Note: Where available, the PDF/Word icon below is provided to view the complete and fully formatted document
Disclaimer: The Parliamentary Library does not warrant the accuracy of closed captions. These are derived automatically from the broadcaster's signal.
The Business -

View in ParlView

(generated from captions) pers abandoned by church going

Americans living in the heart

of the Bible belt. These people

are not the ones that created

the problem. Again, we say

people are here because people are here because

somebody is offering them jobs.

They are also here because they

have to leave where they were

because they didn't have food.

Even animals go from places and

migrate to go where food is. It

is about survival It is about

survival. And not only for the

Hispanic community. What

proportion of your workforce

would you say is undocumented?

It would be 90%, just about

every farm everywhere in every

State is in the same situation. With new

requirements forcing farmers to

check the immigration status of

their employees, workers have

vanished overnight. Farmers

like Chad Smith are cutting

back, some sitting the year out

entirely for fear they won't be

the manpower to harvest a

proper crop this year. Most

Americans won't fill the jobs

these people have because

they're not willing or able to

do it. A lot of people can

make as much sitting home

getting the unemployment

cheque, you know, $250, $300

than coming out to work. Farmers gathering for

lunch at the local diner are

worried. Putting us out of

business, plain and simple. With the Hispanic workforce embedded in the workforce embedded in the

economy, there are predictions

the law could cost Alabama as

much as $10 billion in lost

economic growth if people

flee. Repeal HB.

(APPLAUSE). Businesses have

joined forces with civil rights

groups and the Hispanic

community to demand the law be

thrown out. I was able to

convince my workers, which is

only three, to only three, to stay and I'd

take care of them. I even said

you can live in my house and we

won't tell anybody. I have a

problem with this. My husband

is an illegal immigrant mere. We have three children

together. I'm terrified of him

being deported. I'm here to try

to convince the Senators, the

representatives in this

building that this bill is wrong. The fact is wrong. The fact is what we're

doing right now by allowing

this flood of illegal

immigrants to come in our

country, that's inhumane and it

is inhumane to our existing

poor that are here. It puts

our poor at an unfair

competitive disadvantage to

compete for these jobs. The

States say they're stepping in

the action of overarching

level fighting it immigration in the national

level fighting it out locally.

In an election year the debate

is rebounding on to the

national stage as Republicans

vie with Barack Obama for the

important Latino vote. You've

been here 25 years and you've

God three kids and grandkids

you belong to a local church,

don't think we're going to

separate you from your family

uproot you forcefully and kick

you out. The likely Republican nominee is take Republican nominee is take ago

haired line. Amnesty is a

magnet. When we have had in

the past programs that have

said people who come here

illegally are going to stay

forest of their life that's

only to encourage people to

come here illegally. The

Republican Party has hated

immigrants before. The Obamas

administration is suing States

pursuing tough immigration laws

but the President failed to

which would have pass the so-called dream act

which would have provided a

path to citizenship for young

Hispanics and deportation have

shot up under Barack Obama. Are

in a sense in a relationship

with the country you consider

your own. You love a country

that is not only actively but

subtly telling you we to not

love you we do not want you.

You're really keen to

You're really keen to be wary

what to next in the next four

years on who are gets erected .

In a nation of immigrants

living in limbo. Jane Cowan, Lateline. A possible shower for

Brisbane and Canberra, a few

showers and the chance of a

storm in Sydney, partly cloudy

in Melbourne and co Hobart,

mostly sunny in Adelaide and

Perth of the possible early Perth of the possible early

storm for Darwin. That is all

from us. If you'd like to back

at tonight's interview with

David Johnston or review any of

the Lateline stories or

transcripts visit our website

and follow us on Twitter and

coming up with Ticky Fullerton. FaceBook. The Business is

I'll see you gone tomorrow.

Captions by CSI Until then, goodnight. Closed


making a case for

manufacturing. Captains of

industry have a planment they

want guaranteed cheap natural

gas to fuel the sector's future. Australia can have future. Australia can have its

cake and eat it too. We can have a

have a wonderful LNG industry.

We can have a developing

manufacturing industry off the

back of cheap gas. I'm Ticky We The Business. The big

manufacturers are lobbying

Canberra over cheapen gee and

they say the pollies are

listening of as the axe falls

on yet more manufacturing jobs,

industry bosses unveil a master

plan for action. Is this part

of the cure for ailing

industry? It's high-tech, high Analyst spec, additive manufacturing.

Analyst key business, a warning

to the big banks on the perils

of profits from cost cutting. First a quick look at

those markets. Banks and

consumer stocks led the way.

The All Ordinaries closed on a

high for the year up nearly 1%

who is who of Australian

manufacturing staged a power

meeting in Sydney today. Industry executives have put a

bold master plan for recovery

on the negotiating table. It includes asking Canberra to

back a proposal for cheap natural gas for manufacturing.

Here's Simon Palan. It is the

manufacturing latest casualty of the ailing

manufacturing sector. Soap

maker Cussons has closed its

Melbourne plant, costing 9 92

jobs. As Australia's mining

sector continues to boom,

manufacturing job losses have

been coming thick and fast. Many of the manufacturing

sector are doing it tough.

That's why Government has been

talking about the patchwork

economy. Now Australia's

biggest manufacturers have

pitched a master plan to

being resurrect the sector, which is

being squeezed by the high

Australian dollar and cheap

Asian imports. Firstly, they

want better implementation of

anti-dumping laws. I don't

think most people in Australia

really understand the impact of

what cheap dumped imports are

doing to this economy. They say

overly bureaucratic government

relegation is having a similar

effect. It's a bit like effect.

there's a forest within an

orienteering program for

bureaucrats and they kind of get get lost because they haven't

got the instructions. They're

also demanding changes to

workplace laws. Job security

can only be achieved through

flexibility and improvements in

productivity. And manufacturers

have also suggested that a

portion of Australia's natural

gas be reserved exclusively for

local manufacturers to use at

well below world prices. This

is a country strategy that is begging to be put in

place. Access to domestic

sources of energy by Australian

manufacturers is made difficult

by policy confusion. Manufacturing's

share of economic output in

Australia has fallen from 14%

to 8.6% in the last 20 years.

The sector says it needs to

rebuild for when the resources

rebuild for when the resources boom ends. The Communications

Minister says the latest claims

of misconduct against News

Corporation should be reported

to the police. 'The Financial Review' newspaper claims News Corporation promoted what it

calls a wave of high-tech

piracy which damaged pay TV

rivals in the UK, United States

Italy and Australia. News Corporation's Corporation's Australian arm

News Limited has rejected claims

claims saying the story is full

of factual inaccuracies. News

limit I had says it joined

forces with Foxtel in spending

considerable resources fighting

piracy in Australia. Computer

giant Apple is offering a money

back guarantee to customers as

it battles the consumer

watchdog over its new IPad.

The ACCC has taken court action to

to try and stop Apple promoting its IPad

its IPad 3 as being able to

connect to Australia's 4G

network currently only offered

by Telstra. Lawyers for Apple

says it is never been stated

that the new product is

compatible with Telstra's

upgraded network. But Apple

has made a voluntary

undertaking to inform its

customers that the IPad 3 isn't customers that

4 got compatible. The matter

will go to trial in May. The Reserve

Reserve Bank has warned Australia's

Australia's lenders against

irresponsible behaviour as they

chase profits in a difficult

market. Also issuing warnings

was America's central bank

chief in an extraordinary TV interview Ben Bernanke

continued hosing down

expectations of a strong US

recovery. Here's Phillip Lasker. Australia truly is the

lucky country. Talk of

financial stability doesn't ring alarm bells here, ring alarm bells here, but the

banks are busy attempting to

boost profitability in the

current low growth world. You could

could very well see future

housing credit growth

approaching zero. The RBA is warning the banks against

resorting to increasingly

desperate measures for new

customers. The banks, I think,

have done a reasonable job thus

far of focusing on profitability, overchasing growth, but that's probably with the historical with the historical view that

they expect things to rebound. We're constructing a case where

we think growth willing lower

for longer. Like three to five

years. In its latest stability

review, the RBA says that it

would be unhelpful if the banks

were to chase unrealistic

profit expectations by taking

on more risk. The RBA also

warned against cost cutting in

the wrong places. It was okay

to sack the deal makers, but

not the people who assess risk

and check loans. Where I think

they're looking at now is

increase that fish sigh increase that fish sigh and

straight through process of

that application process as

oppose to cut in risk areas or

reporting areas. Then there are

the risk from off shores. Ben

Bernanke took the extraordinary

step of appearing in a TV

interview. You once used the

graze green shoo.s are they

stalks? Are they viable trees?

I think they're still shoots.

We're seeing again some good

indicators. There hasn't been

a double-dip or a second

recession. Right now I think recession. Right now I think

the odd of it are pretty low,

but with forecasting you just

never say never. I think we but

should be thankful he didn't

say the green shoots were onion

weed and they've perished. He weed and they've perished. He

was again trying to massage those expectations. If you

start to say they're stalks

people start to say that means you've

you've got a fully fledged

recovery on your hands. It

was an attempt to possibly

massage the Federal Reserve

Chairman's image as well. I'm

very proud of my nerdom. The

world needs more nerds. Nerds,

you know, create jobs. This

nerd will need to create nerd will need to create more

jobs than many people in

history. The local Bourse was

on a three-month high today ignoring weak leads from Wall

Street and the region. I spoke

to Martin Lakos from Macquarie

Private Wealth earlier. Martin

Lakos, the All Ordinaries Index

above 4400. The ASX 200 above

4300. We're off and running

are we? It looks like it is a

little closer to a little closer to a decisive

mood. It is one day we've

broken above 4300 as decisively

as the market has been

expecting. The last time we

saw these levels was back in

October of last year. I think

we need a couple more days like

this to really give the market

some confidence that we've found

found a new level. There's absolutely

absolutely no doubt, though,

the market continues to under

perform and we largely know

what that's all about, lack of earnings growth across the earnings growth across the

board market. You think the

market is undervalued? We do.

We put out a fair value

estimate on a 12-month basis for this time year we expect

the market to be at 4,5 93 to

be exact. On the ASX 200

there's obviously a number of

calculations that go into that

in terms of earnings and

dividends. There's about a 7% there's

capital gain factored in and

about a 5% dividend yield.

Even so, with that possible

gain in 12 months time it does

show us up to be vundalled,

under performing the US. August

August last year the lows of

the market through the European

debt crisis, the Dow Jones is

now rallied 22% since the 8

August. We're up 9%. It gives

the extent of that under-performance. Lastly, I

could touch on it is interesting to watch interesting to watch the US market continue to rise whereas

it rises you would expect risk it rises

to be growing yet the rain risk

indicator is at 15 times. That

has been in a range of 13.5 to

48 through the last 12 months.

15 times markets around all

that concerned on risk at the

moment . Very strange. Anything

Anything for the sharemarket

investor to take note of in the

Reserve Bank's financial stability report? Nothing stability report? Nothing in

particular would really get us

overly worried. Lots of

commentary about the concerns

on Europe last year and those concerns are easing quite

clearly. On the domestic front, they certainly have

noted we're seeing a softness

in manufacturing retail.

There's not a lot of news there

for the market in that respect.

I certainly don't think it is

dear rating. Which is slightly

better news. Certainly in

terms of underperforming loans

in the banking system, although

we're at 10-year low in terms

of those underperforming loans,

those loans are only 0.6 of a

percent of total loan books

across the banks. That was in

2003 at about point 2%. It is

a fairly small amount of loans

that are in 90 day arrears. Bank of Queensland has been

been placed on review for

possible downgrade by Moody's.

How has that impacted the share price? Not

price? Not at all. Quite the

reverse, Ticky. Bank of

Queensland rallied 8% today.

It may well be that the market

has taken into account the

issue in regards to how

Queensland is going, it is

non-mining Queensland, so

clearly the banks got exposure

to south east Queensland and

those property values. It is a

large proportion of that $328

million impairment write off. The

The capitalise? raise

something a deep discount. And

keep T one capital intact. The something

market is focusing on that as market

opposed to what the ratings

agencies are saying. Thank you again

again for talking to The

Business. Always a pleasure,

Ticky, thanks. To the other

major movers on the local

sharemarket, the ASX was on the

rise announcing after the

closed of the market Rick holiday Smith holiday Smith will take over

from David Gonski as chairman.

Woolworths was up more than 1%

as the sector generally rose.

Telstra shares moved up on the

telco's plans to cut its workplace agreement. The

company won a lucrative company won a lucrative company

to supply Fortescue. The

dollar fell on weak data from

China. In commodities, oil has

followed consumer followed consumer confidence

down. Gold fell back

slightly. Back to our top

story now on manufacturing and

the call to action on cheap

gas, regulation anti-dumping

and IR. We have done a fair bit

bit on IR this year but to discuss

discuss the other issues I

caught up with two of the industry captains,

Manufacturing Australia chair Manufacturing

Dick Warburton and Incitec

Pivot CEO James Fazzino. Dick Warburton, James Fazzino

welcome to the program. Pleasure. Dick we've

had a mammoth session this

morning, eight captains of

industry. The most interesting policy initiative from your

point of view has been on gas

and a call for gas in

Australia, some of it, to be

reserved domestically and at cheaper

cheaper prices for manufacturing. I'd like to

believe it is not radical. I

like it would be around for a

long time. This is the first

occasion we've had to really

present this in a focused

fashion to the business

community, Government

community, and so that's what

was such an issue today. James

got much more on that

particular issue. So I'll pass long

it across to him. Our value

propositions fairly simple. If

you take gas and export it as

LNG, you client he's its value

by around 3 times. If you take

that same molecule of gas and

produce, for example, an

explosive molden out of it, you

increase its value by 20 times.

What our value proposition is

that Australia can have its

cake and eat it too. We can

have a wonderful LNG industry,

we can have a developing

manufacturing industry off the

back of cheap gas and we can

actually keep some of that gas actually keep some of that gas in country to produce clean

electricity. If we do that

everyone wins. The local

communities win by the value

that we create in manufacturing

and our rule of thumb is $4

outside the factory gate for

every $1 in the factory gate.

Government wins because it gets

to tax that 20 times value add

rather than three times and of

course the companies win course the companies win through dividends from those

value adding activities. James,

to what extent has your

company, Incitec Pivot, and

indeed other members been

impacted by higher energy company, Incitec

prices? It is an impact that's

coming into the future because

LNG prices or gas prices on the

east coast of Australia will

quickly go to LNG parity around quickly go to LNG parity around

about 2015-16. That has a

significant impact pact on all

of manufacturing. The base of manufacturing is competitively

priced energy. It impacts all

of our members in Manufacturing

Australia. Dick Warburton, I

can't imagine the gas industry is is going to take this lying

down. You met with ministers from the Government today.

What was their reaction to such

a proposal about gas? Yes, we a proposal about gas? Yes, we

did. We have hi a very good

meeting with three Government

ministers this morning and

their reaction was almost a

case of "gosh, we didn't quite

realise this. We quite quite

understand it and we're very

pleased to discuss this but." The The Government was The Government was actually

open to this? They've period

to be open to it. The proof of

the pudding will be whether

they take it and implement some

of these ideas. The other

thing you were driving James

Fazzino, what's going on in the US at the US at the moment. That's right.

The idea isn't new. President

Obama has recognised that the

US has the same natural

resource endowment as Australia

in terms of gas, but the

difference is the Obama

Administration policy is to

keep that onshore for value

adding. It is forecast that

the US will generate 600,000

new jobs in turning that gas

into value added chemicals and

opportunity that's available other products. That's the

for Australia. Let me move to

the second of your four

pillars, regulation. Dick, you

had Matt Sexton from ream deliver startling comments

about his business. He has the

regulatory bodies he situation where he's got 40

regulatory bodies he has to

deal with. As he said, that's

far more than the number of companies in

companies in the industry.

These 40 regulatory bodies take

up up time, commitment, but also

can be contradictory. He's got some regulations where one

State says you need to do this

particular function to be able

other to sell your product and the

other State saying you can't

tell it at all because it is

quite different. More broadly,

I'm looking at all these

different regulations, different regulations, OH and

S, equal opportunity,

education, VAT. If you combine

that with industrial relations

and energy, it is the

cumulative effect. Yes, you're

absolutely right. When you

look at any of these

regulations in isolation, they

actually make sense, but it is

the cumulative impact of those that actually means that the

cost of doing business in

Australia is far higher than

our competitors offshore. Have you done

you done crunched any numbers

about the cumulative impact?

We produce ammonia under the

Gateway Bridge in Brisbane and

that's a highly xetty plant.

If we look at what happened to

its energy costs reaply there's

been a new regulation

establishing a gas market in

Brisbane, that's added another $1.5 million to the cost base

of that plant. The carbon tax

will initially add $2 to $2

million increasing every year.

It means it will be very tough

to do business in

Australia. Dick, you also

talked today about the

anti-dumping issue. I know

Phil Jobe at cap pral was Australia. Dick, particularly passionate about

this today. We're asking for a

pointing fair marketplace. As Phil was

pointing out, there's been

quite a lot done recently by

the Government, by unions,

working with manufacturing,

leading towards a better

anti-dumping regime,

recognising there are 90

anti-dumping countries around

the world. We've struck a

roadblock roadblock in some of the areas

of the bureaucracy and the

Customs because of the

priorities they've got. We

need very definitely some direction to Customs as

direction to Customs as to what

they can do to unblock those

roadblocks. One of your big

concerns was China and in

particular the acceptance from

the Australian point of view of

China as a market economy and

you've got issues with things

like, you know, credibility of

financial accounts and dumped

goods within products and all

these sorts of things. It is actually about actually about training presumably Customs people, industry working together with

government? Exactly, training

them, utilising our own experts but

but also their experts to

understand this issue. One for

both of you really finally. I was at a function last night

when I was speaking to somebody in manufacturing and they

brought up the issue of

high-tech and their eyes Wen to

the ceiling and they said

high-tech, high B S. There's a

feeling out there that that's

the sort of mantra that you

have to talk about when in fact

it is not all high-tech in

manufacturing at all. We do

other things, medium tech,

mining services, all sorts of

things really well and that's selling manufacturing short.

What do you think, dick? Yes.

There's this perception

high-tech means you have to be

a Google or Apple or vafd in

that sort of area of the

manufacturing is hiding its

light under the bush Chelsea.

We're commodity based product.

Having said that, everyone of

these companies has an

innovation group or R&D group,

BlueScope for example have 40

PhDs working on new techniques,

new areas to become much more

competitive. I'm sure James

company has the same thing. competitive.

If I took you to any of our

control rooms in the company, you

you would see actually what we

do in manufacturing in our

business is high-tech. Our rap

iters are highly squild

operating plants that have a

replacement value of several

billion dollars. In terms of the innovation in pour

business, we produce

world-class, world leadinge

mull shuns that have been developed in Australia in the

Hunter Valley. We have an amazing opportunity in amazing opportunity in this

country to add jobs and create

value for our kids by

recognising that we have a

wonderful endowment in terms of

our natural resource base. As

a group in terms of Manufacturing Australia and as

a Government, our task is to go

out and grab that and create

the type of value that I think

we can so that everyone winds.

We always had We always had the low-cost

manufacturing overseas. That's

always been there. The high

dollar has hit us pretty hard

over the last two or three

years. It is something we have

to live with. It is the

advantages that we have that

we've got to take better

advantage of, collectively,

with the help of Government,

with the help of the manufacturers themselves with

the help of unions, with the

help of employees. That's

where we've got to work on the

advantages we've got and do better

better that way. We can be better that way. We can be

successful doing that. I'm

quite convinced of that. Dick Warburton, and James Fazzino

you've given me a lot to

explore over the next few

weeks, thank you very much for

joining us. Thank you Ticky. While there are hard

times for entire industries, a

new wave of innovation is

sweeping across the globe.

Additive manufacturing is the

high-tech field exciting

scientist and manufacturers and

no B S here I can assure you.

Tell us more here's Neal

Woolrich. This may not seem like a typical manufacturing

plant. There's no noisy equipment

equipment and very few workers but

but it could well be the

facility of the future. It

uses a process called additive

manufacturing where parts and

mould are built from the ground

up using raw materials and some

very sophisticated machinery. Additive manufacturing is just

that, it is about adding that, it is about adding layers

of material to build

of material to build up a part

to its finished state. What we

do here we have printing

machines and technologies that make additive manufacturing

components in plastics and also

metal materials. Typically for

engineering clients. Additive

manufacturing has only been

around for about 20 years. It

involves taking a raw material

like powder or liquid resin

arcs ply heat through a Lizzer

arcs ply heat through a Lizzer

be creating an item layer by

layer. It was only used for

prototypes or moulds N at decade

decade it's been used to create finished products as

well. There's selective laser

melting, electron beam elt

inning, 3D printing, there's

various processes that involve temperature, vacuums, involve

poud ders, lasers to produce an

end product. The industry is moving

moving very fast into dental

industry. Certainly medical

devices. There are a lot of

devices that we do make for the

medical industry. It is revolutionising the way

manufacturing is done. Travis

Hardy is the Australian sales

manager for 3D Printing

Solutions a listed US company:

he says a machine like this can

make items like architectural make items like architectural models or automotive components

in intercrit detail and in

quick time. You have a pattern maker

maker or someone on the bench making

making these by hand and that

could take up to two weeks. could take up to two weeks. In

24 hours we have a model that

someone can use to present to

their customer or client. At the moment additive

manufacturing is only a small part of the global

manufacturing industry. In

part because of its expensive

price tag. 3D price tag. 3D systems machine

range in price from $1300 to $1

million. Bruce Grey from the

Cooperative Research Centre

says cost is coming down. The

problem we suffer from in

Australia is lack of scale. In

most of our markets weir we've

got a small population and remote from the major

manufacturing markets in the

northern hemisphere. These

processes give local

manufacturers a big opportunity manufacturers a big opportunity

to start to make components more economically in short

runs. Where this technology

comes into its own is where you

can make very complex parts

that cannot be made any other

way The Advanced Manufacturing

cooperative research centre is

hoping to combine manufacturing

with leading edge he medical

research facilities. It

remains to be seen whether that

can provide a lasting cure for

a manufacturing industry on its

sick bed. To that that additive manufacturing needs to

be adopted on a much bigger

scale, something that so far

has proved illusive. Before we

go a look at what's making

business news in overseas

newspapers. 'The Wall Street

Journal' says weeks after

agreeing to go an agonising

bailout deal with Europe,

Greece is splintering politically ahead politically ahead of national elections, raising the risk

that it won't be able to

economic sacrifices still

needed to keep it in the euro.

Britain's Dellacqua 'Daily

Telegraph' says the Governor of the Bank of

the Bank of England has

Australia couped pensioners and

pension funds of exaggerating

how much money they're losing

because of quantitative easing.

The UK A's money printing

exercise to keep interest rates

low and to stimulate the low

economy. That's The Business.

You can watch the though Monday

to Thursday at 8.30 each night

on ABC News 24 as well as after on ABC News 24 as well as after

Lateline on ABC 16789 I'm Ticky

Fullerton. Thank you for

watching. Goodnight. Closed watching. Captions by CSI Closed

? Theme music

I've always been fascinated by aliens, in the sky and on the telly, and I'm not the only one. 80% of Australians think that aliens exist somewhere out there. Some think they're already amongst us, and many people believe that they first arrived here in Roswell, New Mexico. In 1947, something mysterious crashed here. Was it an alien spacecraft, or was it a high-level conspiracy by the US Government to boost tourism in Roswell? I'm a Martian and I'm a Mexican. Here at the Roswell UFO Festival, there are a lot of colourful characters who believe in extraterrestrial visitors. But for a more serious discussion, I spoke to a guy in a suit. I went to Jupiter and I was briefed on Jupiter, and I met a number of aliens from different civilisations that I consider friends, and I wasn't abducted - I went willingly. And what we've been told about our universe is the farthest thing from the truth. We have an intergalactic space command, and that Earth is a prison planet. How do you know all this? Because I saw it personally, and I met with the commanders and the people. And I was briefed on the history on the future of this planet, I was briefed and, people of Earth, you're about to see some changes

and you're not gonna like 'em. What happened when you were taken away? A beautiful lady... And a lot of people say, 'Well, it's always a beautiful woman,' and I say, 'That's alright with me.' It's happened to me. 'It's better than a monster.' How do I know that the beautiful ladies who come up to me aren't aliens? You don't, because a lot of 'em are. That explains a lot. This is really lovely. What is the greatest evidence to prove there are aliens amongst us?

I met 'em, I was with them, they are my friends and they communicate with me on a regular basis. But I challenge you, let me show you some aliens. Sure, let's do it. So he drove me to a prime UFO-spotting location on the outskirts of Roswell. There's reports of a lot of activity out here that people see, and especially when there's thunderstorms.

So we actually got it on a really good night. Oh, great. Cool. For a second there, Robert, I thought you were abducting me. (Laughs) No, I don't believe in abduction. Everybody goes willingly. So, where exactly should we look? Well, look up, because that's where they are.