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This program is not subtitled Today, at the National Press Club, Dr Jane Goodall. renowned conservationist, institute, Dr Goodall is recognised Founder of her own wildlife on chimpanzees since 1960. for her definitive work intervention now, She believes that without of extinction within a decade. they could be on the brink National Press Club Address. Dr Jane Goodall with today's BELL RINGS good afternoon, Ladies and gentlemen, the National Press Club, and welcome to and today's National Australia Bank, Dr Jane Goodall. and our guest speaker familiar with Dr Goodall's work Obviously, everybody in this room is and her...her background.

familiar in our broadcast audience, But for those who might not be so remarkable working life, Jane Goodall has had an absolutely in the animal world. studying mankind's nearest relatives And that goes back to 1960, to work in the wilds of Tanzania when at the age of 26 she began studying chimpanzees. was a feat in those days - That, in itself, rather differently women were regarded at the time. both in science and society a profound effect around the world Her studies have had on the study of primates - publications on the subject, they've produced a vast array of but many others as well, many from her, of academic and other awards. and for Jane Goodall, a huge number including the UNESCO gold medal, The most recent of those, this year,

from the French government and the Legion of Honour Dominique de Villepin. presented by the Prime Minister, the Jane Goodall institute In 1977, she established and to help protect their habitat, to support research on chimpanzees since then established and she's since... various countries around the world, a score of support institutes in

and more recently, has branched out supporting that whole system into a new series of organisations to harness the energy and youth... of youth for these causes. ..the energy and enthusiasm have her here today, It's a great pleasure to have in welcoming Jane Goodall. and I'm sure you'll join me APPLAUSE Well, thank you very much, whatever it is to everybody here. and, uh, good afternoon, good day, bring into the rooms where I speak, And it's customary for me to also learning about the past 46 years. the voice of the being whom I've been hear if you came with me So, a greeting call, as you would in Tanzania to the Gombe National Park in the morning. and climbed up the hills The greeting call of the chimpanzee, for those people listening, and it's very appropriate

because it's the distance call. (Hoots like a chimpanzee) APPLAUSE And... (Laughs) the wonder of the African rainforest. That, that sound for me epitomises just a little bit further I want to take you back Park when I was 26 years old, from my first trip to Gombe National when I was a tiny little girl because this really all began with a passion for animals, growing up in England, understanding mother. and having an amazing and all the stories, There isn't time to go into these early efforts of mine but she was so supportive of all to write about them. to understand animals, to watch them, didn't laugh at me when at age 10 And she was the only person who there were no movies in those days, I discovered the books about Tarzan - this was pre-Johnny Weissmuller - I fell passionately in love I read the books, and, of course, lord of the jungle, with this wonderful that other wimpy Jane. and then he went and married I was so jealous. LAUGHTER my dream began - I would grow up, But, this was the time when I would live with animals, I would go to Africa, and I would write books about them. But, how could I? for a bicycle, let alone a motor car. We didn't have enough money dark continent, back in those days. And, know, Africa was the I was the wrong sex, I was a girl, And, as you just heard, that sort of thing. and girls didn't do So, people would say, something you can achieve?" "Jane, why don't you dream about Except mum. "If you really want something, And she used to say, take advantage of opportunity, "and you work hard, and you you will find a way." "and you never give up, aged 26, that was my second visit. When I did arrive in Tanzania, working as a waitress I had saved up money to get to Tanzania in the first place a British protectorate. and it was Tanganyika back then - Leakey, after I'd been there awhile. And I heard about the late Louis it was all fixed up nicely, I had a job, about animals, and he found that I really did care searching for fossil bones he took me on an amazing safari, young English girl. with his wife and one other And that was where he realised that, he'd been looking for, that I was the person he says, for about ten years. the behaviour of chimpanzees Would I go and try and learn about

in their natural habitat? behaviour shared by humans today He, he reckoned that if we found maybe that behaviour was present and chimpanzees today, about 6 million years ago, in a common ancestor human-like creature, if we believe in this ape-like, part of our own human evolution and therefore had probably been throughout the millennia, really. throughout the years - to find the money for me to, And it took him a year to go and start this study, and he only got money for six months. to get the permission - It was very hard for him

indeed, the British authorities refused to let me go alone,

I had to have a companion. And the volunteer who came for four of those six months was the same amazing mother. She really has played an amazing role in everything I've done that's good. I...she has no part in anything I've done that's less good, so, that's the role my mother has played. And, so, there I was, 26 years old, no degree of any sort, going to do something that women didn't do, in an administration that felt I would be bound to fail. And here we are, 46 years later, and although I very seldom get a chance to visit Gombe myself these days - twice a year, briefly - nevertheless we have a wonderful team of...students and a lot of Tanzanians who are continuing this longest field research - unbroken -

on one group of animals that's ever been. And it will continue some time into the future. And I think, looking back over these 46 years, what impresses us most is how like us chimpanzees are.

And when I say chimpanzees, they are closer to us genetically even than the gorillas and the orangutans of Asia, which of course, are closer to you in Australia. But, the chimpanzee differs genetically by only 1%. And since the genome's been unravelled, we're even closer than we thought before - we differ mainly in the expression of certain genes. And the structure of the brain - more like ours than that of any other living creature. And here I include all the great apes.

And, these amazing relatives of ours are able

to do many things intellectually that we used to think were unique to humans. The big stir, the big breakthrough in my own research came after the first four months, when the money was running out, just after my mother had left, when I was really worrying that I wouldn't see something really exciting before the money ran out - in which case it would have been deemed a useless expedition. Everybody would say, "Well, we told you so." But that one morning, when I saw the chimpanzee I'd named David Greybeard, the first to lose his fear of me, because chimps are very conservative and they'd never seen a white ape before, which, of course, is what we are, and they would run away.

But David, for some reason, began allowing me closer.

And on this one day, I saw him reach out, pick a piece of grass, and use it as a tool to fish termites from their nest. And pick a leafy twig and strip the leaves - that's the beginning of tool making, modifying an object for a specific purpose. And at that time, we were defined as man the tool maker. It was thought to make us more different

from the rest of the animal kingdom than anything else. So that when I sent a telegram to Louis Leaky, he returned an answer, "Now we must redefine man, redefine tool, "or accept chimpanzees as humans." LAUGHTER And, over the years that followed that groundbreaking discovery, so many more amazing characteristics of these close relatives of ours, The long childhood - five years between live births - the fact that young chimps, like young humans, have to learn by observing, and they can imitate and practice what they've seen. So that we find across Africa, there are different kinds of tool-using behaviours, passed from one generation to the next through observation and imitation - we can define them as simple cultures. We find there are long-term supportive bonds between family members, that can last right throughout a life that can be more than 60 years. The oldest chimpanzee in captivity is said to be 74 - and that's the original Cheetah from the Johnny Weissmuller films. In the wild, we think they don't live much more than 50 years for most of the time. Each chimpanzee has his or her own personality, they're as different from each other as we are. And they... ..we've been able, over these years, to record the life histories and family histories of these extraordinary beings. When it comes to communication, their non-verbal communication - kissing, embracing, patting one another on the back, swaggering, shaking the fist, throwing rocks - they do these things in the same kind of context we do, and clearly they mean the same kind of thing. They can show sophisticated cooperation, they're not just vegetarian, but they sometimes very successfully hunt and then share the prey, and they hunt things like monkeys, and young pigs, and bush bucks. Meat, however, only takes up about 2% of their total intake, which is mostly fruit, and other kinds of leaves, blossoms, and so forth. Tragically, I found in the early 1970s that chimpanzees, like us, have a dark side to their nature,

they're capable of extreme brutality, even a kind of primitive warfare, which involves conflict between neighbouring social groups. And there were scientists who suggested I should downplay this aggressive side of chimpanzee nature, because they argued that people would seize upon this, and they would say, "Ah, these aggressive tendencies "clearly have been inherited by us right from some distant primate past, "from their common ancestor, perhaps, "and therefore war and violence are inevitable." First of all, I don't believe for a moment that war and violence are inevitable, although, you might look around the world today, and wonder whether that's true. But certainly, as individuals, each one of us is mostly, for the most part, capable of controlling those aggressive tendencies that we all have from time to time. Most people do that. And we should take heart, too, from the fact that if we have inherited aggressive tendencies - which I believe we have - we have also inherited tendencies of love, compassion and altruism, which we see illustrated again and again in chimpanzee society - particularly in the relationships between family members. It's tragic that these chimpanzees, along with the other great apes, who, more than perhaps any other creature, have served as ambassadors, reaching out from the animal kingdom to us, and helping us to understand absolutely that we are not the only beings on this planet with personalities, minds, and above all feelings.

Chimpanzees can actually die of grief, die of a broken heart, give up when they lose their mothers, even though they may be quite capable of feeding on solid foods. Perhaps the thing which makes us the most different from chimpanzees and all other creatures, as far as we know, anyway, is that we have this sophisticated spoken language. And with this spoken language, we can do something which I don't believe other creatures can do - we can teach our children about things that are not present. We can talk about the far distant past and derive lessons from it, if we will only listen. We're not very good at that, it seems. We can make plans for the distant future, and perhaps most importantly, we can sit around and discuss an idea. And depending on the different people in the discussion group, the idea will change rather like an amoeba as the wisdoms of the group are introduced to this discussion. How sad that with this extraordinary ability, which I believe has... has really sparked our intellect, so that, even though chimpanzees are capable of intellectual feats like learning American sign language, learning 300-500 words,

we know they're capable of abstraction and generalisation, we know they have a... some kind of concept of self,

they can recognise themselves, they have a sense of humour. But, whatever we think about the brilliance of the chimpanzee mind,

it pales in significance when we compare it to the human intellect. So, what has happened? Why is it that we are destroying the planet? The...chimpanzees probably numbered about 1,000,000 when I began in 1960,

and today their numbers are no more than 150,000, and maybe considerably less. And the other great apes are suffering in the same way - from deforestation, from human population growth, from what's known as the bushmeat trade - the commercial hunting of wild animals for food - the logging companies that either practice illegal logging - and this is particularly damaging for the orangutans of Asia - or they make roads deep into the heart of the forest, so even if they're practicing sustainable logging, the hunters can go in from the towns, camp at the end of the road, and shoot everything - elephants, chimps, gorillas and monkeys, birds and bats - smoke the meat and sell it in the towns where the urban elite will pay more for it than they will for a piece of chicken or goat, because there is no... ..there is no tradition of domesticating animals for food. And, of course, in Indonesia, there's the whole palm oil industry, whole forests being cut down to grow oil, and in some cases forests being cut down to turn into chopsticks. And we all know that if we look around the world today, we find that everywhere we're destroying this planet. Everywhere we see signs of human... of human destruction. And, so, with this amazing brain, how is it that we're destroying the only planet we have? I'm sure some of you have heard the scientist E O Wilson has worked out that if the entire world, the populations of the world, including India, China and so forth, would attain the standard of living that we have and accept as normal - and I'm not talking about the super-wealthy, but us - then we would need three or even four more planets, we don't have them. And rapidly we are running out of non-renewable natural resources. And Australia has many natural resources, and I read an article in the newspaper this morning by your Prime Minister, saying, "We can become the superpower, "and we can export all these natural resources. "The natural gases, and the uranium, and the petroleum, and the coal." And what happens to the... to the environment where these natural resources are mindlessly taken and sold? And what will happen in the long run, here? The...fact that we're still hurling pesticides, chemicals from our agriculture, from our industry and from our household into the environment, not listening to that seminal work by Rachel Carson called 'Silent Spring', in which she first pointed to the dangers of DDT and then we had CFCs, and so forth. And we're still polluting the environment. We're still polluting agricultural land, which is damaging the food itself, and which is leaching down into the streams, into the rivers, finally into the ocean, and also down into the ground water, into the aquifers. So that the great aquifers of the world,

that we all depend on for long-term water supplies, are becoming polluted. And they're also become depleted, they're sinking lower and lower as we use up vast areas of the natural environment for grazing cattle or growing grain to feed cattle. And we know about the reckless burning of fossil fuel and how that is affecting global climates. And we know that the ice in the north is melting, we know that polar bears are going to become extinct because the ice... melts earlier and freezes later, and they haven't got the ability to survive in between. And we know that all around the world we're losing biodiversity - species are being driven to local or total extinction. And we know, of course, that there's human greed and cruelty and crime and human rights are abused all the time, and there's this terrible inequality of wealth and there is abject poverty and disease and famine, hunger, as well as this gradual decrease of water, so that there are millions of people living without easy access to water of any sort, and even more who have no access to drinkable, potable water. So, why is it? What...why are we doing this? And I think it's because somehow there's been a disconnect between this extraordinary brain, and the human heart. And if we think of the human heart unscientifically as the seat of compassion, then we're making a disconnect that means we can be very clever and very dangerous. And we're losing wisdom. The indigenous people of the world almost always used to sit down and make a major decision based on, "How will this decision affect our people generations ahead?" How many major decisions today, involving millions of dollars, affecting millions of people, are based on, "How will this decision affect the next shareholder's meeting?" Three months ahead. And that means a lack of wisdom. I began travelling in 1986, 300 days a year from 1986 on, talking, first of all, about the plight afflicting the chimpanzees and their rainforests, and the other great apes, and the other animals of the world. And...first of all I travelled in Africa, and then I realised how many of Africa's problems can be laid the result of our unsustainable lifestyles and so I began travelling in Europe and the United States, and then moved into Asia. And everywhere I went, I found that there were young people who seemed to have lost hope. And they were either depressed, apathetic, or angry. And when I began talking to them - and I'm talking about high school students, but most particularly university students, well, they were reading the newspapers, they were watching television, and they...told me that they felt that we'd compromised their future, and there was nothing they could do about it. And we have, and we are compromising their future. I've got three little grandchildren. And when I look at them and think how we've damaged this planet since I was their age, I feel this pain, this shame...this anger.

And that led to our program, the Jane Goodall Institute's program, which you referred to - we call it "Roots and Shoots". Roots make a firm foundation. Shoots seem tiny, but to reach the sun, together they can break through a brick wall. And we see the brick wall as all the problems that we've inflicted on this planet, the environmental ones and the social ones. And it's a message of hope -

hundreds and thousands of young people around the world can break through, and can make this a better world for all living things. It began in Tanzania... and it began in 1991. It moved out of Tanzania to the United States and some parts of Europe in '94. It really began growing fast after 9/11 somehow there seemed to be a yearning in the hearts of youth and their parents, and often their teachers for some kind of hope for the future, because the world has become blacker and blacker since 9/11, everywhere. And the main message of "Roots and Shoots", which is now in more than 90 countries it's growing in Australia - it's my second visit here. And I talked about it even in 1997, and now, thanks to Alicia Kennedy and, more recently, Maria Arnold, we have many Roots and Shoots groups growing up in different parts of Australia. So, it's in more than 90 countries, we've got about 8500 active groups growing all the time, and we have programs from preschool right through university, and university is the fastest growing and most dynamic. So, what is it? OK, the most important message - every single individual - that means every one of us - makes a difference every day. We cannot live through a day without impacting the world around us. We leave an ecological and a social footprint, and we all have a choice as to what kind of footprint we want to make. And it's so easy to sit back and look at the problems of the world, and decide, "Well, there's nothing I can do about it. "They're too big, and I'm just one person." And as one person, indeed, we can do nothing. But as millions, if we all make these decisions each day,

if we spent a little bit of time thinking about, "How does I'm, what I'm buying, what I'm eating, "what I'm wearing - how does that affect the environment, "how does it affect animal welfare, "how does it affect people in other parts of the world?" If we just think a little bit more, and learn a little bit more, and adjust our behaviour even a little bit,

it's going to start making a difference. And kids get it. Every group of Roots and Shoots

chooses three different kinds of project.

They can be big projects, or they can just be small things that the children do every day, or once a week or something. But they are projects in the area, first of all, of their own human community, secondly, of...for animals, including domestic animals, and thirdly, for the environment that we all share. And what they...projects they choose will depend on the local problems. So that they differ from country to country, they differ from...whether the children are living in the inner city or in the rural areas, if they're rich or they're poor. In some cases, it depends on their religion and, of course, it depends on their age.

And the...Roots and Shoots program, I think, is what gives me the energy to keep on travelling around the world. Because young people - and they get to choose these projects, mind you - they are so imaginative, and once they start working then it's roll up your sleeves and get out there and do it. It's not just book-learning. And once they start seeing the effect that they have, whether it's cleaning a stream, restoring a wetland, raising money to build a dog shelter, going to visit elderly people who've perhaps been abandoned by their families, or whatever it is - they become so excited, and they become so determined that they're going to continue making a difference. And these young people are going to be the next generations to move out and become the parents, the teachers, the lawyers, the doctors, the people cleaning the roads, the next journalists and television people, the next people, uh... filming people like me. And they're going to be the next politicians, too. And this, these are generations of young people

who have a slightly different look on the world to so many people today. They've understood the danger of this materialistic consumer culture that we have got bogged down in, which is destroying the planet. And they understand that to be happy is not just about making money and more money and more money - it's about the quality of our lives, and it's particularly about what we can do with our lives to help other people, other animals, and the environment. And woven throughout all of these Roots and Shoots groups is the theme of learning to live in peace and harmony with yourself, with your family, with your community, and between the nations of the world.

We search for solutions for some of the problems. It's no good talking to kids about changing the world and making it a better place and then filling them up with stories of gloom and doom. And we have programs in Tanzania which are helping the chimpanzees

to survive into the future. We have a program called 'Take Care', which is working to improve the lives of the villagers living around the tiny Gombe National Park, in a very holistic way. Uh...which maybe we can talk about later.

It's on our website -, but this program is including microcredit banks, so that women can take out tiny loans

for environmentally sustainable programs. It's about all... giving scholarships to girls

so they can go to secondary school. It's about providing information about HIV/AIDS, and most importantly family planning. It's about farming most suitable for the very degraded, steep, rocky landscape around Gombe National Park - from which all the trees have gone. But it's also providing great hope, because the seemingly dead tree stumps where the women have been hacking and hacking at them for food, and the men have been cutting them down to grow their crops, so that the land has become increasingly infertile. And the seemingly dead tree stumps, if they're left alone, within five years can be a thirty-foot tree. This 'Take Care' program began 15 years ago - we have 'Take Care' forests springing up around the Gombe National Park, providing, potentially, leafy corridors, so that the chimpanzees which were... well, still are completely trapped

within an island surrounded by cultivated fields they will now have an opportunity to move through these corridors and interact with other remnant groups. And we're helping the farmers by helping them to market their coffee, to market the honey, to market ginger and things of this sort. We've been told it's one of the best, if not the best program in Africa, so that USAID, United States Development Aid, they're now giving us money to replicate this program

in other parts of Africa, around other endangered wilderness areas, and they sent 62 of their people from other parts of the world to Kigoma, the little town nearest to Gombe, to see how it's done. My four reasons for hope - the human brain, we are, with our backs to the wall, beginning to find new technologies that will enable us to live in greater harmony with nature, we're beginning to understand, as individuals, what we as an individual can do. The resilience of nature - we can destroy an environment, we can pollute a river, but with time, with help, with care,

those places can be given another chance. Animal species on the brink of extinction can be rescued, and given another chance. And there's so much wonderful work going on with the scientists in Australia... ..helping some of the very endangered endemic animals of this continent. third reason for hope, is, of course, this energy and commitment and enthusiasm and often courage of young people. Once they know the problems and are empowered to act. So that everywhere I go around the world there are shining eyes saying, "Dr Jane, we want to show you what we've been doing "to make the world a better place." And, my last reason for hope is what I call the indomitable human spirit. Those people who tackle projects that seem absolutely impossible, and yet, they won't give up. People like Nelson Mandela, who emerged after 17 years of hard, physical labour, and somehow had this amazing ability to forgive, so he could lead his nation out of the evil regime of apartheid without a bloodbath. People who suffer from unbelievably terrible physical afflictions that would put most of us in bed - and they get out there, and they are leading lives that are absolutely inspirational to those around them. And these inspirational people are in all walks of life, They're in every country, they're all around us, if we will seek for them. So, those are my four reasons for hope. And...uh...what time am I meant to stop? LAUGHTER Can I have another one story? Alright, um, well, I forgot to look when I began. last story, then. About a chimpanzee who was born in Africa, whose mother was shot when he was one and a half - that's the only way you catch a baby chimp. And...he was shipped off to a North American zoo. And for about 10 years, he lived completely alone, this very social creature, in a tiny cage

with iron bars and a cement floor - the old-fashioned zoo cage. Then, after these ten years - and he was called Jojo - a new zoo director decided to build

the biggest enclosure in North America, and he surrounded it by a moat filled with water, because chimpanzees don't swim. And...19 other chimps were bought - he wanted a big gene pool - they were carefully introduced to each other, always difficult, 'cause there is this male competitiveness, this striving for dominance - I said chimps were very like humans, didn't I? LAUGHTER And, uh... Like a whole set of politicians, these chimps are. But, anyway, finally they're all introduced, they're let out into the enclosure, and then, one of the new, young males challenges the senior male. Well, the senior male's Jojo. He doesn't know anything about chimp behaviour,

he didn't have the opportunity to learn. He's terrified as this young male comes up with bristling hair, swaggering, lips bunched in a ferocious scowl, waving branches, and Jojo runs into the water - he doesn't know anything about water either.

It's something you drink in a cup. He manages to get over the railing that was built to stop the chimps drowning in the deep water beyond. Three times he comes up gasping for air, and then he disappears under the water. And luckily for him there was a man there, Rick Swope, who visits that zoo one day a year with his wife and three little girls. And...he jumps in, even though the keeper grabs him, tells him Jojo weighs 130 pounds, that male chimps are dangerous, that he may get killed - he pulls away, and he has to swim, feeling, under the water until he touches Jojo's body. Gets this 130 pound dead weight over his shoulder, and gets over that barrier and pushes Jojo up onto the bank, and then turns to rejoin his rather hysterical family. There was a woman there with a video camera - she doesn't remember filming, but she did. And you see from this little piece of film that's all over the place, that the people on the bank start screaming at him to come back, because they can see three of the big male chimps coming to see what the commotion is about with their hair bristling, and at the same time, Jojo is sliding back towards the water, because the bank was built too steep. And the camera amazingly steadies on Rick, as he stands with one hand on that railing. And you see him look up at his wife and kids, you see him look towards where these male chimpanzees are approaching, and then you see him look down at Jojo, who's just disappearing under the water. And, for a moment Rick stood there, motionless. And then he went back - he ignored the screaming people and the approaching chimps. He's pushing Jojo, Jojo's making small efforts to grab onto something and with Rick pushing, just in time, Jojo gets a thick tuft of grass and just in time Rick gets back over that barrier. And that evening, that little piece of film was flashed across North America. And the then-director of JGI USA saw it, and he called Rick. He said, "That was a very brave thing you did. "You must have known it was dangerous. "Everybody was telling you - what made you do it?" And Rick said, "Well, you see, I happened to look into his eyes. "And it was like looking into the eyes of a man. "And the message was - won't anybody help me?"

And that's message that I've seen in the eyes of little chimps for sale in the African markets beside the slaughtered bodies of their mothers. It's a message I've seen looking out from the five foot by five foot prison cells of the medical labs. It's a look that I've seen in the eyes of the chimps

cruelly trained for the circus, in the eyes of chained elephants, in the eyes of the little orangutan orphans, when their forests have been burned and their mothers have been shot. But I've seen it, too, in the eyes of little children in Africa who've seen their parents killed in the ethnic violence, and in the refugee camps. And I've seen it in the eyes of street children with no homes, and the children in inner cities who are caught up in gang violence with nowhere to go. And if you see that look, and feel it in your heart, you have to jump in to try to help. And that's my greatest hope. Because everywhere in the world, wherever these problems exist, whether they be environmental or social, there are people who see the look, see the appeal and jump in. And sometimes they're volunteers working for no money at all. Sometimes they risk their health, sometimes they risk, or even lose, their lives to try and seek for justice. And there are people in this room who've helped, who've jumped in to help the cause, Mary Lewis, who travels with me, especially in North America, and works, I mean, literally, nearly all night doing all the emails that she gets, plus the ones that should come to me. And Deedee Woodside, who started GAFA to help the great apes, particularly the orangutans of Asia. And Jeff Cannon who's working with GRASP - which is the Great Ape Survival Plan, to try and protect the great apes, the remaining great apes of Africa and Asia. We just met Damian, who's done the graphics for some of J... ..the Roots and Shoots Australia's literature. So, all of you, and everybody else here, who's seen that look and has jumped in to help - this is what gives me the greatest hope, if each of us does our bit, if each of us realises we make a difference then, indeed, there is hope for the future. Thank you. APPLAUSE Thank you very much, Dr Goodall, let's deal with some of those questions

you foreshadowed a little while ago. The first one today is from Roslyn Bebe. Dr Goodall, thank you very much for an inspiring address. I'd just like to ask a question about the bushmeat trade. There was a report in New Scientist, recently, which showed it was on the verge of becoming an export industry, and was available in markets in Britain and the United States. I'm just wondering what can be done to control this trade, and how extensive it is? OK, well, it's fairly extensive. I know it's shockingly, shockingly extensive in the UK and most people simply don't know about it. It's coming in illegally - it's coming in in diplomatic suitcases. They have... Britain has been very, very slow. There are not many machines that can detect bushmeat,

they have pitifully few sniffer dogs. The answer is sniffer dogs, more surveillance in the different airports and ports around the coast. The same thing applying to the United States. And it's really surprising to me that it's increasing, because after 9/11, the surveillance has become so much tougher. So, I mean, I'm sure that no bushmeat will get into Australia - they make you throw away your chocolate and your wrapped cookies and things like that. So, I think you're safe from bushmeat. But it's an important point, because Ebola can be caught from bushmeat, they think possibly the British foot-and-mouth epidemic came from bushmeat from Ghana,

and, you know, certainly the bushmeat trade in Africa the butchering of chimpanzees, almost certainly gave rise to HIV 1 and HIV 2, in two different parts of Africa, from two different chimpanzee populations. So, although chimpanzees don't have AIDS, they have the simian version. But, clearly the...the retrovirus mutated when it got in, you know, perhaps into a cut, as the butcher, you know, hunter was butchering a corpse, and then it mutated. And, of course, this retrovirus is known to rapidly mutate, which is why it's been so very difficult to control. Next question's from John Millard. Thank you, Ken, John Millard, ArtSound FM. Dr Goodall, in the 1960s you had your first child, Hugo - also known as Grub, and I'm sure you can all identify with that. He's still a grub. LAUGHTER But you and your husband, Hugo, decided to raise him in the same manner as chimpanzees did, with patience and understanding and caring. Tell me, was that approach successful, and if so, what do you have to teach the rest of us? Well, it was, it was very successful, but the chimpanzees... you know, first of all, you get good mothers and bad mothers. And it's very clear that the good mother who is, um...she is protective but not restrictive she is affectionate, playful, she's supportive - very important - but she also is a disciplinarian, she doesn't just let the kid do what it likes. And those young ones tend to grow up and play a very important role in the reproductive success of their community

and they have relaxed relations with other adults. The mothers at the other end of the scale, who are less of all those things, and above all, less supportive, raise young who grow up to be tense,

very often tense in their interactions with others, therefore they are less successful as mates, less dominant as males, and so are less significant in the overall success of their community. And if we can say the same about human children, which more and more psychologists and psychiatrists believe is the case, then we need to pay more attention to early experience - to those very important first two or three years of life. I saw something in the paper today about the government trying to boost early learning, and it clearly is very important. So, my son, you know, I understood that until he could speak I could treat him more or less just like a chimp infant. Once he began to understand that some things were appropriate and some weren't, then I could discipline him, and he has grown up to be a very well put together young man. LAUGHTER Thank you. Into - I mean, psychologically well put together. LAUGHTER You know... He's very handsome, too, but I didn't mean that. Glenn Milne. Uh, Glenn Milne, Doctor Goodall, from New Limited's Sunday newspapers, and also 'The Australian'. You mentioned the dark side of chimpanzees in their behaviour and conflict between groups. I was wondering, particularly in the context of the tragedy unfolding in the Middle East at the moment, is there any... lessons that you can draw from the behaviour of these groups towards each other that might be applied to global diplomacy to some benefit? Well, it would be tempting to try and extrapolate. But where...I mean, I think, really, the appropriate comparisons to be made would be towards this, kind of, so-called "primitive warfare" of the chimpanzees and the kind of warfare that we get with the gangs. You know, you get the gangs and they go out and they fight over different things, and perhaps the Mafia,

but the underlying commonality, really, is for chimpanzees they fight for territory, but they fight for territory, I think, because there are resources in that territory which they need for their own community, their own females and youngsters.

And we find, unfortunately, that the young males have a real... ..they're fascinated by this terrible intercommunity violence, and when the big males have turned back, some of these late adolescent males will creep on and look at the enemy, even though it puts them in some danger. So, you see, a lot of precursors of those things which I think have turned into unique human warfare. But we tend to fight wars more with our intellects and our brains, today. At least, the wars are...are engineered by people who have nothing to do with the fighting on the ground. Simon Gross. Simon Gross from Science Media, Dr Goodall. Um, you referred to the use of chimpanzees in scientific research and I assume there are tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of primates, chimpanzees and others in, uh... in captivity for that purpose. And we do terrible things to them, we...inflict diseases upon them and we deprive them socially and psychologically in ways that make Guantanamo Bay look like a five-star Hilton. Um...I wonder where you come out on that. Do you accept the scientific lobby's view that some kind of research using primates is essential to solve human disease, and therefore do you accept some kind of regime of ethical management,

or do you reject that as a... as a research method in total? And if you do, how do you...what do you say to the medical researchers who say that they can solve a human disease? Well, the problem is that I don't know enough about the...the virology and immunology, which is what, at least chimpanzees are mostly used in that kind of research. However, I pay attention to those people who do know, and there is a growing lobby of actual medical doctors and, um...veterinarians, who have done extensive research. And so, there are two issues, here. One is where the experimenters will claim that the huge body of medical progress has been obtained by research with animals. In fact, that turns out not to be true. Apparently. And this is what the... the medical historians tell us - that most of the breakthroughs actually come from epidemiology and clinical observation, but that any new drug, by law, in most developed countries, anyway, must be first tested on animals. So, many of the primates and other animals languishing in these tiny cages are there just to test the efficacy and safety of some of these drugs. And we could spend a lot of time arguing the pros and cons, but here's my take. That we are inflicting terrible torture on millions of animals around the world - not only in medical research, by the way, but also our farm animals. And for, as far as medical research, I think we need a new mindset. Instead of saying, "Well, we do realise now "that animals are not just objects, and that they do have feelings, "and that they do have a life that perhaps is important... " of this we will use as few animals as possible "and treat them as well as possible." But I want a mindset that says, "Well, actually, this is causing unacceptable harm "to non-human beings,

"and it behoves us, with our tremendous brains, "to get together, around the world, and find ways "of doing this work without the use of animals as quickly as possible."

And I take hope from the fact that there are many alternatives today, which exist only because those who care about animals have done their own research and found these alternatives. In many cases, even if the alternatives have been approved, by, like, the FDA in America, they're still not enforced. There are still companies that want to do it in the old way. Threat of litigation is one of the reasons why they want to hang on to the old, tested, tried animal research. But, you see, there have been many drugs that would have hugely benefited humans, but that have been withheld because they were harmful to some of the animals they were tested on, and the other way around, like Thalidomide, which was quite safe with all the animals they tested it on but think what it did to blight the lives of hundreds of children when women took Thalidomide as anti-depre...whatever it was. Antiemetics. To calm them, yes, yes. Uh, Dr Goodall, let me just remind our audience, here, that if they'd like to ask a question, please indicate your preference to our colleague over here in... black. There's one here that you can't see, with a hand up. OK, uh, we'll go over there in a minute, and while the microphone's getting there, after Roslyn Bebe... Let me ask you what you think about the people that you were talking about earlier who are... ..the young people who are joining so enthusiastically in so many of these projects,

and will eventually go on to so many callings, including politics. How will they treat issues like population policy? With population growth seeming to be, overall, inexorable, and in some parts of the Old World actually being encouraged, while it's being regarded as a serious problem in the Developing World, as you've already referred to. Well, I think how they will deal with it will...will depend...well, OK - we talk to the older "roots and shoots" groups about population, we never talk about population control, we talk about family planning. And the reason we emphasise in our Take Care program the work with women is because it's been shown all around the world that as women's education improves, family size drops. And the Grameen Bank, which started in Bangladesh, and I've been there with Muhammad Yunus, who's one of my saints - I mean, doing more to help the poorest of the poor perhaps than anyone else - every woman who takes out a loan has to read a sheet of paper with 13 - they're not requirements, she doesn't have to sign it - she has to read them and say, "Yes, I agree this is the right way to be," and it's things like helping my fellow women and helping them repay their loans and stuff like that. But it also says, "I agree that I should have a small family, "as small a family as possible." And I believe I'm right in saying that the drop in birth rate

in Bangladesh is the highest in the Developing World. So, certainly with our own experience in Take Care, first of all these micro-credit loans with our nine banks, the women, 98% return the money, and usually the 2% of money that isn't paid back is because of some illness in the family, and the woman always says, "Well, when I can, "I will pay this money back," and sometimes one of the other women in the group will pay it back for her.

So, we have had, definitely, as... You see, there's a fine line between delivering primary health care and keeping babies alive and not having an over-production of babies because they stay alive instead of, as has been, about 30% death rate in the first year. But how can you plan a family if you expect that so many of your children will probably die? The good news is that the women in this part of Tanzania, which is very poor, they know quite well

that they cannot look after the large families that were culturally acceptable in the old days when you had a big family so that your children, you'd give them bits of land and when you were old, they'd come and look after you. But now what's happening is that the young have no land, they go off into the cities, very often they can't get jobs, so when you are your old, your kids all come back to your tiny piece of land and want you to help them. Here's another question from Roslyn Bebe. Dr Goodall, you've recently returned or been at an international primate conference in Uganda. What sort of progress is being made in the area of primate conservation? Well, I was very, very delighted to see the difference. There were 800 or more participants from around the world, and that particular conference, IPS, it used to be a preponderance of lab research and quite a lot of invasive research, and people out in the field who were simply out there to get their PhD data. And this time, I would say about 75% of all the young primatologists are not only doing field research, but are actively concerned and involved in conservation measures. And it's very moving, I mean, there was a little group from north Vietnam, and they are struggling with all the different problems in that country. There are some from China, some from Korea, and they really are up against it, but they're not giving up. And thanks to the internet, they can link up around the world, they're giving each other a lot of support. And of course we're going to see more forests and more primates go, but there are some still huge forests,

and what we have to concentrate on is saving those. The new President in Tanzania, President Kikwete, who is really passionate about the environment - and I know because I've spent time with him. And he's done things like banning plastic bags in the first four months of his Presidency. And he's got the cattle away from the water sheds, because they're trampling down, you know, spoiling the river banks, and they said, "What are we going to do to feed our cattle?" He said, "Sell some of them, you've got too many. "They must be able to be sustained environmentally." So, what was your question again? I've gone off the track. LAUGHTER How's it going? How's it going? So, we're going to lose more. But his motto is "protect and restore". And I think that's a perfectly good one for any of us who care about the environment - protect what's left and restore as much as we can.

Help people to plan their families and teach young people. I mean, why am I spending time with youth and not studying chimps? Because what's the point of my killing myself to save the chimps and their forests or the orang-utans and theirs if we're not raising new generations to do better than we've done, to be better stewards. Thank you. Our last question today is on your left over here. Dr Goodall, I've just returned from Zambia, where I've looked into those eyes and I've held a hand of one of those bushmeat babies. I just wanted to thank you for the guts that you've shown over the years you've been involved, and what you've done, and to ask you whether or not if you don't think that a chimp kiss is one of the best kisses in the world? LAUGHTER A chimp kiss... Particularly if that tongue comes out. LAUGHTER Yes, well, we do have, I didn't mention the sanctuaries in Africa. But because of the bushmeat trade, baby chimpanzees now become the little by-product. You know, no hunter in the old days, the subsistence hunter, they wouldn't shoot a mother with a baby, because they want to propagate the species,

but today it's commercial. And it's the same kind of thing as the next shareholder meeting - there's this getting your buck from going out and shooting anything.

And so these baby chimps, well, there isn't any flesh on them, you can't sell them as meat, not the little tiny ones, so you sell them on the market, and maybe some bar owner will buy one to attract customers, or maybe some silly expat will be sentimental and buy one to rescue it or whatever. And it's illegal to hunt and sell endangered species like chimps in all the range countries, just as it is with orang-utans. So, the governments can be persuaded to confiscate these infants, although they have other things on their plate like civil war and ethnic violence and so on. But we can't put them back in the wild, at least certainly not for a long time, even if we ever can, so we have to look after them in sanctuaries. So it's in the sanctuaries that you can get the chimpanzee kisses, not in the wild, and in fact because of the danger of disease, you know, moving from human to ape, as well as ape to human, there are quite strict requirements for some of the people coming to our sanctuaries in...

Well, there's only one sanctuary, of our sanctuaries, where people are actually allowed to cuddle the chimps, and then they have to have lots of health checks, lots of injections. But you're right, those little arms around your neck and the kiss, or when you tickle them and they laugh...

(Does impression) It's just wonderful. LAUGHTER APPLAUSE The last laugh on the chimps! Just stay there for a moment. APPLAUSE

Thank you very much for this past hour, Dr Goodall. It's been a great pleasure and a great honour to have you here. We'd like to make you a member of the Club. If you've got a chance with the rather frenetic travel program that you maintain to ever get back here in the next year, we'd be very pleased to see you again, thank you. Thank you. APPLAUSE THEME MUSIC Closed Captions by Captioning and Subtitling International