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(generated from captions) a sense, shoving against the wheel? I mean, why are you always, in Ever since I could talk, I was standing up for something. my mother said

Either myself or my little brother.

you know, My uncles in the bush said, for student rights, "You're always standing up down there at university?" what are you all doing politicised at all. But I wasn't really to set the world right? Have you always wanted No. No, I haven't. and do well and work hard I thought you had to be a good girl when I was in primary school and I worked like a dog

I wasn't going to do that and then decided because it made you very unpopular wasn't the best thing in the world. and being top of the class we'll come to that perhaps later on. You had time to be a bad girl too, of Tricia Caswell. Let's have a look at the early days

NOSTALGIC MUSIC in 1948. That was a big year. TRICIA: I was born in Brisbane workers got the 40-hour week. It was the year that Australian later set up his own small business. My dad was a typewriter mechanic who deep north, from Charters Towers, My mum was a girl from the ever since she was 12. who served in the family shop in their politics. They were both very conservative

of five children. I was the second youngest We lived in, what was then, of Brisbane, was the Grange. a working class northern suburb from the tram terminus Our place was a hike up the hill along unsealed streets. sprawling weatherboard town then. Brisbane was a very big, and unkempt. It always felt a bit run-down But it was always easy and generous. for me. Primary school was not a happy time I was Miss Goody-two-shoes. Very anxious to be the best, very anxious to do the right thing. It was lonely.

was going to be different. So I decided that high school Kelvin Grove State High School. So, off I went to This was much to my mother's horror. school or to St Margaret's. She wanted me to go to grammar Kelvin Grove with my closest mates." "No way," I said. "I'm going off to how to stand up for myself So, I guess I always knew if it really was warranted. and probably for others field service scholarship. In 1965, I won an American I went to Cleveland, Ohio. in the middle of America. Right smack bang like that film 'American Graffiti'. Life in America for me was there were convertibles, There were sexy footballers, we had meals four times a day. there were drive-ins,

And the cafes were open at 2:00am. with social revolution. It was just before America exploded I lived in Lakewood in Cleveland. It was an all-white suburb.

the 'smoke' moving in, People talked about blacks were becoming middle class and really what they meant was the and might invade their suburbs. I felt like things had to change. So I was pretty miffed by that and After my year in Cleveland, Ohio, Queensland doing an Arts degree. I was back at the University of things, met a whole lot of people, I went away, learnt a whole lot of and came back lived a very different sort of life that I didn't really fit in. and there it was again - from a working-class background So maybe it was because I came in Brisbane, were middle class. and my friends in the United States And maybe I missed all that. Then Christopher came to my rescue. a Prince Charming. He was pretty much supportive, concerned. Tall, good looking, we got married. So, a year or so later, he was an agricultural scientist We went to Darwin where and, I guess, started a new life. did you feel different? Tricia, back in those early days,

Did you feel isolated? and there were tons of kids around, I had lots of neighbourhood mates had big families, and of course everyone but I did feel different. I felt that I could, sort of, as they appeared on the surface see that things weren't exactly what motivated people and I always felt that I could tell ahead of them telling me themselves. slightly different. So, yeah, I always felt that didn't seem to be the same I always had aspirations as those around me. How were they different? for example. Well, I loved classical music, Though I knew nothing about it music in the house. and we didn't have any classical able to understand music, I felt that you needed to be understand the arts, to feel like this. but I had no reason was quite musical I mean my mother actually as many people in those days did, and we had a pianola, in the house, but we had very few books until I was much older. no really sophisticated discussions that I aspired to things So, somehow I did feel that weren't around me, exactly what that meant. but I couldn't have told you So, what was the big change? field student on a field scholarship? Was it going to America as a

And going to Cleveland, Ohio, from Brisbane, Queensland. which is a world away that changed my life, for sure. It was one of the things It made me a public speaker. to Art of Speech since I was five Mind you, my mother had sent me and sisters had learnt the piano and said that my brothers and not kept it up.

for not keeping it up. They were very naughty children

Art of Speech So I was going to learn could I? and I couldn't give that up, speaker and to be able to say things So I had learnt to be a public and to have opinions publicly. when I came back. But it took some time in Brisbane. I didn't really get politicised Let's stay with the US for a moment years after Kennedy's assassinated because you were there a couple of and Martin Luther King... Before Martin Luther King. 'I have a dream' speech. A few years after his in the face in the United States. Race was a very big issue. Hit you under the surface still Look, it was sort of an all-white suburb but because I lived in to have boyfriends who were black and some of my girlfriends wanted it came to me really. then that's how that emerged out of, And then the discussion that's not acceptable?" "Well, how come knew about race relations Mind you, not that I sort of in any sophisticated way in Queensland and coming from a family that had people on the land. They weren't exactly progressive on some of these issues, Peter.

So when you came back to Queensland, back to the University of Queensland, how did life appear in Queensland versus what you'd just experienced in the US? Well, I was beside myself to make sure I could get through my exams. I didn't really understand what you had to do at university so I really wasn't in the marches and the kind of the uprisings that had started around that time at university. Around Vietnam? Yeah, around Vietnam. And then I left to go to Darwin so I was really kind of quite apart from student life. What about the search? What was going on?

What were you really looking for? Because you became a teacher but you say yourself you weren't a very good one. Well, I learnt to become a good teacher. I was in the end. At the beginning I really, really didn't know how to teach and I had 60 kids in a class. So I taught myself how to teach and at the end I loved it.

After five years I learnt how to teach and was a good teacher for five years. Did you think that's what you wanted to do in life? No. What did you think? Well, I thought I wanted to be a vet for a long time. And I was talked out of that by uncles who said I'd have to deliver calves up the paddock, "That was no life for a girl, was it?" they said to mother. Then I wanted to be an actor and everyone said, if you want to be unemployed, go ahead, sweetheart. So, I had those notions but they weren't really about being remembered they were about what would make me feel good. I did like doing tasks and finishing them

and I was a bit of a perfectionist, I suppose.

If I had an assignment it had to be perfect

or you had to redo it and redo it. So I liked things that were ordered and had results on the ground. But I really didn't know about aspirations and I never had a plan, I never had a plan for what I wanted to be. You did throw yourself into acting and you lived in Darwin and Perth for a time and you were right into it.

What do you take from it? I was, I loved it actually. I love Shakespeare, I loved directing, I loved acting. I loved making the costumes, all the things you did when you're in amateur theatre groups like Darwin started out to be. It's now a professional group in Darwin. And then I did more semi-professional work in WA, in Western Australia. But I did at the end of that find that I didn't think that's what I wanted to do. So in Perth I actually made a decision that I wanted to be a really good teacher. And from good teacher you ultimately get dragged into the union movement. Let's have a look at that. TRICIA: On a rare day that I was away from Preston TAFE College I was voted in as the elected rep of the then Technical Teachers Association of Victoria, and was mortified when they told me. But I thought if I say no, it will be a big black mark against all women in the universe, therefore I will have to do it. So, of course, I accepted with good grace. I found it fairly easy to do the job. I had no idea that I could do this kind of stuff. I had no idea that there were such things as negotiators and political advocates and leaders of unions in a way. I really didn't understand that culture or history at all. It was very tough times but it was also good times. It was very easy to run fabulous campaigns because you had so many activists. THE STRAWB'S 'PART OF THE UNION' PLAYS It was, after all, the highly politicised times of the later '70s

and the early '80s. SONG: # And I always get my way # If I strike for higher pay... # We've had equal pay legislation since the early '70s but on average, women in this country still only earn 65% of what men earn. I think that's pretty sad. I think my biggest contribution to the trade union movement was really encouraging women to be part of the leadership and changing cultures so that women were understood and recognised. # Oh, you don't get me I'm part of the union... # Unions were still very blokey. Independent women like me were welcome for their skills but rarely part of the inner circle. It made if very clear to me that lots of people in the trade union movement were never going to be interested in rewarding hard work, talent and achievements. And that I guess I became a bit disillusioned. But I also feel as though it's a bit naive

to assume that in very powerful politics that you are going to be rewarded automatically for your hard work and achievements. # ..Till the day I die. # It's all very well for the Prime Minister to talk about forests being devastated in the Pacific but let's also talk about the devastation of forests right here in Australia. CHEERING From the very start I was determined that the Australian Conservation Foundation

would be on everyone's lips in Australia. That it had to have a really high profile for everybody, mainstreaming its agenda. I was an activist from the trade union movement and I guess I bought my activism to ACF as well. So I was willing to be out in the forests, if that's what it took. If the only way you're going to be heard is be arrested, well, you do it. It's no fun being arrested. I didn't like it one bit.

But it certainly focused attention, it certainly made things happen. I guess I think that's what good leaders have to do. Sustainability became my focus in my later days at ACF because I couldn't work out how we were going to solve planetary problems,

problems of the environment, without looking at community, at economy, what became the triple bottom line. Back in the union days you sounded like you were almost dragged into it against your will. Well, I was away one Friday and I came to work on Monday

and was all of a sudden a unionist. Like my mother always said to me you have to do things properly and you have to do what you think is right. And so I learnt how to be a unionist, a bit self-taught. Like I taught myself how to teach, I taught myself to be a unionist. So, was it the injustice that existed that drew you into it? I mean what actually gave you the motivation to go that way? I think it was because I did stand up for things and I began to understand what politics was about when I came to Melbourne in 1974. So, I had a framework and I did become, yeah, really politicised. Now, there's a natural amalgam there between being in the union movement and also the Labor Party, and that obviously was a career path possibility for you to actually make a transfer into Labor politics. Certainly politics was one of the possibilities. But, look, it was never my actual aspiration. I had a fantastic career in the trade union movement, I did all of the things that all trade union leaders get to do in terms of negotiations and influencing policy.

So I didn't have a particular end game I can tell you. Environmentalism and unionism doesn't... They're not necessarily comfortable bedfellows at all. They're very difficult to put together actually. You can put them together in theory but putting them together in practice is part of the big challenge. And maybe that's really what I'd like to be doing and that's what I hope I can do by focusing on sustainability rather than just environmental protection. Let's go back to those days in the union movement, I mean, it's a boys' club, isn't it? We saw it. You see the pictures of it, it's run by men.

When I was first in the teacher unions, even in the teacher unions where most of the members are women,

it was all men, except for myself, in Victoria. But it didn't stay that way. Things have changed. Women have really started to make a difference. Did it drive you up the wall? Not really. One of the things which comes through quite strongly

is your own sense of identity as a woman and feminism. Yeah, sure. But no, it didn't really drive me up the wall. Maybe that's why... I mean I'm in a very blokey industry now in the forest industries and many of the unions that I looked after at Trades Hall were all male, literally nearly all... yes, literally all male. But it didn't... I was brought up, I mean, I went to work with my father, I worked in his factory on the lathes... Maybe I was treated a bit like a boy when I was growing up, I'm thinking about that as you speak. But it didn't worry me that I was working with lots of men.

I loved it when more women came into the scene. And I always had very, very strong women friends in the background who did give me fantastic advice about how to go forward. You might have seen that you had been working on environmental issues a lot but the Green movement was very suspicious of you, wasn't it? The Green movement really didn't ever think I was part of the Green movement per se. And maybe that's right. Maybe my independence, thinking across these sort of sectors means that I'm a bit apart from all of that. I assume that you should negotiate deals,

you could get the very best deal for the environment you could. So rather than being black and white about it or green and white about it, if you like, that either you're an environmentalist or a developer. I started to think that you had to do a lot of transforming, you had to work with people that you mightn't feel comfortable with

but unless they changed, unless governments changed, unless industry players changed, we had no hope of saving the planet. I think of anybody in a job, This is a tough question or conservation became greener do you think the country because of your time there? I don't know. to think that it was, you know, I don't think I'm vain enough

going to be so influenced by me. mainstream it a bit I'm hoping that I helped to many more people. in terms of it being more acceptable itself, that it reached other voices Rather than it being greener in would have said, and was heard by people who normally that, wouldn't they?" "Oh, my God, the greenies would say way beyond that Now I think we've just got to get the time to spend because we don't have about green issues. tutoring generation after generation those issues. We've got to mainstream and went to the other side, Well, you jumped the Grand Canyon let's have a look at this. which we'll come to now, my work, I guess. TRICIA: My life is pretty much at 4:00am. Sometimes I'm in my office Sometimes I work seven days. But I do it because I love it, that I can contribute. I do it because I really feel strange idea of sustainability. Specially around this, kind of, is going to have to happen, To lead the change that I think

boardrooms of the rich and famous, I'm going to have to be in the that they're part of the process, and make them understand part of the change. to be out in the field And I'm also going to have where the work's really done. with those who count, Association of Forest Industries. I'm the CEO of the Victorian

harvesting and sawmilling industries That's the native timber in Victoria. what's an old greenie like you Lots of my friends have said to me

doing in a place like that? all of us have got to change. My answer simply is that in some instances, like this one, Industries who've been seen

as part of the environmental problem the environmental solution. are also part of And I want to prove that to make that happen. and I want to help lead the industry And the thing that interests me, that we've done subsequently, and I can report some extra work of the value of the forest is this whole question ecological services... as a provider of we would set up a community council When I came to VAFI we decided that may not know much about the industry where lots of people who may or ask us the tough questions, help us think through our problems, critical advice. and give us good, honest, of that analysis... So, we need a lot Well, you can't at the moment. And can you? Kyoto, of course... Ever since I could think, in the big picture. The big issues. I've always been interested of the day that affect everybody. The moral and ethical issues a Chardonnay socialist, You can't just be it's not where I come from. I like to get things done I've actually made a difference. and be proud that she's 18. I have a daughter, Siobhan, She's terrific. We are very close. next weekend Are you going to come down the coast or what are you doing next week? Siobhan's very essential to me. a kind of normality in one way. I guess she represents And also she represents the future. conscious that whatever we do today That it makes me really very and for Siobhan's kids. has real implications for tomorrow as I can for as long as I can. I want to stay as productive that I love to do. I want to do things I've got plans And for the first time in my life with travel and my daughter. that kind of, I guess, marry my work I'll want to help her with those. If she has children in just fading away But I have no interest that I feel I can contribute. from the kind of stuff to join the former enemy? So, what made you cross the line your old friends must have said, Because inevitably a lot of well, you've sold out.

or they couldn't understand it. Well, I've sold out, rang me up and said, Surprisingly, Peter, numbers of them I can help. "Look, if there's some way for the world "I wouldn't want to do it and I can help, "but if you're going to do it "then I'm in there for you." this background hum of people So I've always had my eccentricity, kind of, who are willing to take well, seriously. do you, what you've done? So you accept that it's eccentric, Well, I guess it's eccentric, around the world who have done this, although there are other people a lot with industry. environmentalists who've worked those industries into the future. And then actually started to lead I can't think of any other issue that so divides Australians, as feelings about forestry. except football maybe, It is a divisive issue. to be intractable, It's almost been seen I decided I'd do it. and maybe that's why this path of grenades and blockades. Because we can't continue down We have to make some peace. how we're going to have We have to work out a sustainable industry ourselves the industry, otherwise we're shipping

the environmental problems, able to deal with them. to countries that are much less than many other countries, I mean, we can do it much better

in terms of sustainable forestry. We want the products. stolen, unsustainable logs? Are we going to just import illegal, What are we going to do?

high conservation forests In Australia, are there that aren't in reserve still? that need to be looked at There are still some places in terms of protection, for sure. there are some forests... But equally, Peter, to the industry you now work for? How easy is it to sell that idea there is one really basic reason Well, it is really hard because why it's hard. Not because they don't understand reason to protect more forest, that in fact there might be some they understand that absolutely. by the way. They are very smart business people, the industry alive for the future, The key question is keeping its potential, so it can really reach using a renewable resource. the answer. Plantations are not really to plantations and regrowth. I was going to come is that enough I mean, those things together,

to actually sustain the demand for various products that we have? No. It's nothing like enough. We've got a trade deficit. Most of the forestry in Victoria is, guess what? It's regrowth. If the community really values old growth so much, to be quite frank, it's not the best timber, it's not the most productive of forests

but we need another resource to replace it. Or the industry will be so tiny that it won't survive. And therefore you will have no local industry and we will be importing stolen timber. Do you feel that you can both be a partisan, because you do work for one side, and they do want you to put their arguments... Can you do both that and reconcile with the other side? Can you mediate between the two sides? Have you been able to bring them together? Yes, I can help with the mediation.

I can't do everything, that's for sure. I can only be part of the process. But I am convinced that there are many people

who can see beyond the grenades and the blockades. There are more than me. You're doing your best to create a balance in the environment, what about a balance in life? Would you say you've handled that well? 'Cause you readily admit, sometimes it's 4:00am starts. It's very early in the morning. It is early in the morning, I'm a Queensland girl, you know, we always got up early. No, I don't think I have handled my life balance terrifically. Sometimes I'm really regretful that I haven't been around... Not too late to address those things though, is it? Oh, I don't know about that really. Might be...(Laughs) You can't change the past but do you want to change the present? One thing I do do these days is that most weekends I go down to my beach house, sometimes just by myself with my dog. And I do very, very little. I think about things but I don't actually do a lot physical work. Where do relationships fit in? I have some very good friends from when I was six years old, both men and women. I have some new friends who are much more able to kind of... We don't have to go through the argument about the blockades and the grenades.

They understand that perfectly. They just want me to get on with doing it well. So, they're very supportive in that way. So, in terms of a partner, I think I'll just take a rest from that for a bit. Why? Well... I've had really tough times in partnerships in the past. And there are very few models, I think, of women who've been independent, had families, and their bloke's been able to tolerate it all. And some of my partners have really, really tried hard, but found it really difficult to do it. With Siobhan's just on the cusp of womanhood there, very beautiful daughter, what sort of world do you want to create for her to the extent that you can influence that? Well, I guess I'm doing what I can to bring some of those forces together.

I've decided that as an environmentalist I was never a planet fetishist

that was just about the magic of the planet... This is, you know, they talk about planet fetishism and that you're obsessed with just keeping the planet pristine or whatever. Well, it's pretty unlikely, isn't it? There's going to be 10 billion people on the planet, so I think I'd have to say I'm a planet manager. And within that you have to manage industry

and industry transformation, you have to manage the way that government see their policy making.

So if I can help bring some of those forces together...

And Siobhan talks about things not unlike this, and I don't know whether it's rubbed off from me or whether it's actually come from her own experience. She's much more practical and ideological. It's a big job. Tricia, we'll let you get back to it. Thanks very much for having me. Thank you. Next week on Talking Heads - Jon English. (Sings) # If I ain't been spending all of my money # Then at least I've been doing my best... # I'll just keep working till I fall over, I suppose. 'Cause I like it. Tomorrow night on 'Second Opinion' - Kahuna massage. Also, clinical depression. Can Iyengar yoga help? And will a therapy based on ancient healing methods help a trauma victim? Closed Captions provided by Captioning and Subtitling International Pty Ltd A