Note: Where available, the PDF/Word icon below is provided to view the complete and fully formatted document
Disclaimer: The Parliamentary Library does not warrant the accuracy of closed captions. These are derived automatically from the broadcaster's signal.
Lateline Business -

View in ParlView

(generated from captions) courage was an inspiration to

many. Sophie Scott reports.

Tracey Bevan was Jane McGrath's

best friend. Today, she

promised to carry on her

legacy. I miss her so much. I

promised her I'd continue her

work, and the McGrath

Foundation in raising funds for

breast cancer nurses. Tracey

Bevan says her friend will be

remembered for setting up the McGrath Foundation to encourage

young women in particular to be

aware of breast cancer. They

need to look after themselves

and be breast aware, because my

friend was 31 years old when

she was diagnosed and 42 when

she passed away. Glenn McGrath

was too distraught to speak.

He released a statement saying

he was devastated.

Glenn McGrath said his wife

would want other cancer

patients to stay strong and

live life to the fullest, as

she did. In the nation's

capital, there were moving

tributes, too. Jane McGrath

was, and will remain a source

of inspiration and hope to all Australians, in particular

those personally affected by

cancer. Jane McGrath remind us

in her life and in her death

that the value of one's life is

not determined by the

adversities that come to you,

but how you choose to deal with

them. Australia's cricketers

will pay their own special

tribute to Jane McGrath in

Wednesday's 1-day international

against the West Indies.

They'll wear pink ribbons and

use pink batting grips to

honour her memory. Jane will be

remembered as a wonderfully

strong and courageous person

with an incredible sense of

humour. Jane McGrath's funeral

will be held on Wednesday in

the same Sydney church where

she was married nine years ago.

In Adelaide, 16 children have

been taken to hospital with

malnutrition or hypothermia,

according to police. Officers

raided two homes in the city's

northern suburbs, finding more than 20 children believed to be

living in squalor. Police made

their move after a 5-year-old

boy was admitted to hospital

with hypothermia. We have some

very gravely ill children and I

am concerned that we could have

had a death in this situation.

Fortunately these children now

appear to be responding to

treatment. But I think it does

raise concerns about how alert

we are about children in our

community. A 28-year-old mother

of seven from Victoria has been charged with criminal neglect

and a number of the children

remain in hospital. Several

have been taken into State

care.

'Lateline Business' coming up

in just a moment. If you'd

like to look back at tonight's

interview with Julie Bishop or

review any of Lateline's

stories or transcripts, you can

visit our website. Now here's

'Lateline Business' with Ali

Moore. Thanks, Tony. Tonight

- market mayhem. It's been a

bad year for investors with

consumer stocks the worst

hit. The market has sort of

built in a lot of bad news and

worked out what is real and

what is not real. Property

problems - Valad downgrades its

profit forecast as the credit

crisis hits home. Our business,

like most in the western economies has been impacted by

subprime and the impacts on the financial markets and the

property markets. And ABC

learn's $1.2 billion debt.

Eddy Groves says he shares the

pain of investors. I felt as

much pain, and that's OK,

because I'm here to make sure

we rebuild that integrity and

I'm going to make sure we

rebuild that price for all of

our investors.

As well tonight we look at

the announcement just a short

time ago that Rio Tinto has won

the biggest ever rise in

contract prices for Australian

the markets where shares iron ore. First, though, to

rebounded from early losses as

investors bought up banking

stocks which were battered

after a big weekend fall on

Wall Street. The All Ords rose

3 points. The ASX200 put on 5

points. In Japan, the Nikkei

fell 0.5%. Hong Kong's Hang

Seng closed flat and in London,

the FTSE has begun the week on

a positive note, rising 1%.

Although Australian shares held

up reasonably well today,

there's increasing signs of

pessimism about the longer term

outlook. The ASX200 has fallen

by 17% since the start of the

year, with consumer

discretionary stocks the

hardest hit. High oil prices,

rising interest rates and a

slowing economy are all taking

their toll on the market, which

has reassumed its downward

slide after a pick-up in April

and May. Andrew Robertson reports.

The market may have lost only a

handful of ponts today, but

behind that number was signs

that an end to the volatility

of the past year is going to be

a long time coming. People are

shell-shocked by petrol and by

interest rates. Hans Kunnen is

head of investment research at

funds manager, Colonial First

State. He believes the

situation on the stock market

today is very different to when

it first began falling last

year. The expectation of

economic growth is a lot lower

than it was initially back then

so, the market has sort of

built in a lot of bad news and

worked out well, what is real

and what is not real. And

what's real is that many people

share the view that the market

won't recover soon - something

that's been reflected in the

share prices of companies who

earn their incomes investing in

the market. Perpetual was the

biggest loser today, down 10%

with other listed fund managers

also suffering big losses. For

the year-to-date it's been a

tale of woe.

Clime Capital chief Roger

Montgomery has no doubt

why. All the ducks are lining

up to suggest that we're in a

period where you are much

better off being in cash.

You're going to get 8% for your

cash. There's no reason to

rush out and find good value

today. It will appear. But 8

and a bit percent on your cash

for very little risk may, in

fact, look very attractive in

the next 6-12 months. With

interest rates so high, it's no

surprise that interest rate sensitive stocks such as banks

have been hit hard this year,

with all four of the majors

taking big hits. Companies which have built their business

on the back of low interest

rates and heavy borrowing are

also being re-rated downwards

with the infrastructure sector

in particular in the spotlight

latest to admit that the model as Transurban becomes the

for now, is broken. Roger

Montgomery believes investors

need to look very carefully at

where dividend payments in the

infrastructure sector are

coming from. If they're paid

out of borrowings they need to

be very, very careful, because

interest rates could go up a

lot higher, and more

importantly, many of the models

that are paying for these

dividends are simply

unsustainable. You can't use

borrowed money. While the high

price of oil has seen oil

producers defy the downward trend on the market, with

shares in Santos ojumping

nearly 50% helped by also

producing much in demand

natural gas, big oil users have

been hammered, with Virgin Blue

down by nearly three-quarters

this year. Toll Holdings shedding nearly half its value.

But oil has the potential to

affect company profits in all

sectorses through higher

distribution costs - something

the ANZ Bank has been

quantifying. Just in the

supermarket and food and

groceries sector, which of

course, affects everybody,

that's translating into a 20%

increase in distribution costs

right across the board. Which

is one reason why Woolworths

hasn't escaped blood-letting on

the market. The combination of

higher interest rates and high

petrol prices is hitting

retailers reliant on

discretionary spending, with

the consumer discretionary

sector the hardest hit on the

market this year. With the end

of the financial year just a

few days away, superannuation

funds are shaping up for their

first 12-month loss in six

years. But agency SuperRatings

says investors need to take a

long-term view. Let's look at

the 5-year numbers. They're up

11%. That in anyone's mind is

a good result and it's actually

better than the average funds

objective which is the CPI but

3.5% per annum. The question

for many is where to find value

on the stock market. Hans

Kunnen believes sectors such as

retailing and banking have been

oversold and he says despite

interest rates and oil,

sharemarket investors shouldn't

lose sight of the strength of

the Australian economy. To the

news out of London now. Rio

Tinto has won an average price

increase of 85% for tiern ore

it sells to China, the largest

rise to date. The announcement

comes after months of difficult

negotiations. For more I'm

joined from Stephen Pope. This

has been a long time coming.

Now it seems it is a whopper of

a price increase and higher

than big competitor

Valad. Earlier in the year

Valad managed to get that deal

65% of their increase.

Normally Rio and BHP would fall

in step with the agreements the

Brazilian rival got. This time

they wanted to find more and

one of those reasons is because

the iron ore, on average s a

better quality from the Pilbara

as against from Brazil and it's

a much nearer locations. The

steel mills would have less

freight charge to consider and

also from the Pilbara it's a

much better and more reliable source. It certainly would seem

that freight argument, the

argument for a freight premium

has been won? Yes, I think so. And I guess that although the

Chinese have sort of made some

posturing and holding out, and

I think we discussed that

before, we got to a situation

where if they didn't agree by

the end of the June suddenly

the steel mills in China would

face up to paying spot prices

which would not be suitable at

all. They had to agree and

agree they have. What does this

mean for Rio's bottom line and

its battle for the takeover bid

for BHP Billiton. Will this

blow on, do you expect now, to

BHP Billiton? I think what

you'll see is BHP don't have

much iron ore the activity from

Rio. They will be a

beneficiary from this type of

deal. They are operating in

the same field in that part of

Australia. They'll be able to

claim they're bringing forth a

similar quality. I don't think

you'll see BHP backing away

from making a bid. They've

always argued they'll put more

cash on the table. Cash is

king in this current

environment. The demand for

commodities are strong and

prophets of doom are wrong. Can

you quantify to any extent what

this will mean bottom line

terms? Well, I think what

you'll see is you'll start

seeing in the region of at

least double digit percentage

increases to the overall

earnings. It's not just the

way the iron ore price also go

up. Other mineral prices are

moving higher as well. Someone

like Rio with a sound balance

mix of profit products they're

suffering will enjoy a 10%

increase minimum on their net

figure. When you look at this

price increase it's not bad for the Australian Government

either, is it? I think overall

you're going to see a heavy

contribution to the tax revenues that the Australian Government get and that's

always helpful. Where you

start seeing slackening off in

the private sector in the

economy maybe it allows the

Government to have a stimulus

package or have direct spending

on Government programs which in difficult situations can

sometimes be a helpful

thing. Another issue of keen

interest to the market we've

got the Fed meeting in the US

this week on interest rates.

To move or not to move? I think

it will be unchanged, we stay

at 2%. We've been seeing the

opportunities in terms of the

Fed fund forecast were floating

around 90% for unchanged, maybe

86% other days. You've been

saying Bernanke making tough

talk they are concerned about

inflation. William Paul can

say all he likes about needing

an immediate rate increase,

Bernanke will not go for an

increase on the 5%. Barometer

numbers are not looking

healthy, I don't think the US

can afford to do that at this

time. Now a quick look at the

major movers on our market

today.

The subprime crisis and the

global credit crunch have taken

their toll on property group,

Valad. Its shares fell nearly

6% today after the real estate

investment trust issued a

profit downgrade. The company

has announced from now on

they'll make payouts to

shareholders from cash earnings

only and won't borrow to pay

distributions. Deisley Coleman

reports. In February, property

group Valad was confident it

would meet growth targets.

Just four months later,

management has cut its

full-year forecast. Our

business, like most in the

western economies, has been

impacted by subprime and the

impacts on the financial

markets and the property

markets in the US and Europe

and Australia. Everyone's been

waiting for these sorgts of

announcements to take place and

one would have expected that

the medicine had been taken a

lot earlier rather than waiting

for the last-minute to actually

come out with the

announcement. Valad says growth

has slowed across all of its

businesses. Full-year earnings

have fallen by 11% from its

earlier prediction of 12.5

cents per share. The impact of

the global credit crunch on

property values has hampered

Valad's ability to sell sates,

which has reduced its earnings.

The company will also hold back

$800 million, which has been

earmarked for property

acquisitions. We thought we'd

be seeing better opportunities

come in during the year and we

made the decision, therefore,

not to make short-term

acquisitions just in order to

meet our earnings and it's much

more important to make good

acquisitions that are going to

provide good returns to

investors. Investors will also

have to adjust to a new

distribution regime. Valad

will make dividend payouts to investors from cash earnings

instead of borrowing to pay

distributions. The move is in

line with other listed trusts

and follows a similar

announcement last week by Toll

Road company Transurban. It's

getting back to a situation

where you should continue to

look at property trusts and

property vehicles in the way

that they were looked at 5-10

years ago, which is rent

collectors paying rent, paying

out the expenses and the rest

is what goes to

unitholders. Valad executive

chairman Stephen Day says while

the company in a good position

to pick up assets in fire

sales, he does not expect

things to be easy. I think it's

going to be tough. Financial

markets have impacted on

property markets to the degree

that yields have shifted out

and ah, and not sure whether

we've seen the end of that at

this stage. So I think it's

going to be a very tough

year. While the prognosis is

not good and Valad's shares

today hit a 2-month low,

rumours are now doing the

rounds that Valad itself could

be a takeover target. Hot on

the heels of the Government's

decision to increase the child

care rebate, ABC Learning

Centres has announced it's

raising child care costs by an

average of 11%. The company

CEO Eddy Groves denies

profiteering saying the move

which standardises fees, is to

cover higher costs. The

Federal Government will lift

the rebate from 30% to 50% in

July. News of higher fees did

little to stem the slide in the

company's share price which

fell a further 9.5%. Eddy

Groves joined me earlier. Eddy

Groves, welcome to Lateline

Business. Thanks, Ali. Why only now have you had the

opportunity to standardise your

fee structure with increases of

11%? What's so particular about

this point in time? Oh, I don't

think there's anything

particular about this point in

time for fee rises. I'll come

back to that. But from a standardisation of fees point

of view, ABC's been on a fairly

heavy growth trajectory for

four years from 2004. We now

have a very stable portfolio

and this is the first

opportunity we've had to be

able to really get a good

handle on the different fees in

the different centres. What

we've tried to do is look at it

on the basis of land value,

average cost of land per

postcode. We've created 24

band of what the fees are

within those bands and what

we've tried to do is get

standardisation for faels. To

what extent is the timing

expected to the Government's

decision to increase the child

care rebate. A decision which

will mean that your price

increases will have less impact

on your customers? This isn't

anything unusual. ABC has been

in the child care sector now

for 20 years and we've always

increased fees on 1 July every

year. Since 1991 the Federal

Government have increased child

care benefit on 1 July, and

it's standard not just ABC but

the sector. Not to this extent,

a 11% increases? I don't think

you should look at it from an 11% point of view. At the end

of the day, ABC is below the

national average based on our

data. If you look at what the

Government has depoersed for in

the May '08 Budget they've

forecast $64.40 per day.

That's based on 11.5 hours per

day. Our fee per day is $62.

We're lower than what the

Budget has forecast a month

ago. We're lower than the

national average within our

sector. We're in a very competitive marketplace as

well. So we're very conscious

of what's happening out

there. So can I take it from

that that while the minister

Julia Gillard says she'll crack

down on any unfair increases

you don't think you'll come

under scrutiny? No, because ABC

believes they're below the

national average. We think

we're lower than most of where

the other part of the sector is

even before they go with their

fee rise. I think we've been open and transparent and I

think we've based it on sound

methodology and that was about

standardisation. What's the fee

increase going to mean to your

bottom line every year? Well, I

won't go into the absolute

details because we haven't gone

out with those kind of numbers

to the marketplace. But what

it does do is offset some of

the increases that the sector

has had over the last two years

which I think people have to be

conscious of. There has been

substantial wage increaseses

and deserved wage increases for

the hard-working early child

care professionals. There are

macro issues - high interest

rates, the cost of fuel, how

that translates to groceries. We provide meals in the

majority of our centres, so

there are increased cost s that

we and all parts of the sector

have had to absorb. Well, this

is obviously a revenue measure.

You've raised some $800 million

from asset sales. I understand

that your debt is sitting

around $1.67 billion. Is that

right, and if it is how does

the repayment schedule look

from here? When you look at

what we've done, we have moved

to sell some assets. We should

have the completion of our

Morgan Stanley sale of 60% of

the US business by 30 June.

We're moving to sell as we've

announced the real estate on our balance sheet as well as

the voucher business in the UK.

All up, there should be a

reduction of about

three-quarters of a

biologicalon dollars. That

will take us to a very

comfortable level. When you

look at our debt at that time

you'll look to $5-6 million

debt. By the time that's completed you're probably

around $1.#2e billion worth of

debt. That will have to be

refinanced when? No, that's the

benefit, we don't have any

refinancing obligations until

13 December, 2010. You also

recently issued new shares to

Morgan Stanley at a 15%

discount. Some analysts are

saying that's a sign of a

repayment problem and a lack of earnings in the business. Are

they fair points? Look, I don't

think so. What we've tried to

do is Morgan Stanley are an

excellent partner. We want to

partner with Morgan Stanly.

We're going to be in a

long-term arrangement with them

in the US for at least three

years. They were interested in

taking some interest in the

parent company and it was an

ongoing discussion. It was

something the board thought was

prudent. We're about reducing

the debt on the balance sheet.

12 months ago the market was solely about gearing your

balance sheet up and having

more debt. 12 months later,

people are not rewarded for

having debt, being a growth

company but being stable. As

one analyst put it, if you want

to dispel the notion you're

short of cash, a steep discount

rather than a writes issue is

not the way to do it. Why the

steep discount if they were so

keen to get a hold? Look, at

the end of the day it was the

market's price is the market

price. So that's where we're

at. The ACCC is taking ABC

learning to court for allegedly

failing to comply with orders

to sell two child care centres

in Western Australia after you

bought the peppercorn child

care group. You say that's not

from lack of trying and that

previous attempts have fallen

through. Why have they fallen

through? I mean, it's difficult

in Geraldton. Unfortunately,

we've had a number of contracts

at the last-minute that haven't

completed for one or another

reason. As we said, for ABC

with 1136 centres it's

certainly our intention to

comply with every request that

the ACCC have asked of us. We

were able to get rid of all of

the other centres but Geraldton

is more isolated and it has

been difficult to find buyers

and unfortunately it's been a

bad run on that and we haven't

been able to complete the

contract. We've had - we've

got a couple of people that are

very close now on signing new

contracts and hopefully we'll

be able to complete those

contracts very shortly. The

ACCC is also alleging that the

businesses have deteriorated.

Have the businesses been

allowed to deteriorate? Well,

we don't think. So at the end

of the day we think we've tried

to comply as best we can with

the ACCC requirements. You'd be

well aware some analysts are

saying this ACCC action is just

another blow to investor

confidence with a number of

people worried about how well

this company is being run at

the moment. What's your answer

to that? I think the company

has gone through challenging

times over the last...

certainly in the last 14 weeks.

It's not a 14 weeks I'd like to

replicate. At the end of the

day we've set out to make sure

that ABC is on a stable

footing. First and former is

that we've tried to degear the

balance sheet. I think we've

done that very effectively.

There is this issue there with

the ACCC which has come up. We've had continual dialogue

with the ACCC over a number of

years and certainly over the

last few months. We're

disappointed we've gone down

this pathway. We'll resolve

those issues, we'll sell those

centres. It's as I said, not

for the lack of trying. From

an overall perspective I think

we're looking forward to, you

know, getting into the first

week of July for ABC and

starting the new financial year

and rebuild investor

confidence. We're not under

any illusion that that's not

going to take a bit of time and

it's going to be runs on the

board. Are you the right person

to rebuild investor

confidence? I think I

absolutely am. At the end of

the day this is something I've

put my heart and soul into for

the last 20 years. It's been

no different in the last 14, 16

weeks. I don't have shares in

the company anymore, a very

small parcel, and I'm a paid

employee. I'm dedicated to

what needs to happen to rebuild

the confidence and there's no

price for integrity. So at the

end of the day, I'm here to

make sure that the ship is

righted and I'm very confident

that we can do that. Well,

you've got a refreshed board, a

new chairman, some new

directors, do you have the full

and unqualified support of the

board? I do. How long is your

CEO contract for? My CEO

contract runs for another

year. And you'll be seeking

another term after that? I

would be. What do you say to

people who argue that those who

make and build a business are

not the right wunds to keep

running it? Oh, I think that's

a fairly general statement. At

the end of the day, for me,

it's always been about

passionate for building

something. I think we've done

a great job. I don't think

people should forget what ABC's

actually done. Besides having

the number of centres we've

done, we've invested $400

million into remodeling and

renovation and new children's

equipment. We're the only

company that has an agreement

with the unions for all of our

staff and through that, every

single one of our staff receive

free study if they want it.

They can start with no

qualification and move all the

way to Batchelor of Education.

I think that's very powerful.

Putting aside the public

company aspects we've done a

great thing for Australia and

the children and the families. Those who have had

faith in you and invested in

you are deeply deeply under

water? Well, depends on when

they purchased, but at the end

of the day it's something that

I'm disappointed with as well.

And I think that I'm in line

shareholders. At the end of with every one of those other

the day, I supported the share

price at a very high price

upwards of $6.90, $7 when I was

sold it was about $1.47 on

average. At the end of the

day, I felt as much pain.

That's OK, I'm here do make

sure we rebuild that integrity

and for all of those investors

that believed in us. Eddy

Groves, many thanks for talking

to Lateline Business. Thanks,

Ali. Western Australia's gas

crisis will continue until the

end of the year, with the

economic fallout now expected

to reach billions of dollars.

Last month's blast at a

pipeline at Apache Energy's

offshore operation in the

north-west shut off a third of

the State's gas. Apache says

partial gas supplies will be

available in August but the

full amount won't be back until

December. We're working hard to

get the additional gas back

into the market. It looks like

now it will be December. We're

going to try to get it in

sooner if at all

possible. Householders in the

State are urged to halve gas

use to reduce the impact on

economy. The Business Lobby

rationed if householders don't says gas supply should be

cooperate. Now a look at

tomorrow's business diary.

Let's look at what's making

news in the business sections

of tomorrow's papers.

That's all for tonight. The

Dow has opened up 22 points,

and the FTSE is trading up

0.7%. If you want to take a

look at any part of tonight's

program, you can visit our

website. You can watch the

whole show online or download

it as a vodcast. We'd love to

get your feedback. I'm Ali Moore, goodnight.

Closed Captions by CSI

in October '39. I emigrated to America like myself to leave, Germany permitted people provided you didn't have very much. my mother had $3 and I had $3. We arrived in New York with $3 - America was a fantasy at that point, which turned out to be a reality. of young men in World War II - This is the story of a group many of them Jewish-German refugees. and found a new home in America. They escaped the Nazis and the psychology of the enemy They knew the language better than anybody else. Fighting fascism was their goal. In Camp Ritchie, Maryland, their own kind of war. they prepared for THEME MUSIC Four days after Pearl Harbor, on the United States. Germany declared war Among the men drafted into service

were many refugees from Europe. they were considered security risks. In the beginning, Being that I was an enemy alien with a weapon, and they didn't trust me into Camp Grant, Illinois, they put me for the medical corps. which is the basic training to the medics there - Now, I make no aspersions they're the bravest of the brave. a weapon to help a fallen comrade. They go under fire without But if I was going to fight a war, I wanted a weapon. not with a syringe. I wanted to kill Nazis, So, after my basic training,

to my company commander I was called "Sir, Private Spear reporting." and I said, pack your duffel bag - And he said to me, "Private Spear, "you're shipping out." And the next day I found myself in Camp Ritchie, Maryland, military intelligence training centre. Camp Ritchie was founded by the Maryland National Guard. In 1942, the US army took over and replaced the tents with permanent buildings. The remote location seemed ideal for the task - a school for intelligence and psychological warfare. Somebody in the war department had realised that enemy aliens might be quite useful in this war. in 1942 I, at first, tried to enlist of the Navy. in the Intelligence Service

would take native-born Americans. And they told me that they only A couple of months later, I was inducted into the US army at Camp Barkeley, Texas, and, after my basic training intelligence training centre I was transferred to the US military at Camp Ritchie, Maryland.

oh, absolutely. I was going to be part of this war - at what happened to Europe.

at what happened to Jews. I felt rage Europe was raped well-disciplined, by a very powerful, well-oiled military machine. TRAIN PA ANNOUNCEMENT Freedom was at stake, not just in Europe, but worldwide, and we worked harder, and in the field, both in Camp Ritchie than anyone could have driven us It was self-propelled energy. TRAIN PA ANNOUNCEMENT

his brother and sister. Guys's parents, to the United States - His family could only send one member the oldest son. Guy was 15 years old when he came to America in 1937. (Laughs) How are you? Pretty damn well. Guy and Fred were trained as IPWs - interrogators of prisoners of war. They became a team and stayed together until the end of the war. The German soldiers were scared to death of the Russians. To be in jail - in Russian captivity. And that's when we started to play with that... Yes. Intellectually play with that. How can we use that to ever greater advantage? The fear of Russia. The fear of possibly being sent to Russia. And, then, we came up with the idea that I would dress in a Russian uniform

and I put myself in a tent with a kind of caption 'Commissar Krukov, liaison officer'. With a picture of Joe Stalin in the back, which we had gotten somehow, and Johnny Curzners wrote - "Dedicated to my friend Commissar Krukov, Joe Stalin." Exactly. Right. Camp Ritchie was an ideal choice. Located in the Blue Ridge Mountains, it was close to Washington, but, at the same time, well-protected against the curiosity of possible German spies. The camp was in...a somewhat bucolic setting. It reminded me of the Marienbad Karlsbad area. It had, to some extent, a resort quality. Victor, born 1923, spent the first ten years of his life in Germany. His family had escaped the revolution in Russia. When Hitler came into the the power, the family moved again - to France. French became Victor's language. Around me, in this typically American, almost hillbilly country, I only heard foreign accents and I heard foreign languages. HANS SPEAR: They realised that we were more valuable than the average soldier. Now, mind you, my life is no more important than anybody else's life, but you can teach somebody in six months how to handle a machine gun or throw a hand grenade, but you cannot teach anybody in six months to be fluent in a language in order to interrogate anybody. Most of them looked very un-military. (Laughs) They had slight bellies and people who had no military instincts, basically, were not fighters, basically. Ah, no. Ingenuity and imagination played a great part in their type of war. Germany had not allowed them to stay. Now, Ritchie became a haven