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(generated from captions) This Program is Captioned Live. Hello, Jason Om. The office

of a French satirical magazine

in Paris has been destroyed by a petrol bomb. It magazine's announcement it a petrol bomb. It follows the

would nominate the profit

Mohammed in its editor in chief

in the next issue. More later. Indonesian authorities have revised down the number people missing after a boat have revised down the number of

capsized off Java. They say up

to four people are believed to be missing as the search continues for survivors. So far

eight people have been

confirmed dead and 57 have been rescued. The Federal Government

says it is likely those on board were asylum seekers

heading to Australia.

A ceremony has been held to farewell the three Australian soldiers who died in Afghanistan. Coalition soldiers joined a large contingent at the main base in

Tarin Kot to pay tribute to the

three men killed at the

weekend. Captain Bryce Duffy, Corporal Ashley Birt and Lance

Corporal Luke Gavin died and seven other Australians were wounded when a rogue Afghan

army soldier opened fire on

them. In the service Australia's deputy commander

acknowledged the incident will

cause his troops to question

why they're there to train the

Afghan army. Whilst it will be natural

for some of us to question the for some of us to question

mission in light of what has

occurred, we should never lose

sight of the fact that these men died doing their

were there at patrol base Salt

Bed because that is where were most needed. Fun Bed because that is where they

were most needed. Fun relation

will be held for the will be held for the soldiers

once their bodies return to

Australia next week. A Comancheros bikie has been

found guilty of murdering a man

during a brawl at Sydney

Airport two years

Wells has more. In March 2009 29-year-old Anthony Zervas was

Wells bashed to death in a brawl at

Sunday afternoon and the Crown Sydney Airport. It was on a

case was that a fight broke out between members of the Hells Angels and the after after a chance encounter on a Angels and the Comancheros

domestic flight from domestic flight from Melbourne between the Presidents of the

two clubs. During a two clubs. During a four-month

trial here at the Supreme Court

at Parramatta, the jury heard that Anthony Zervas was bashed

with metal bollards, with scissors and stomped on as

he lay on the ground. The Crown

case case was that the fight

place in front of thousands of terrified passengers and

airport staff on a

afternoon. Six Comancheros

stood trial for his murder, one

of them the leader Mick Hawi

was been found guilty of murder. The other Comancheros were found not murder. The other five

guilty but four of them have been

been found guilty of various

riot and after ray charges. A

Hells Angels member has walked free

free from court after being

acquitted of riot and ray. acquitted of riot and after was in the public gallery. When

the verdict was read out she

bursts into tears but made no

comment to the media outside

court. It is not yet known when court. It is not yet

Mick Hawi or the others found

guilty of riot and after ray

will be sentenced. Outside in

the foyer of the court a giant

TV screen showed the verdicts TV screen showed the

being read out by being read out by the jury foremen and various supporters

of the other bikies were

watching that. One of them punched the air and said "Yes" when the verdict was when the verdict was read out. To finance and Australian shares are down. The All Ordinaries index has dropped...

motoring history is again up An old timer from Australia's

and running. After six months of restoration by the National

Museum in Canberra. The first

Holden sold in Australia in the Holden sold in Australia in the

late 1940s is back on the road. The Holden FX was a robust

family car made in Australia

and designed especially for

Australian conditions. We will

join Tim Palmer with 'The Drum'

in a moment. First a look at

tomorrow's weather around the

nation... This Program is Captioned Live.

Hello and welcome to The

Drum, I'm Tim Palmer. Coming up tonight - the seeker tragedy reignites the tonight - the latest asylum

debate over offshore

processing. Can Labor count on

the cross benchers to get

through the mining tax? And inside the secret world of bikie gangs with journalist Adam Shand. Our former NSW Liberal leader Adam Shand. Our panel tonight,

Chikarovski, James Carleton former NSW Liberal leader Kerry


from ABC radio national

breakfast and in

can join in on Twitter using

the hashtag The Drum. The

search has resumed for

survivors of an asylum seeker

Indonesian coast probably on boat which sank off

its way to Australia. Eight

died people are believed to have

died and four others are

missing. Both major parties are

denying their policies may have

led to the tragedy. Immigration Minister's blaming led

the current stalemate on

offshore processing. We have

said consistently, I have said and other government and

and other government ministers,

in the absence of the type of processing as part of a proper

regional framework like the

Malaysia arrangements we would

see more boats arriving and we

would see more deaths at sea would see more deaths at

and it is tragically been and it

proven to be the case. The Shadow Immigration Minister

says Labor should have accepted

the Coalition's compromise the Coalition's compromise to allow offshore processing on

Nauru. They need to be a government. Governments need government. Governments need to

get their legislation through

parliament and if they can't get that legislation through

with the support of the Greens and Independents and who put them in Government, the

Greens and Independents and if the Coalition offers a compromise in terms of the

amendment we have offered they should

should take it. The should take it. The Opposition leader challenged the government to put up its doomed


Migration Act bill or call an election. If, as the acting PM

has just informed the house, it

is so important that the Malaysia people swap be Malaysia people swap be put

into effect, will the

Government immediately bring

before the parliament for a vote the people swap

legislation? We will bring before the house when they vote

for it. Kerry Chikarovski, it sounds, from the facts we're

finding out today, there might

have been 60 or 70 people on a

9m body. Sadly doesn't this vindicate both the parties'

policy that if you make onshore

processing more attractive you

also increase the risks at sea?

Both parties were agreed Both parties were agreed that

was going to happen. If you had

on shone processing you'd

encourage more people to take

the risk because they figure

once they get here they have better chance of staying in the

country. The sad part about the

debate is that my understanding

for what the Opposition are

doing, is they're agreeing with

the Government in large

measure, the only thing they want

want to change in the legislation

legislation is an amendment which says that the offshore

processing will occur in

countries which are sig nit

Ries to the international agreements which agreements which protect refugees. The great irony in

all of that is that was the

position of the Labor Party

prior to the have always said "We have always said "We couldn't

go back to Nauru because have go back to Nauru because they weren't a sig nitery to the

convention". The Opposition convention". The Opposition is putting up an amendment which

would require them to do exactly what the Labor Party said they wanted to do in said they wanted to do in the first instance. I understand

there's poll argy-bargy over

this, but if we're to stop the

boats from coming, if we're to

- and understand the people who

are actually killing people are

not the Opposition or the

government, it is the people

smugglers. They're putting

people at risk by putting people at risk by putting them in these situations. the

out of business we have to get

the offshore processing. the offshore processing. Why the Government isn't the Government isn't prepared

to agree to this is in ways beyond me. They would get enormous respect within the

community if they agree to the amendment. There is only one amendment. If they agree to

that we can send out the

strongest of messages. That was Tony Abbott's line today, put the Malaysia

the Malaysia plan legislation

to the parliament. Does it

embarrass the Government to have that

have that bill in limbo while boats are

foundering? I don't know that it embarrasses the government, it frustrates the Government.

The Government has been clear

on the advice it has on the advice it has received

from the Immigration Department

is that the former pacific solution

solution won't work, it is not

a deterrent anymore. We need an

arrangement with transit

countries like Malaysia countries like Malaysia if we're actually going to stop

the boats coming and that is what the Government's

legislation allows it to do.

The Government, through The Government, through its agreement with Malaysian Government reaffirmed recently

at CHOGM by the Malaysian PM,

would put in place the kind of

protections that are necessary to ensure that the rights to asylum seekers asylum seekers are protected and, in fact, Malaysia, through

this process is actually

improving its treatment asylum improving its treatment of asylum seekers domestically as

well. It is really important to have the transit countries

involved in this, otherwise

what we end up with, as the

advice from the Immigration

Department is, we end up with

sending people to a country which means they come to

Australia anyway. It offshore, on shore processing

if you like. It is still

allowing the people and the smugglers

smugglers to sell a product to the unfortunate and very desperate desperate people who are

to get to this country. James,

short of coming up with short of coming up with some unthought of solution to the

logistics of monitoring boats

at sea, we're out of options

aren't we? Out of options except for the option that except

no-one wants to take, in terms

of the major parties which is

something akin to what Malcolm Fraser did, which was

humanitarian need coming out of

China and arranging to air lift

asylum seekers from countries, transit countries like Malaysia to Australia for processing. That is the Greens

line, safe passage? Safe passage. I can't see Julia

Gillard or Tony Abbott Gillard or Tony Abbott agreeing

to that especially when it is

so easy to blame the people smugglers as the killers. The people who are primarily

responsible for this thing in the totality are the Taliban

and the Sri Lankan army. If it

weren't for them no-one would

be fleeing the be fleeing the countries. The other other political argy-bargy in

Canberra continues over when the opposition knew Qantas was

planning to ground the fleet

and lock out the workers. Labor

has seized on comments by Joe

Hockey on '7.30' last night. He was

was asked by Leigh Sales when

he first heard what the he first heard what the airline

was considering. They have been saying that weeks saying that weeks ago publicly and

this in a meeting with Qantas

representatives? They have been

been saying it privately and publicly around Parliament

House for weeks. I would like to to know when to know when you actually heard

that, I don't want you to say generally? I can't recall. You

would have heard it in

would have heard it in a meeting from a Qantas representative in the past few

weeks if that was an option? Sure. Anthony Albanese claimed

the Shadow Treasurer's commence made it clear the Opposition had advanced

the Shadow Treasurer of the nation, you get told that

Qantas is planning to lock out its entire work force, including including workers who have nothing to do with any dispute and, as a result, lock out its customers from taking their

planes to their destination and

you can't recall when you were told. I think it was an extraordinary and explosive

interview by Mr Hockey

night. By this morning Joe

Hockey was telling ABC News Breakfast the Opposition didn't hear about the lock-out, or not until quarter to 5 on Saturday.

He accused Mr Albanese of

desperation. It is not the

Opposition that is running Opposition that is running the country. It is the Government.

Mr Albanese is trying to make a

silk purse out of a sow's ear.

He was the Transport Minister

that was warned on numerous

occasions as he admitted in parliament, that Qantas parliament, that Qantas may need to industrial action

deteriorated. James, is there

anything in what the Government

is pointing at Joe Hockey and

Tony Abbott? The Government

says that the Opposition knew

before they say they did, the Opposition says the Government

should have acted earlier than

they did. It missus the point

entirely which is the broader

debate about Qantas and the unions. The future of collective bargaining in this

country as well. They will presumably

presumably come to nothing

after the negotiations tanned

will go to arbitration. If the

cop it because it will be

illegal if they don't. If Qantas loses the debate escalates another notch and the

whole future of collective

bargaining. The union run

collective bargaining is out of

the question. Tony Abbott was

far from clear in his first

answer on the issue. Joe Hockey

sent out confusing signals. If the Opposition wasn't forewarned why are the

so much trouble making it clear in their answers? It is

typical in he said, she said,

we knew, you didn't, all sort of stuff. I think what's

happened is there has been a whole lot of reasons why

everyone wants to confuse the issue, including the Government and perhaps the and perhaps the Opposition as

well. The real essence of the

debate is should the debate is should the government have known, if they did know

with why didn't they act? The

reality is it was a fairly desperate step on the part of Qantas. Having said that,

there's been a lot of talk in

the media in the last couple of days about reputational damage days about reputational damage to Qantas.

a reasonable amount, I was

getting frustrated about getting frustrated about the

fact that I didn't know whether the

the plane I was going to go on

was going to be actually in the

air. I understand the whole

strategy in relation to Qantas

and as to why they have done

it. It was a brave step and it

will be interesting to see what's

what's as the outcome. The real

issue is the politics of it

all, it is not who knew what

and who didn't. It is was the

Government in a position to do

something about it before it

happened? I don't think a clear answer to that or as to whether Julia and Mr Albanese or Martin Ferguson as or Martin

minister for tourism could have

stepped up earlier and anything stepped up earlier and done

anything about that. That is

the only political issue at the

moment. The process needs to go

through the process and it will

be very interesting to see what

the outcome is for all the parties involved. Simon, is

that right, that on this

knew what argument, the

caravan's moved on and it doesn't really matter for another 21 days? I think if you're a passenger and you were caught

caught up in the industrial

action, you might like to know and you might like to and you might like to know whether or decision that Qantas made at

the last minute or whether it was

was something it had been

planning for a period of time.

There is a material issue

there. I think the point that James has made actually to what I think in the longer term is going to be the real

issue in this debate. It is going to be the debate on the

Coalition side and within the

business community about the roll

roll of collective bargaining

in Australia. What really

Qantas have done through their

action and since forcing the

Government to intervene under

the Fair Work Act, is to reinstate the centrality of the arbitration model for the

settling of fundamental

industrial relations disputes.

The Howard Government spent 11

years trying to margin lice the commission, the former

Industrial Relations Commission

to make it a big player in industrial rentionz industrial rentionz disputes.

You will recall it tried to

keep the dock dispute with

Patrick s that occurred back the Patrick s that occurred back in

the late 1990s, it tried the late 1990s, it tried to

keep that in the courts and out

of the commission for as much as possible. That is why as possible. That is why people

like Peter Reith have been

absolutely frustrated by the line they think line they think that Tony Abbott is taking. They think he's tried to he's tried to take a short-term

shot at the give for cheap political advantage, but in the process he's process he's fundamentally undermining Coalition values which is about getting rid of

conciliation and arbitration

and having the decisions put

back into the power of

employers and courts. It employers and courts. It is understandable he'd want to

keep his head down on this issue. I don't understand why the Opposition would

involved in this dispute, this

is clearly a dispute which is,

as you have both said, it is going to test the

of the new system that has of the new system that has been put in place. There are a lot

of people in the business

community why do not think the Fair Work Australia structure

is going to work. In some ways

Alan joirs taking the first

steps he has, it is the first

time we are going to see how

well that structure works for

both sides. I do think it is

for both sides. It is an interesting tactic on his part

to force the unions to come to

the table in this way. The fact

he had to actually get the government to try and

to do it is an interesting test

of the system. We might have more

more answers in 19 days

time. The mining tax

legislation has been introduced

into parliament into parliament without

guaranteed support from the

cross benches to get it through the

the lower house. The Government

says it would raise more than

$11 billion a year to be

invested in a company tax cut and minister Martin Ferguson

describes it as a once in a

lifetime opportunity to get a

fair return for all Australians from the mining boom. from the mining boom. He's

ruled out any changes to the

deal made with the mining

industry in order to please the Independents or the Greens. We

gave them our word, that was

the end of the debate. Our job

now is to deliver on our word

and we have no intentions of breaking our word with the

mining industry because I simply acknowledge that was a tough argument. Community sentiments has changed. So sentiments has changed. So far Tony Windsor says he back the tax unless the government agrees to more research on coal seam gas

mining. Andrew Wilkie and Rob Oakeshott are yet to Oakeshott are yet to confirm how they will vote how they will vote and today

Bob Katter hinted he would consider supporting the legislation under one

condition. If it is as touted a

mining tax, we will remain mining tax, we will remain very staunch in our Opposition to

the mining tax, opposed to the mining tax, opposed to it.

If the mining tax take development fund then we would take a different take a different approach. James, the bill is in the

house now. How do you think the

numbers are looking? Not so

good at the very minute but the

Government will be willing, Government will be willing, at

almost all costs, to meet the

needs of the cross benchers,

the country Independents. the country Independents. They said they won't change the tax

in terms of the promise to the Greens

Greens but as early or recently

as today the resources as today the resources minister indicated he's open to

negotiations on the coal seam mining with Tony Windsor. Which

tax itself, it just requires a

payoff in another area. Simon, how do you think the numbers

are going, which cross benchers

will back it will back it and what does Bob

Katter want, what is his development

development fund? He's looking

at the kind of the deal that

the WA National Party got, with the resources for regions fund

in WA. There is a fund of that

nature that is funded out of

the mining tax here. Bob the mining tax here. Bob is looking for a looking for a bigger slice of

the pie. I think the key point which is right here is that if

you look at the positions of

the various Independents, fundamentally they're not

arguing for changes in the

design around this tax. There

may still be detail when it goes through the committee

processes of the parliament

when we come back there. They're talking about side

deals related to the mining industry in regional development. The Government has

said it is prepared to talk to the Independents within reason

about those. It has a long way

written down at the moment as

backing it? I take a backing it? I take a golden

rule in parliament, you don't take any vote for granted on

any issue. If you look at the

Government's track record, 210 bills through the House of Representatives, Julia

Representatives, Julia Gillard

has shown one thing in the

parliament is she knows how to

get the deals done. I would be

confident that the Government will

will get there at the end of

the day. This is all about how

they are carving up the pie, isn't it? The way isn't it? The way they're

talking it is as if they're assuming the tax will go

through in one form of the other. other. It is it gets allocated and they're

all putting up their saying they have their

particular interests they want funded funded out of the tax. You don't see votes on the cross bench?

They're probably all in a

position where they're position where they're not committing until they can work

out how much they can get. I

think all the things they want,

they're going to need to get that money from that money from somewhere and clearly the mining tax is an enormous enormous opportunity for them

to get it. They're playing hard

ball. Simon is have been playing hard ball on

everything they're negotiating

at the moment. It is a case of

wait and see how hard they play

and how much the Government's

prepared to concede in terms allocating future funds out of the mining tax. On more troublesome legislation, the Opposition's putting forward

its own plan to tackle its own plan to tackle problem gambling. Shadow Families Minister Kevin Andrews has

released a discussion paper

proposing voluntary pre-commitment technology on

poker machines instead of the

mandatory scheme agreed by the

Andrew Wilkie. We're looking at

a scheme similar to the responsible serving of alcohol responsible serving of alcohol for the gambling industry and in addition to in addition to that, we're looking at additional information

information and counselling for

the people who are the problem game letters. The man behind

the poker machine reform push

is not impressed with the

Coalition's effort. I am appalled

appalled that the discussion

paper appears to have been

written by the poker machine

industry. It is full like 'Won't work', it pedals

the lies that the poker machine

industry is pedals. For example, in the example, in the discussion

paper it says that all poker

machine players will need licence to play poker machines.

That is a lie and the industry

knows that and the

knows that and the Coalition should know that. The pokies lobby would love another discussion paper because means discussion paper because it means more stalling, more

discussion, but no action. I am very disappointed that the

Coalition's going down the path

of effectively more

this issue. Kerry Chikarovski,

the productivity commission report is there, extensively.

What is the point at this

discussion paper except possibly

possibly to line up with the

club's lobby? I am torn on

this issue for a whole lot of

reasons. One of which I find it

difficult to understand and I

know I should understand this better at this stage with so

much debate around it. I still

find it difficult to understand how you can encourage someone

who is a gambling addict to be a little a little bit of a gambling

addict. It is to limit addict. It is to limit people's

losses. I have spent too much

time as a politician wandering

the streets of Sydney and meeting people who are gambling

addicts and often other addicts as

as well and you talk to those

people about the fact that when

they get their unemployment

benefit or whatever they take

it down and they lose it. These

people, I think are still going

to lose it with a mandatory

commitment, it might take them

a bit longer. You have to stop

people who have a problem from gambling altogether and all the time

into this debate and all the

money, it would have been from

my perspective better to be putting it into counselling services. I understand Wilkie's trying to do and Wilkie's trying to do and what Senator Xenophon is trying to

do and I understand the productivity commission is

saying it is the only way to saying it is the only way to do

anything about it. I am not

sure whether it is going to

work. The Opposition are saying they don't think it is going to

work and lets have work and lets have people self-identify it. The self-identify it. The advantage

of that is I suppose is to say "I have got a

was the first question Kevin

Andrews was asked, if mandatory pre-commitment won't work why would they propose voluntary pre-commitment for a trial? It

is a very good question.

clubs and the Opposition say they're clubs and the Opposition say they're opposed to mandatory pre-commitment because it

expensive but the clubs aren't

worried that implementing it

will be expensive, they're

worried that implementings it

will work. The productivity

commission made clear 40% of

pokies revenue comes from

problem gamblers. If you solve

that the club revenue goes down by half. That by half. That is by half. That is the bottom

line of this. If we keep pokie

revenue where it revenue where it is now,

problem gambling remains a

problem, that is an unavoidable fact of the current situation.

The only thing that stops it is

the removal of the prevalence

of available outlets and no-one

has an appetite, that at least

I have heard, to deal with that. Most don't go to counsellors, like most alcoholics don't get

treatment. How does this

address the issue? That is why

I am struggling with this, if you're having a mandatory

pre-commitment so people can nominate whatever the nominate whatever the maximum

amount is, that doesn't stop

them from gambling - Isn't the theory that by people, by nominating before they start betting, then they're betting, then they're having put out of reach the kitty.

When they enter a different psychological phase compulsion during betting? I

will be happily proven wrong on

all had this but to my mind, if

you're a problem gambler, you will commit to the amount that you possibly can. The report suggests

otherwise, that it is their ability not to stop, even though

though they would have liked to initially. Simon, can you see voluntary pre-commitment as a compromise

compromise in this issue? I

don't think it will be nor Nick

Xenophon and Andrew Wilkie.

Up-front, we have done work the Victorian hotels association and Clubs Australia in

in the past. If I comment on

the detail of the policy,

people will say I am talking my

book. The politics in the parliament is complex. We

certainly don't know how a number of the Independents will vote. Tony Windsor and Rob Oakeshott are still very much

in doubt, in terms of this. I also

also think that the approach

that the Coalition is taking at

the moment is really antagonise

ing, in particular, Andrew Wilkie.

Wilkie. I know a couple of months around Canberra pedalling the

fact they thought they could

use this issue to bring use this issue to bring the

Government down. The Government down. The tactics

they have been doing are

showing they don't think at the

end of the day it is an issue

to change the to change the Government. There

is a lot of discussion going on

that this is causing far that this is causing far more

grief in Labor electorates than

it is in Coalition electorates and

and there are a lot of labor

backbenchers who are more nervous about this legislation than they were at the carbon tax. There is a degree tax. There is a degree to which

that is true. But there is a

might be Coalition members considering crossing the

in this debate as well. The

politics behind the scenes is

very complex on both sides. It is going to be

debate to watch. The key

that has occurred over the last few weeks is Tony Abbott has

given up this being a game changer

changer as far as Government is concerned and he area rather playing that electoral politics now for all it is worth. If Wilkie doesn't get it

does he switch support or

withdraw support? That is ultimately a matter for to say what he's going to do. I

think Tony's making it harder for him to consider that

option. Next up on The Drum,

what it is like to what it is like to go inside

the world of bikie gangs. We

talk to author talk to author and journalist

Adam Shand. The leader of the Comancheros motorcycle gang was convicted

today over a fatal brawl at

Sydney Airport two years ago. A

jury found Mick Hawi guilty of murdering Angel associate Anthony Zervas.

Our guest tonight has Our guest tonight has spent years inside the bikie community, journalist Shand

community, journalist Adam Shand travelled with gangs on

the road and hung out in their club houses trying to work what drives men to join these secretive and feared groups. He's written a book called 'Outlaws' and he joins us now

in the studio. Adam, welcome to 'Outlaws' and

The Drum. First of all, on Mick

Hawi's conviction, it is hardly

successive policing. What do

you make of the verdicts in the

end and what it will do to the

image of There is lots of reasonable

doubt. The jury was doubt. The jury was deadlocked and it was ordered to make and it was ordered to make a

majority verdict and so forth.

There will be an appeal on this. It will go to that stage. Some have beep found innocent

and Hawi was found guilty.

There is no consistency in There is no consistency in the

verdicts. Where does it put

bikie gangs in the public's

eye? It was a culmination of eye? It was a culmination of a

whole range of pressures that were building between the

clubs. It is more to do with

the response from the Government. Premier Nathan used that incident to ban all

bikies. They said they'll bring in anti-association laws

in anti-association laws and break up the clubs and so

forth. Nothing in the forth. Nothing in the laws

would have addressed that issue

on that day. It is more about

airport security and policing

rather than anything to do with bikie

bikie clubs per se. You have spent a lot of time in the book talking about the kinds - you

address it as a moral panic to

some extent, particularly in SA

against motorcycle gangs against motorcycle gangs but in general, around authorities have law enforcement

authorities succeeded or not in

taking on bikie gangs? They

haven't succeeded. It is the

presence of this group that

doesn't conform to

wants to have its own rules and live separate of the society.

It presents an intolerable

threat to the law and

the maintenance of law and

order and the control in order and the control in the

community. That is what

represents the greatest threat. They're always trying They're always trying to infiltrate the clubs and they do it regularly but find much of significance. The bikie empire somehow eludes them and we have the stories them and we have the stories of

the bikies being too smart and

clever. You have infiltrated

the outside gangs. How does a

nrn your position go about

doing that? You say I am going

to listen to what you have to

say and a lot of the stories in the media have been the media have been written

from a distance speaking only

to police sources or

politicians and there has politicians and there has been a reluctance of journalists to

engage with what they really are and they pedal this myth. The actual reality is mundane.

You have some people in there who have serious criminal

records and some who have got

no records and some people who have records that go have records that go back a long way and their behaviour stops

stops when they join the club.

There is a pro social function for the bikie clubs but the

media is not prepared to see

that. The original type for Australian bikie culture was

probably set down in the 1974

movie Stone. Let's look at a bit bit of the

movie. They live in a

fortress by the sea. Vietnam

veterans. They have their own style of life. Their own rules, their own religion.

I would suggest a fair bit

has changed since those days of

a free wheeling edge of the law

bikie gangs, a lot of small independent gangs. half decades since then?

Society has changed. They were

a genuine culture back then and there

there are elements of that. We

have been so incredibly overgoverned in this country.

There are so many rules and laws and so forth and people are becoming resentful about

this. They want those moments

of decision and dilemma in

their lives where they make up their lives where they make up their own minds their own minds about what they're going to do. The bikie

club presents that to people, they they can be part of a democracy where they're always guaranteed

a say, they don't always get

their way but they can be in there. Time is tolerated, you don't

don't judge your fellow man, as

long as he follows the rules in

the club house, you're OK. You

said in those days there were scores of independent scores of independent gangs.

What has happened to the number

of people in outlaw motorcycle

gangs and what has happened to

the number of gangs? Which are

the big ones now? There has

been a lot of patching over.

The bigger clubs have absorbed

force. You have less clubs. It is interesting because there's

always this sort of argument

that the bikie clubs are about

to take over and they'll swell

in numbers and move into a

neighbourhood near you and we

have ridiculous scenarios

played out that never play out.

They make grate headlines. The interesting thing is the whole

fear campaign and the hysteria

in the media has made it more

attractive for young people. 10

or so years ago they were in

age, the older guys in the age, the older guys in the club houses who had been there for

years. Now you have a younger

crew of people, because they

have ma been made to be sexy again. It is fashionable. Are

you suggesting that some of the

bigger gangs are not involved

in widespread distribution in widespread distribution of

narcotics and money laundering

and some other things that have

been thrown at them? The

central premises is the clubs

have been set up for organised crime. There are have criminal records and who

are involved in crime. I am yet

to see any club - and it has

not been proved anywhere so far

around the world - that there

is a club that is purely set up

for the purposes

for the purposes of organised

crime. I spent seven or eight years covering the Melbourne

gang land war and I saw how

Karl Williams' gang worked and Tony Mokbel and there was a

strict hierarchy. There was no votes

votes or choice, you did what

you were told or you didn't get cut

cut in for the money. Clubs cut in for the money. Clubs are a different kettle of altogether. They will tolerate the criminals in their ranks. As long

As long as you don't affect As long as you don't affect the

club or put it on me, you can do what you want. distinction there and I had distinction there and I had a

look at the thing over the five

years I was covering this and I

tried it match the rhetoric

with what happened in the

courts and you don't see the convictions. The greatest conviction from organised crime

came from the assistant

director of the NSW crime

commission Mark Standon who was done done for 200kg pseudoephedrine. That effects the fabric of society. Most of

the individuals pose no the individuals pose no threat

other than through the super heated atmosphere of the media. Then what caused the

incident at the airport? What

was - that was clearly the

rivalry, as it is is reported,

the rivalry between the two

clubs caused that incident to

occur. What is the rooilery all about, what are they about, what are they fighting over? Every club, it seems, believes they're the believes they're the most staunch and righteous of all the clubs. the clubs. It is often put down that all the disputes must that all the disputes must come back to drugs and battle for

turf and so forth. The facts in

the court don't bear that out.

Mostly it is about acts of disrespect to another club's

colours or their credo and that is where it stems from. Was that the reason for that the reason for the

massacre at Milpera? That was

a scichl between two groups. They split in two, one went

with Jock Ross and the other

went with the other group and

there was an inevitable collision. It wasn't over drugs or crime, it was over

identity. Do you think you

might just not have seen this?

I could imagine you could spend

time with the Mafia and go to a

lot of terrific family functions and see their

lifestyle but not necessarily

be privy to what goes on

beneath the surface? Is it possible that's what happened

with your look at the bikies? that clever that we have all

the resources and powers to tap phones or bursts into phones or bursts into peoples'

homes and we can't find what

they're up to? I find homes being attracted to clubs with a criminal intent who don't have

an attraction to the culture of motor cycles, does that exist?

It does happen but I think these

these guys blow in and out of

the scene. What we have seen in

the last few years is the clubs

getting together and, through

the united we have seen set up around the country, there's been talk about values and virtues and

stuff. There is a reassertion

of the old school at the moment. The fellowship of moment. The fellowship of the

bike kind of thing. If you're

not into motor cycles - What do

they think of the new bikies they think of the new bikies

driving around in four wheel

drives? Every club has drives? Every club has its issues with that. They can

accommodate it, some of them,

others can't. There is going on. Even things like drug

use, it is always said that the bikies are behind the

manufacture of speed and ice

and so forth. I know of at

least one club that is urine testing the members to make

sure they're not on ice because

it is such a destructive

drug. Which club is that? The

gypsy jokers in Adelaide. They're not shrinking very lets

but they see, like the rest of

society that that drug is a

terrible blight. Are the numbers on the rise in outlaw motorcycle gangs? think so. There is always that

fear story that - I think there's

there's been normal there's been normal attrition in recent times. Some clubs

have expanded and some of protracted. We're looking at 3,500 or 4,000 3,500 or 4,000 people across

the country. People say that

is PR and they want to put a

gloss on the criminal

activities but when you talk to

the guys, their hatred of the guys, their hatred of child

abuse and neglect is so that they want to express to

society their view on that society their view on that and

a lot of them have come from

pretty - It is good PR at the same time. same time. Adam Shand, thanks for joining us. The for joining us. The Republican presidential race is running into trouble this week with the

campaigns of two candidates of

imploding. First allegations of

two sexual harassment in Herman

Cain's past. Now, top contender

Rick Perry has become fodder

for US comedy shows of a of a rambling speech he gave at

a fundraiser in New Hampshire

went viral. This is such a cool state, come on, live free or

die. You gotta love that,

right? APPLAUSE I come from right? APPLAUSE I come from a

state where they had this place called the Alimo and they

declare victory or death. It is

live free or die. Bring it. Kerry happening to the Republican party's image management? I

watched some of that on YouTube today and was killing myself

laughing. Where were his minders, someone saying to him

"Keep it short" and yanking him

off. It was funny if you

watched it. Is it fatal to him?

It is certainly going to damage

him but then there is Cain's

problem. He had the charges of

sexual harassment and then he couldn't remember with whether he had he had them. Was he hammered? Who can say. If he was

hammered, so what at the end hammered, so what at the end of the day. He was normal and

human and funny and these are

politics. Has it hurt him in

the polls? He is actually hurting in the polls already. If you look at the numbers at

the moment he area not the lead

candidate in Texas. Herman Cain

is ahead of him slightly and in

most states he's only most states he's only polling

10%. The lead candidate is in 10%. The lead candidate is up in the high

in open on who is going to lead them hope. Thanks to Kerry

Chikarovski, James Carleton and Simon Banks. You can check out

the web site at

drum. We will see you tomorrow

afternoon. That is all we have time for. Closed Captions by CSI.