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Lateline Business -

View in ParlView

(generated from captions) the political crisis engulfs

Thailand and paralyses tourism

and business, the Prime

Minister is nowhere to be seen.

He refuses to return to

Bangkok, instead spending his

time in Chiang Mai ain't

eastern provinces. He seems to

have no control of the police

or the army who are refusing to

move these protesters out

despite an emergency decree. He

is resisting pressure, mounting

pressure, to resign, but

tomorrow the constitutional

court might force his hand.

It's due to rule on a

vote-buying case related to

last year's elections t could

mean his People Power party is

dissolved and his Government

forced to step down. Three

Mexican nationals appeared in a

Melbourne court today charged

with attempting to smuggle

nearly 65kg of cocaine into

Australia. Customs and federal

Police say they worked closely

with agencies in the United

States to disrupt a

trans-national drug syndicate.

Police estimate the 65kg of cocaine would've fetched $16

million on the street. We

believe the cocaine originated

in South America and has had to

transit through the United

States en route to Australia.

In October, US Customs

discovered the cocaine inside a

shipping container full of

ceramic pot and statues, the

drugs were concealed inside

large concrete cylinders. US

and Australian authority worked

together to track the cargo's

progress from Los Angeles to

Melbourne.. I've been nothing

but completely impressed wit

the cooperation and their

ability in the invision. On

Friday pral Police arrested 3

Mexican nationals allegeedly

tried to access the container.

The 3 face the Melbourne

Magistrates Court today. They

were remanded in custody to

face court again in April.

Police say Australia is a

lucrative market for

international drug syndicates.

Here a killogram of cocaine

sells for between 120 to $180,000.. as long as

Australians are prepared to pay

such high prices by global

standards for their

recreational drugs we're going

to continue to see global drug

syndicates target Australian

market with importations such

as this. Police say they're now

investigating local links to

the drug syndicate. Emma

O'Sullivan 'Lateline'. At the

end of a challenging year for

political cars there's some

recognition of the best of

their work. An exhibition of

this year's top cartoons has

been created from a short list

of us thats. - thousands. The

political cartoon ing ret

protective 'Behind The Lines'

is in its 11th year. It's the

first held in the reign of

Rudd. When the political clj

clmg changed a year on

The cartoonisthouse lot a

whole cast of caricatures

refined in pen and ink over a

decade. John Howard just ended

up being eyebrows and glasses.

? It took them a while to

depict Kevin Rudd, whose feas

worked out how to draw Kevin is symmetrical. I haven't

Rudd yet. I'm still practising.

I'm focusing on his pouty lip

when he gets cranky. In

satirical circles there are few

targets as beg as Peter gar

the. I gis it is fair to say

I'm a little bit difficult to

miss, the physical features are

reasonably well known. As well

as a range of new faces, there

were challenge ing new issues

for cartoonist s to interpret.

The Aboriginal apology, climate

change and the global financial

crisis. They're not funny, I

think cartoonists have had to

really work hard to find a way

to approach those issues with

pathos as well as finding

humour somehow. I think that's

something they've done very

very well. Much to the chag ren

of their subjects. You look at

the drawings, you might chuckle

a little bit, but they play a

really important and valuable

role in an open democracy. Long

may they create these funny,

pung ent political

continues at the National cartoons. The exhibition

Museum of Australia until

February. Then tours nationally

coming to an electorate near

you. Now to the weather -

showers in Melbourne and

Hobart. A late shower in Perth.

Evening storm for Darwin. Dry

in the other capital cities.

That's all from us. Lateline

Business coming up. If you'd

like to look back at tonight's

interview with Daniel Frankline

or review any transcripts visit

our web site. Now Lateline

Business with ticky Fullerton.

Thanks, Leigh. Tonight, a

clear message for Australia's

exporters. Be very careful

about the level of leverage on

your business, be very careful about the markets you're

working in. Talking the economy

down - the danger of another

big cut in interest rate. The

bigger the move tomorrow, the

more the chance that some

people will say "Things must be

a lot worse than even I

thought". One world, one

financial regulator? Tell them

they're dreaming. Super

regulator that's going to take

over and renationalise the

world, I don't think so. I can

not see a super regulator ever

being developed. First to the

markets - with investors

locking in profits Australian

shares started the week in

negative Territory. The all

ords retreated 1.5%. dragged

down by falls in banking and

mining stocks.

Another big interest rate cut

is likely with more gloomy

economic indicators out today.

The manufacturing sector is in

steep decline while inflation

has fallen so quickly deflation

is a real possibility.

Economists are now predicting

is that thank tomorrow the

Reserve Bank will cut rates by

as much as 1 percentage point.

Philip Lasker reports. Shoppers

doing their bit to help the

economy this Christmas, look

like getting a helping hand

from the Reserve Bank. The

RBA's expected to cut interest

rates by as much as 1

percentage point when it meets

tomorrow. We have a fiscal

stimulus pack.age under way

now. We've got the lagged

effect of the interest rate cut

already in place, so that

argues for 3 quarters. The best

argument for one is the world

economy has deteriorated even

more over the past month and

Australia certainly hasn't

improved. In fact the latest

numbers here show continuing

deterioration in the

manufacturing sector,

accounting for 10% of

Australia's workforce. The

manufacturing index is at a

16-year low after falling for 6

months in a row. All sectors of

manufacturing fell in the month

of October, which is unpress

deped in the 1 years of the

survey - 16 years. It shows

exports are very soft, that new

orders are very weak. Overall a

very grim result. The

manufacturing indegs is blow 33

points, when 50 points is

considered break even. The TD

Security Inflation Gainl

registered its biggest monthly

fall suggesting annual

inflation would tumble from 5 -

3.5% in the 3 months to

December. The fall is mainly

due to a drop in petrol prices.

We are probably looking at a

deflationry quarter in Q 4,

possibly again in Q 1 next

year. That will have

substantial impacts on yearly

inflation. That should see inflation come back within the

Reserve Bank's target ban. Much

more quickly than the Reserve

Bank or Federal Government's

have at the moment. That

according to some observers

liberates the Reserve Bank. The

good news is inflationary

pressures in the industry are

easing wages, that gives a lot

of room for the Reserve Bank to

move tomorrow to reduce

interest rates.

I would say the two building

blocks today were pretty

neutral, we're still look ing

prospectively at slow or no

growth in the September quarter

GDP which number we'll get on

Wednesday. The Reserve Bank is

already looking well past the

September quarter, to what lies

beyond the Christmas

sales.. For more on the local

market news I spoke to George

Kanaan from UBS. George Kanaan

a fairly quiet day on the

markets but another cut in

interest rates on the cards for tomorrow, has the market

reacted already? Not really. In

terms of equity market.

Definitely priced into the bond

market. Going to the equity

markets, other offshore markets

from the weekend were pretty

positive. Why is the local

market dipped? We had a very

strong finish Friday being

month end. I think the market

finished up 4% Friday, I think

what happened with our market

was pretty quiet shall the

market gave up a bit of its

gains from Friday. Rumours

around fort cue Metals group

today, what's going on? That's

right. Fortescue... Up 40%

today before chosing down 20%.

The company eventually came to

the market and made an

announcement saying it was not

aware of any material

announcement that it's not

public, and that's what bought

the shares back down. They

still as I said finished up

20%. Why do you think that

is? There has been speculation

that someone's - the Chinese or

other parties are looking to

take a stake in the company. I

personally think there has been

a bit of short... That stock

has been shorted, I think we've

seen short covering. There are

various roomers. Has the level

of shorting in the market

changed? I think not really. I

think since they've lifted the

bans on non-financial names

we've probably seen most short

ness come back on by

traditionally... Funds.

Traditional hedge funds had

probably been covering their

shorts. Has ed aed added

Has added a bit more liquidy.

The longer it goes probably

the more pes posttive it will

be. Means they're probably

getting through negotiations,

the market's still - there was speculation previously they

wouldn't be able to refinance.

But there could be some light

at the end of the tunnel with

the negotiations in a seemingly

dragging on which means could

be a good sign. What's behind

the big movement in Transfield

Services shares?. Transfield

has been in a trading halt for

a quite a while. It's been

trying to co a raising. It

previously tried to do a

raiseing at north of 1.50. Then

at 1.50, it was unsuccessful.

It succeeded raising money at

$1.25. That's what's behind the

weakness in the share price.

The stock looks apparently

cheap here, it has some good

assets. It's also like some So

many other stocks am our

market, it probably needs to

sell some assets and it's not

really an environment to sell

assets. Any big moves in

particular sectors? Today was

really dragged down by the big

two sectors at banks and the

resource sector, BHP Billiton

and Rio are off today. You also

saw four major banks weaker

today. Thanks for joining

us. Thank you. To the other

major movers - Lleyton Holding

fell more than 7% after work on

a tower in Dubai was suspended

due to poor market conditions.

investors took profits from BHP

Billiton following last week's

desig to abandon the pursuit of

Rio Tinto. Santos sthed shed.

Macquarie Infrastructure Group

gained 1% after selling its

stake in a Sydney Toll road for

$800 million. expectations of

another big interest rate cut

tomorrow has seen the

Australian dollar below US 64

c. On commodity market goal has

dipped 2.5%. In New York crude

oil has dropped below $5 it a

barrel - $52 a barrel after

OPEC decided not to cut

production. As credit continues

to tighten different markets

around the world prevent new

challenges for Australian

exporters from project

completion risk s to terrorism.

The Government owned export

finance and insurance

Corporation, I spoke to their

managing director Angus Amar a

short time ago. Welcome to the

Lateline Business.. thank you.

You provide funds and

insurance for our exporters,

how has the market meltdown and

the constrained credit market

impacked on what you do? P.

Certainly there has been an

increase in demand for EFIQ

support, Australian companies

are experiencing the impacts of

what uf described. There has

been a benefit by the deprec

ation of the Australian dollar

but that's yet to kick in yet

(that's yet to kick in? Yeah,

really in terms of most

companies. They're still

adjusting to the fact the

exchange rate has changed so

quickly and so significantly. In terms of the credit

markets, that's been with us a

little bit longer and certainly

they are feeling the imparkt

from it. Is there a trade cries

crises out there? Doim believe

so. Our research has suged

there is a constraction

traction in trade credit. There

have been some headlines suggesting there is a trades

finance crisis. I think that's

a bit overblown in the

Australian context. We have had

figures out today that the

manufacturing index is at a

16-year low. Are there some

markets, some sectors much

worse than others? Indeed, part

of that index today sais said

that exports were significantly

impacted by that sentiment. So

there are some sector, some

countries feeling the pain more

than others. The epi centre,

the United States, obviously

has quite a few issues to work

through both in it banking

sector and in its real economy.

There was a hope, very distant

hope now of six or 8 months ago

that China might be able to

disingeaj from the impact of

the US, that hasn't

happened. In the last year

according to your annual

report, engineering and

construction were the main

sectors supported by EFIC, 71%

in value terms. Presumably a

lot of that was for China. Are

there concerns about that whole

sector being particularly

crushed? The demand for

engineering services this year

from our prers peckive

continues to grow. EFIC's book,

maybe more in the Middle East

for example than perhaps China.

More in Africa than perhaps

China. But we are in that

sector seeing the advantage of

a lower Aussie dollar. What is

your message for Australian

export centres - exporters? I

think they have to stick to the

fundamentals of their business.

Different companies have taken

risks in different ways. There

are some companies that have

been quite conservative from

the outset. Nand you have

companies - on the other hand

you have companies using higher

leverage.... From a perspective

of Australian corporate health

that's one of the warning

signs, that they're watching -

high degrees of leverage. So if

I were to generalise it would

be, be very careful about the

level of leverage in your business, be very careful about

the market you're working in.

I'm asking about India, India

was supposed to be the great

opportunity beyond choip. Was

it a great opportunity and has

the recent bombing attacks

changed things? It is a great

opportunity. It remains a great

opportunity. It is not a short-term opportunity. It's a

market that has to be developed

over a long period of time..

and the also a market with a

lot of local stories. The

impact from the tragic events

of the past few days is

heighten ing people's

perception of the risk involved

in doing business in India. I

have to say it's not an

isolated incident. There have

been a series of incidents,

terroristence dents over the

past 6 and 12 months that if

you're involved in political

risk you keep track of. But

this is obviously a

particularly extreme outcome.

And in that sense it will

certainly set them back a bit

in terms of attracting inward

investment or people who are

considering a market entry into

India might be reconsidering

that now, they'll have to work

harder.? In those sorts of

circumstance s is it insurance

services you offer rather than

direct funding?. Correct. not

just EFIC but the Lloyds market

and other ensurers offer this

cover, there is quite a

spectrum of insurers that can

provide cover to people. It is

to protect people against some

of the risks we've experienced

in the fast past few days. Do

you then reinsure or is that something the Government, the

taxpayer takes care of? We seek

to reensure as much as of that

as we can. One of our tasks

frankly is to work with the

private market as much as we

can. We try to share that

around as much as we can. Your

chief economist this month

warned of a small risk,

admittedly, a small risk that

qug the panic doesn't subside

and central banks and

treasuries finally use up all

their ammunition, interest rate

cuts and borrowing capacity to

fight the problem that we

have". We get a great

depression. Interest rates

can't go below zero,ing at what

point cus borrowing capacity

run out? Real interest rates

can go below sdemeero. Of

course, but from a practical

point of view. I think Roger

was reflecting on the Japanese

experience. as you observed

it's a small risk that event

waits but it's certainly a risk

and people are... The leverage

is a process, it is not all the

way through that process, not

by any stretch. There are still significant sectors and

economies still quite

leveraged. And it'll take some

time for that to work out.

Another 6 or 12 months. Do you

see the bail-out toiping? How

much more can governments

around the world dish out

money? The response by

Government, by our government,

by many government s in a

concerted fashion is as much

about restoring confidence as

it is about big dollar signs so

if you look at the American

package, it has a big headline

effect. It's a big sum of

money, but relative to the

amount of money that's in most

of those markets, so if you

look at 700 billion, if you

look at that against the size

of the credit derive tisk

markets or some of the market

it's trying to fix it's a small

fraction. It's more about

restoring confidence that it is

about putting the taxpayers'

wallet at risk. EFIC itself has

been quite conservatively

managed. So your capital adequacy is very reasonable.

But for the services that

you're offering, does this now

mean your premiums are going up

and the cost of being doog

business with you is inevitably

going up? We price for risk.

There is no question that if

the risk environment deteriorates we're going to

reflect that in our pricing,

we're not as extreme as some of

the big streams in the

market. And you do have

fund? And we do have funds.

Thanks for tropical cycloning

to - for talking to Lateline

Business. Thank you. OZ

Minerals has won a partial stay

of execution convins its

bankers and market regulators

to give it more time to repay

its debt. It now has until

December 29th to repay the $640

million it owes, that's a month

less than the extption it had

been seeking. Shares will also

remain suspended until the end

of the year. It's the latest in

a series Of setbacks for the

diverse feistified miner. A

margin call forced Owen heg

atty to sell 10 million shares.

Oz minerals was formed by the

merger of Zinifex answer

Oxiana. When the deal was announced last year the two

miners enjoyed a combined

market value of $12 billion.

With its shares suspended at 55

c, OZ Minerals is now worth

$1.7 billion. Futuris shares

slumped 6% today after the agry

business group issued a profit

warping. The company says weak

market conditions willower

earnings. Down from the 80-85

million dollars forecast in

August. Futuris, which plans to

change its name to Elders will

also undertake a major

structural review. It will

narrow its focus on the rural

and forestry businesses and it

wants to take part in

consolidation of the grains

marketing industry. Futuris

expects to raise $350 million

from the sale of non-core

assets including the automotive

supplies business and its stake

in the coun tris largest cattle

rancher Australian agriculture

Co. The chances of a regulator

emerging from the global

financial crisis remain slim. The Australian Prudential

Regulatory Authority and ASIC

praised the robust ness of the

system here. Their comments

were made at today's annual

company secretaries conference.

While the serious business of

the global financial crisis

grinds on organisers of today's conference were happy to

provide some relief from the

stress. It was hard for the

head of the banking regulator

to miss an opportunity to

lighten the mood when asked

about the failure of HIH

prompting tougher

regulations. Let me give you a

straight anticipate to that -

yes. And no. inchts In a rare

appearance together the heads

of Australia's financial

regulators praised the strength

of the country's regulatory

framework. Looking around the

globe over the past last 15

months is there a regulatory

model that has performed

better? I hadn't seep one. I am

not seeing any regulatory model

thats has performed better. It's very interesting

that all of these regulators

want to understand the twin

peaks model, they want to talk

about it and how it works. It

is perceived to be desirable

certainly in the US.le However

the stock market supervisor was

quick to point out the up regulated space of stock

lending was a problem area:

You've got a potential in certain circumstances for

things to fall between the

cracks, I think in terms of as

we move forward, the things

that might exist in relation to

off-market trans actions or

over the couper product. Is where there will be a much

higher level of scrutiny.

Whether we as ASX get involved

in that space or whether a six

- ASIC gets more

involved. We're concerned about

the obvious knee jerk reaction

to put in more regulation over

the top of what we already

have. Our first port of call is

to look at the regulation

you've got in place, and make

sure it operates effectively.?

Both regulators were quick to

Des miss calls for one global

body to oversee all financial

regulation. Recalling Super

regulator that is going to take

over and we nationalise the

world? No, I dom think so. Not

in my lifetime let alone my

term at ASIC. I can not see a

super regulator ever being

developed. However APRA

chairman Dr John Laker says

meetings to increase

international cooperation

between regulators has begun..

supervisor ry colleges which

draw together the supervisors

of systemic and important

institutions globally and make

sure we are always on the same

page. While it's back to

business for the regulators and

the stock market supervisor,

the nation's company

secretaries have two more days

to discuss the curve balls the

financial crisis is serving up.

Federal Government has been

accused of not doing enough to

tackle one of the biggest

barriers to increasing the

efficiency of Australia's

health system. At the weekend,

Commonwealth heads of

Government meeting in Canberra,

state and territory leaders

were pleased to receive an

extra $9 billion in federal

funding for health programs,

only $200 million has been

allocated towards developing an

Internet based system of

patient record keeping.. the

individual records need to

follow the patient. We need to

invest in electronic health

records, they need to be

available where the patient is,

we need an infrastructure, a

secure and authencated

infrastructure enabling each of

those health care

organisations, hospitals right

across Australia, primary care

facilities and so on to be

accessed and to be able to use

their health record. Most

health records are still paper

based putting the health sector

well behind other industries in

the' adoption of computer and

Internet technology. Westpac's

completed its $15 billion

takeover of the St George bank.

St George is now a subsidiary

of Westpac and had its name

removed from the ASX board. In

accordance with a scheme from

the merger all St George shares

have been transferred to Westpac. Westpac chief

executive Gail Kelly now faces

the challenge of cut ing

millions of dollars from the

group. A look at tomorrow's

business diary -

We're due 2 pieces of

economic data, the bleangs of

trade for September, along with

the latest retail sales

figures. Grocery wholesaler

Metcash releases its interim

profit N a few hours' time Ben

Bernanke is due to deliver a

speech on the outlook of the

American economy. A look at

what's happen ing and making

news in the business sections

of tomorrow's newspapers.

That's all for tonight. As I

loob you, the Dow futures are

down 158 points. In London the

FT 100 index has shed over

2%. If you wan to review any

part of tonight's program visit

our web site.

We'd love to get your

feedback. Our email address -


Closed Captions by CSI 25 years ago, a man came into St Vincent's Hospital, Sydney, sick. He was from New York - a gardener, young and fit, with a crowded sexual history, and he was gay. The doctors made their diagnosis, the first in Australia.

This man had AIDS.

No-one knew what caused it, or how it might be spread. Later, when he seemed well, he was simply discharged. And that was the last the doctors saw of him. 'WE CAN GET TOGETHER' BY ICEHOUSE The streets he vanished into couldn't have been more fertile grounds for the virus he was carrying. St Vincent's Hospital sat at the centre of where the plague of AIDS would take its worst toll. But there's something else about these streets. They were one of the first places in the world AIDS met its match in the very deviants and misfits it threatened to wipe out - junkies, poofters and whores. In Sydney, the lepers took over the AIDS colony and aimed all their bad habits and wild instincts straight back at the virus. Together they broke the law, offended everyone, and saved tens of thousands of lives. They have a very different story of a plague to tell.

How luck, guts and sheer bloody pragmatism might well yet save the world from AIDS. SONG: # We can get together # We can get together... # The amount of sex going on pre-AIDS in Sydney was ridiculous. It was just an abomination. There were bars around town where the barmen were 15.

They weren't licensed. They were open until 5 o'clock in the morning

when everywhere else was closed at 2:00. We ran into a nest of homosexuals one Saturday morning, and they were all dressed up. They'd been on the booze for about two weeks. No-one knew it yet

but the AIDS virus was already in the bars and clubs of gay ghetto Darlinghurst. And if this was Sodom, Gomorrah was right next door. Of all the brothels lighting up Kings Cross, the biggest and brassiest was the Nevada. The Nevada? Oh. The Nevada, you didn't really need to look for the ads in the paper, all you had to do was go down to the Cross and walk up Bayswater Road to that magnificent old Victorian building and look up and there the women were calling down to their clients. I did my apprenticeship on the streets in Liverpool Street. And that was the time when we were virtually shoulder to shoulder, you know. I had the pleasure of attending the inaugural meeting

of the Australian Prostitutes Collective. And I think I signed a book that's made me a member, even though no-one checked my references. The Taylor Square Clinic was a thriving old-fashioned clap clinic for its thoroughly modern clientele. Later, it would have one of the biggest AIDS caseloads in the country. I thought at the time if I go into venereology, that's the party end of medicine. People get gonorrhoea and syphilis, you treat them, make them better and then they go out and catch it again. But at least they're having fun catching the diseases they're afflicted with. Waiting rooms were a very good place to cruise and meet new friends. The patients were good fun. We were the same age as them. Going out, socialising was always good fun, everyone knew you. It was a pretty happy time. HARD ROCK MUSIC Happy times, chemically induced, preoccupied another mob moving through these streets. The most despised people in Sydney. They hated us. They'd come home from work and find their house burgled. And that's the idea everybody had about a drug user. The drugs of choice were heroin and speed delivered where the AIDS virus will easily pass, through the point of a needle. All these drug users running around,

because back then it seemed there was an epidemic of drug users in some location like Kings Cross,

and we were sort of like a tourist spectacle, almost. I'm not sure that the whole of Australia, or even the whole of Sydney, changed so dramatically at that same time but it felt for us like it did. It didn't.

Why don't you call yourself a straight-out poofter and pervert?

And why are perverts allowed to roam the streets and rape and murder and kill little babies like you buggers do? I'm quite happy to call myself a poofter. I don't regard the term as offensive. I dislike the term 'pervert' intensely. Do you consider yourself as a normal member of society? None of them were. Running a brothel or shooting up drugs were serious crimes. And as late as the '80s so was gay sex, maximum penalty, 14 years - double the sentence for rape. Gays pushed back. They would not change their behaviour. They would change the law.

We certainly were never going to be quiet and we were never going to go away. We were politically savvy and we were used to battles. This is the world that they New York gardener had melted back into where nothing was going to stop the party. DANCE MUSIC It's a bit like the day you give up smoking. You never forget it. The doctors at Taylor Square were sitting down in the tea room

and the first little report in the Centre for Disease Control magazine had just been published. And I remember we looked at it and said, "That looks a bit grim." The date was March 12, the day after the first Hawke government was sworn in. And there's a ritual whereby all the public servants come across to Parliament House to one of the committee rooms there, about 20 of the senior health public servants,

and they had two great fat volumes

of all the issues I would have to attend to as health minister. And some time in the afternoon, there was this thing called GRIDS, gay-related immune-deficiency. And I said, "Could you explain this to me?" Neal Blewett had a very good intellectual understanding of policy, but as a retail politician, I think he was quite removed from the nuts and bolts of getting things done politically in Australia. They often said I was too scholarly and academic a figure. Bill brought to my office a streetwise capacity. Openly gay, Bill Bowtell also brought an insider's knowledge of life in Darlinghurst. Well, my own sexual life which became an object of considerable discussion is perhaps in some ways odd. I'd had a couple of homosexual experiences when I was at university. I married in my late 20s. It wasn't as though I was in the closet, popping out, and having unacknowledged affairs behind my wife's back. Nothing like this occurred. So for 30 years, I had had no contact with this world really whatsoever. On the day of that first ministerial briefing, that was about to change. The New York gardener had just been diagnosed at St Vincent's. And I always remember the then Chief Commonwealth Medical Officer coming over and when we asked about this new problem, well, he said, "Well, Minister,

"whatever else it is you can be sure that it's not a virus." Of course it's a virus. The problem with HIV is that where it chooses to deposit itself is right in the heart of your immune system. So it's both an attacker but it demolishes all the soldiers that you recruit to try and overcome the infection so you couldn't get a more efficient killer. Within days to weeks of being infected, the virus is in every organ of your body. And the disturbance is largely in the gut, but it's in your brain and your liver and everywhere else. And add to that, the 10-year average incubation period so anyone who's infected with it has just been donated a 10-year opportunity to infect other people. Well, at the time Neal Blewett was being briefed, we knew none of these things. We didn't know it was a virus. We didn't know how it was transmitted. We didn't know its natural history and we didn't know any treatments. Other people approached the new mystery illness from a different angle. When the doctors called it 'the gay plague', then people said to me, "Do you think God has sent the disease? "Is it actually punishment?" The Bible is fairly explicit about homosexuality. Leviticus chapter 18, verse 22. "Though shall not lie with mankind as with womankind. "It is abomination." Abomination is a very strong word. It means something God hates. Fred Nile was not a joke. One of the great problems in the United States had been in the 1960s when these people started to first emerge, they had been treated as a joke. There would be some there who were homosexuals