used to get money, somewhere else. They used to just spend it

When they give the store card out, I think drinking has gone down a bit. Slowing down. Now you see them doing big shopping, you know. and the kids with those store cards, I think that's good. Just cos we live in a town-camp every one of us could do that. doesn't mean site are non-drinkers. A lot of the people on town-camp

I'm being punished It does make me feel like for something I didn't do wrong. Five more minutes! Edgar? to explain to the Government 'I don't know how else

to look after my kids, you know.' that I do know how Bus is going to be here. You going to have your toast? I said it once, I get up early, make sure they have a shower give them breakfast, and then he jumps on the bus.

And then when he is leaving, for my second son, for my youngest. I always used to have to be there

just about. I've worked all over Australia Western Australia, Right through Darwin, Brisbane...

Till the doctor put me off from work. I didn't want to retire. See, I'm on a pension. I reckon the Government shouldn't... ..quarantine all the pensioners.

or what colour you are. No matter who you are We all...human beings. We bleed the same blood. Red.

Firstly, I live on a town-camp who my neighbours are, because I like to know I like to know my son is safe, family is around me. I like to know that my extended

I'm a drinker. Why should I stop my drinking habit

just because of where I live? any government employee's place I don't go into at their house. and tell them they can't drink and tell me? Why should they come to my house I think it's wrong, um...and basically, I still drink. I know that I'm breaking the law. I want to break the law. It's my preference. Why should I stop? I've never had police at my house. for eight years, I've lived on my town-camp

another town-camp for ten years - before that, I lived on with the police. not once been in trouble

that do have problems, you know, There are people but if you look at the statistics, on the town-camps are from visitors, most of the problems that happen it's not from the residents, people are getting penalised and once again, for outside influences.

member of her department to my house I asked Jenny Macklin to send a what pornography is and explain to my 11-year-old son about those things because my son knows nothing in big lettering, now he's asking me. and because it's there So if anything, to me,

it hasn't stopped it. It hasn't been policed.

it's making children ask, If anything, What is pornography?" "What is alcohol? So it's counteracting of those signs. During the early '70s, all started that's how the town-camps because of the... for Aboriginal people ..award wages that was put out on cattle stations. who were working out My dad worked as a stockman

as a housekeeper. and my mother worked couldn't afford to pay the workers, And because the station owners a lot of them drifted into town. they didn't like blackfellas White people, camping too close to them. a bit out of the town So they just moved and just made their little camps were generated from. and that's how the town-camps

Now with this Intervention, a lot of our people, they live in the creeks up in the hills. They're getting away so they don't get arrested by the police. They like their little drink, they've got nowhere to drink, so they go right into the hills where they can. Out of sight, out of mind.


Well, for me, it's good these town-camps are going dry

because a lot of our kids, they walk around at night time, you know, from house to house. And before, when it was open, there has been a lot of cars coming in and out and speeding around, but now it has really quietened down. It's not... It hasn't really changed in the town-camps because a lot of people are still drinking,

they drink more than what they used to drink, they take the big risk of being caught. It's not right cos you've still got people drinking. They maybe somewhere else drinking, but they're still coming back into the town-camps... ..making big racket and whatever. Part of the Intervention is to stop people ..stop people drinking in the town-camps, alcohol restriction, but as you can see in my town-camp, we got all our mob still drinking in the town-camp, so it's not working at all. I've been telling everybody that there's no drinking in my house,

and every time I say that, my kids, niece and nephew said, "I don't want to go drinking anywhere else cos it's dangerous for us to drink somewhere else.

We're not comfortable. So we're comfortable only in our town-camp, where we know our family's close and where bed is close for us to go back and lie down." So these are some of the rubbish they've been throwing over the fence instead of the garbage bin. We aren't seeing a reduction in alcohol

that I would've anticipated. I'm not sure why that is, cos certainly there isn't the money available but it's somehow or other, it seems to me, that they get the money for alcohol. How they're getting that, I'm not sure. So initially, the alcohol levels in the town-camp went down

but really, what happened was, people just went away and drank somewhere else and they'd still come home. And this isn't everyone, this is problem drinkers, would go away, drink somewhere else, and come home with the same problem. So none of the problems moved away. Now, there's just not enough police to resource the... ..making sure, you know, those problem drinkers aren't drinking at home. And people know that. So, you know, families are struggling, trying to keep alcohol away from their homes. I'm a team leader at night patrol, I also live in the town, the Larapinta town-camp, and I actually can see the problems associated with alcohol. We try to explain to people that there is no drinking on town-camps. Because they can't go onto town-camps, they either drink to the excess before actually going back onto the camps, or they tend to find other alternatives. We found that most of the alternatives is that they drink a mouthwash. Before the Intervention, we found that, yes, we knew where drinkers were, we knew what was going on, but now, since the Intervention, you find that people are actually going to locations that aren't...that can't be found.

There's no data. There's no data from beforehand. There's no data now that's available.

Nobody is actually gathering up the information. Police aren't required to provide statistics, they aren't even required to provide receipts for alcohol that they see. So there's no means of tracking what's actually going on.

What we are hearing is a lot of anecdotal information about people changing their drinking habits to avoid detection,

and often this will put them into dangerous situations. Personally, I've actually seen people driving outside of town, up the highway,

and they'll drink in circles on the side of the highway, which, of course, is very dangerous if they start to move around of perhaps even drive back to town so intoxicated. So our mob are all turning from young age to alcohol. There's nothing in this town for them - there's no job, there's some things that they can't handle in life, like everyone else does, all over Australia, white and black. So they all turn to alcohol. They call it their friend. That's when they let their anger,

and that's when they end up fighting. And that's when our mob, all of them fall in jail. Jail is full of our Aboriginal men. We lose people, we lose them young... ..and it's really hard to live by that, losing them young,

and so they turn to grog and it's just a little cycle for us people. So this is Hidden Valley town-camp.

There's 18 town-camps and this is one of them, one of the bigger ones. There's anywhere between 150 and 300 people living here at any time. We have a community centre in the middle and I'm the co-ordinator of the community centre. I have no idea why the Government

is not funding more community centres, they're really successful. They're one of the few things that is more about preventative rather than kind of putting out the bushfires as they go, and they're a really empowering part of the community, and everybody really enjoys using the centre. In fact, they were in the Little Children Are Sacred Report - multi-purpose family resource centres. They recommended that there should be more of them, and there's only two currently that are funded in Alice Springs. I'm Ian Sweeney, I'm the co-ordinator at the Yarrenyty-Arltere Learning Centre in Alice Springs. We're based on Larapinta Valley town-camp. We have a primary school which is a sort of annex of Gillen School. We run adult education programs through Batchelor Institute,

we've been running an art and craft program for about five years. Domestic violence workshops. Well, I don't know if the Intervention has helped the community centre, we haven't received any extra funding or support. We've definitely had a highly increased workload for supporting the Intervention and things like income management and the child healthcare checks, so, I guess, implementing the Intervention on the camp is... you know, we've been used a lot for that. For example, this $585 million for this Intervention, let's be honest, what real Aboriginal programs are being put out there? All it is, is employing more government officials to come in to look at us, put us under a microscope, study us and then go.

There's no new jobs, there's still nothing stopping what's happening to our children, there's nothing being put in place in the communities. To me, it's just a waste of taxpayers' money. I hope there's nothing. Yeah? It's true that some of our women were bashed by their husbands, but now it's more quieter cos the women feel protected by the police more and they're really comfortable when the police are coming round. Because of this Intervention, the police power has been good in one part. But in another part, that's another story - of the police powers. They have used it overboard too much. Too much power against Aboriginal people. We were asleep, me and my two sons and my partner, we sleep in the house, and one o'clock in the morning, coppers went round there, walked through the house, and then went banging on the door where we were sleeping in the room. When I opened the door, they just walked right through, walked into the room and pulled the blanket off my son while he's asleep.

Well, my big boy, he's scared of the police. He don't trust looking at them, or don't want to wave at them when they wave, cos that's how scared he is now cos the coppers just walk through the house and just, you know, pulling the blankets and... I don't think he likes it. Children are supposed to be sacred. That's how all this Intervention started - from Children Are Sacred. Let's go back to the original justification for the Intervention legislation, and that was keeping little children safe.

What this legislation has done has allowed police to engage with people in very intrusive ways, lawfully.

What police are doing is lawful because the legislation declares that this is a special measure under the Race Discrimination Act, so therefore we can't challenge it as being discriminatory. Yeah, my name is Frank Curtis from Alice Springs,

Undoolya person. I've been working with the police here in the Northern Territory and also Western Australia, WA Police - changes every day with our job. You know, you see the happy side, some days you see the sad side, you know. I think the Intervention gathers more workload, yeah... ..that police cannot take on.

We're locking up more, um, people hanging around at Woolies, Coles, more people are going to jail, the crime rates are up, the drinking is up. It's not working

cos they're not talking to the right peoples. Yeah, um...

They need to sit down with the people - not in chairs or behind desks, where they've got their own little protection - they should go out there and sit down on the ground with the people. If they would've consulted them, sat down and talked about this before they went ahead

and passed the legislation, that Government down in Canberra... would've been a different ball game.

We could've been working, you know, together. Well, cos my son ended up getting sick... He only had a problem with his tooth, cos he had a really bad toothache, and I took him to the hospital... ..and they had let him in.

And when we went upstairs to the children's ward... ..this nurse was asking me, "Can you tell him to take his clothes off?" I said, "What for?" "Oh, it's the new rule that we have to check every kid that comes into the wards, we have to check if they've got bruises and stuff." And I told her, "Why do you want to look at MY son for?

He don't have any scars." I don't... I wouldn't hurt my kid like that. It's not fair. I don't see you do that to a white kid. Cos there's lots of white kids in the world too, and they end asking me to tell my son to strip himself. It made me look bad cos, you know,

they look at Aboriginal people as abusive parents,

and that's really cruel. I didn't like that. Eddie, I don't think he liked it too, you know, cos he's eight years old... ..and they're expecting him to strip himself. And he asked me when the nurse walked out, you know,

"Why do I have to show my body for them? You don't hit me." That's why when I ask him if I can take him to hospital, when he gets sick, he says, "No, don't go to hospital. They'll tell me to take my clothes off again." I'm getting tired of being blamed... a no-good mother, no-good sister, no-good auntie... I'm getting tired of that.

I know how to look after my kids, I know how to do shopping, I've been doing that before this Intervention. I put my kids in front first before anything.

When the Intervention came in... ..and with the quarantining of the store cards of our payments for the parents... ..all our kids are just going wild, running around the streets, stealing, things that they used to get before with money, but can't get it, so they steal it.

Instead of helping them, it's just taking their rights away, the Intervention is taking the kids' freedom away. Took it away from them. I'd like to see changes in the future, I'd like to see some changes for our kids. But to make that happen, they have to come and sit down with us, sit down and talk with us. We're not going to bite them. We're just here, come and talk to us, we'll let you know our problem. We've listened to you for long enough - listen to us, what we have to say. You know? I know, every time we say something, we get shut out, blocked out. But if you come and listen to us, we can make the change together. If the Government comes and sits down with us, talk to the people in the community, town-campers, all over the Northern Territory, sit down with us, talk with us,

and together, we can work something out. That story was directed by Vincent Lamberti

and overall presents a critical perspective on the Intervention from the residents of Tangentyere town camps. Of course there are many different views within the Indigenous community on this issue and later this year, Message Stick will be reporting on the perspectives of communities and Indigenous organisations which back the Intervention. If you'd like to leave a comment in our guestbook, visit our website at

See you next week. *

WHIRRING THEME MUSIC In 1915 on the eve of the Gallipoli invasion, a single Australia submarine 'AE2'

embarks on one of the most daring missions in naval history. Steady. Fire! Fire! Now in the dangerous waters of the Turkish sea of Marmara, an archaeological team explores the 'AE2' wreck. They've dived the submarine. They've found it. Ever since 'AE2' was found people have been interested in, can it come up? Should it come up? I want to see it raised. That's a very, very difficult undertaking.

MORSE CODE The actions of the submarine, under her commander Henry Stoker, will play a major role in shaping the ANZAC legend. 80ft, sir. Blow main balance! Blow main balance! ACTION MUSIC

I can't hold her! But after the bungling of the Gallipoli campaign, their heroic achievements were forgotten. Almost 100 years later, the expedition will resurrect the story of the 'AE2' and perhaps even the vessel herself.

In 1998, a team of Turkish divers discovered the 'AE2' lying in 75m of water at the bottom of the sea of Marmara. After nearly 100 years submerged in salt water, 'AE2' is deteriorating. Today, the 'Submarine Institute of Australia'

has begun an expedition to find out if she's well-preserved enough to be raised. You need to look out for the little bright orange, red rust spots, 'cause that's where net damage, or something has caused a break in the concretion. In fact, the recording of the number of little bleed spots gives you an idea of what physical impact

has been happening on the wreck. Just a few shots already are giving a great insight into the condition of the wreck. The primary goal of the expedition is to protect and preserve 'AE2' and opinions are divided on how this best can be achieved. When you look at the proximity there is to the major shipping maine

and the damage that's already been sustained to the vessel you either leave it here to fall apart, or you move it into a safer location where people can see it. Ever since 'AE2' was found people have been interested in, can't it come up? Should it come up? And I can see that as an archaeologist. But as an archaeologist I can also see that that's a very, very difficult undertaking. In some cases it's not the right undertaking

for a particular shipwreck site. That's what we're trying to work out here today - What is the best option for 'AE2'? In the early hours of 25 April 1915 in the waters off north-western Turkey, a massive fleet of allied ships is gathering.