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The basic tenants of Islam and the basic tenants of western Liberal democracies are incompatible.

Tonight, the controversial human rights campaigner who argues Islam and democracy can't coexist.

Islam refuses to recognise the separation of church and state. Women are subordinate. Life is not
valued as much is in the Western Liberal societies.

We call her bull terrier. She's like a bull terrier.

And the teen-aged sprint sensation poised to take on had world.

I want to go to the Olympics. That's it. ad world. I want to go to the Olympics. That's it. world.
I want to go to the Olympics. That's it. the world. I want to go to the Olympics. That's it.

Kerry O'Brien interviews anti-Islamic author

Kerry O'Brien interviews anti-Islamic author

Reporter: Kerry O'Brien

KERRY O'BRIEN: When Dutch filmmaker Theo Van Gogh was murdered by an Islamist in Amsterdam in 2004
for directing a film called Submission, that was highly critical of violence against Muslim women,
the killer staked a death threat to the film's author, Ayaam Hirsi Ali through Van Gogh's heart.
Hirsi Ali was a Somalian refugee who fled to the Netherlands 14 years ago to escape an arranged
Muslim marriage. She became a passionate activist against Islam's perceived discrimination against
women and one of Europe's most controversial political figures, serving briefly in the Dutch
Parliament before being forced to resign for allegedly lying to get asylum.

She continues to attract the ire of many Muslims and other critics in the west for continuing to
revile her religion from her base at a conservative Washington think tank, arguing that Islam is
simply not compatible with liberal democracies. Hirsi Ali has previously written a book depicting
women in Islam as caged virgins and will have a second book on her own life, called Infidel, which
will be published next month. She has previously been named one of Time Magazine's 100 most
influential people and has just received the Martin Luther King Jr award for her activism. I spoke
with Hirsi Ali today from New York.

KERRY O'BRIEN: Ajaan Hirsi Ali, I guess this is a tough question to answer in a few short
sentences. but how do you summarise your journey from fervent Muslim supporter to anti-Islam
campaigner?

AJAAN HIRSI ALI: In one sentence, I would say it's a journey in time. It's a journey from a
pre-modern society to a very modern society. From a tribal society to a nation state which believes
in citizens - which has citizens. So that's how, I mean, in a very short way that's how I would
describe it. And it's also a journey to enlightenment.

KERRY O'BRIEN: When you arrived in the Netherlands, what was it that shocked you in to taking up
this campaign against Islam?

KERRY O'BRIEN: Most Muslim women in the Netherlands, whether they're from Turkey or Morocco or
Somalia or Afghanistan, were used to some form of oppression. Of course, it differs from family to
family and it differs from people who live in cities to people who live in rural areas, but it was
as if that was something that we were used to. As an interpreter, I translated for women who would
be rescued from abuse and who would go back to their abusive husbands saying, "I have to obey him
because that's what God wants me to do." What I thought was contradictory was the free society
which I had come to live in the Netherlands where we were all equal before the law, but in these
ghettos where mainly nominated by Muslims, women and girls could be abused and the minority
communities could get away with that, with the argument it was done in the name of their culture or
religion and the liberal society and the agents of the liberal society thought that, that being
their culture, they had to leave them alone or look the other way.

KERRY O'BRIEN: You recently agreed with Tony Blair that the Muslim veil is a mark of separation,
but if a Muslim woman wants to wear the veil in a society that's supposed to be tolerant, why
shouldn't she?

AJAAN HIRSI ALI: That's exactly what I argue. I say, if it's voluntary, a Muslim woman who chooses
to wear the veil can wear it and she should not be in any way prevented from wearing the veil. What
I tried to do was also explain what the veil symbolises and I said, actually, we should not be
debating the clothe itself but what it stands for, the sexual morality and based on morality that
says men cannot restrain themselves sexually. They are like wild dogs, like the imam in your
country said, and we women are like pieces of tempting meat and if we do not want to put society
into chaos, then we should ideally stay behind closed doors and if it's necessary for us to go
outside of the house, then we need to veil ourselves. And I wanted to go into debate with the women
who are veiling themselves voluntarily and say, first of all, there are women who are being forced
into the veil and I wanted to know their opinion on that, and next, based on their sexual morality,
a woman who veils herself of her own free will, is actually wearing a banner telling every man that
he is a potential rapist and he is incapable of sexual restraint and I would like to know what men
think of this and a woman who covers herself freely is also telling every woman who does not that
she's a whore.

KERRY O'BRIEN: As a champion of human rights, don't you see the contradiction that you're arguing
for the suppression of a woman's right to wear whatever clothes she likes?

AJAAN HIRSI ALI: No, there is no contradiction because I'm not arguing for legislation. For those
women who are forced to wear the veil, I argue that the state should protect them from the
coercion.

KERRY O'BRIEN: But who is going to say whether they're forced to wear the veil or wearing it by
choice?

AJAAN HIRSI ALI: Yes. That's another debate. But the major debate is on the merits of the morality
on which the veil is based. We live in a democracy and we cannot interact with each other only
through the law. Often we have to debate and persuade each other, and I think that I can persuade
many rational people that the assertion that men are incapable of restraining their own sexuality
and because of that I have to cover myself, that that is irrational and something we should not
want.

KERRY O'BRIEN: Is it fair to draw the conclusion from your books and from your articles that you
don't believe that Islam and Western style democracy can coexist?

AJAAN HIRSI ALI: Islam has certain characteristics that can coexist with Western democracy. As a
Muslim I was taught to be generous, to be hospitable, to be kind to the elderly and to be kind to
the poor but Islam contains - the basic tenets of Islam and the basic tenets Western liberal
democracies are incompatible. Islam fails to recognise secularity or the separation of church and
State. Women are subordinate. Life is not valued as much is in the Western liberal societies where
life and the freedom of the individual are separate ends in themselves. In Islam, life, liberty and
the pursuit of happiness are things that you can pursue when you go to heaven but you have to die
first because life on earth is just a passage and you observe certain rules and if you don't
observe those rules you're not considered a Muslim. And then you have the treatment of homosexuals,
or at least the idea that they are not allowed to live and should either be banished or killed.
Now, in liberal societies these are values that are radically different from what Islam preaches.

KERRY O'BRIEN: But there are many, many moderate Muslims in Australia and I imagine England, the
Netherlands and other Western style democracies who would say they have no absolutely problem
practising their religion faithfully but also supporting the democratic system of their country.

AJAAN HIRSI ALI: Precisely, and that's why in this debate I think we should make a distinction
between Muslims and Islam. Muslims are individuals and they are varied. You will find some of them
are radical and some of them are moderate and some do not practice the religion at all. Islam as a
doctrine, as a body of ideas, as a belief, is - means submission to the will of Allah. What is that
submission means is recorded in the Koran and in the Hadid and we have seen examples of that
practice in the countries that have implemented Muslim law, or the Sharia, such as Iran, Saudi
Arabia and lately Afghanistan under the Taliban. In some Muslim countries they have implemented
only the family law part of the Sharia and it's this that I oppose to and I think it's Islam, the
doctrine, the ideology that religion that does not meet or that is incompatible with liberal
democracy but that Muslims, as varied as they are, you will find that some accept democracy and
appreciate it, some who do not and you will find others who are out to destroy it. I think we
should not underestimate those.

KERRY O'BRIEN: When you draw, as you have, on the now notorious comments of Sheikh Hilali in Sydney
last year about the victim of gang rape as uncovered meat to make your case for Islam's double
standards for men and women, shouldn't you acknowledge that the sheikh's comments shocked and
angered many Muslims in his community?

AJAAN HIRSI ALI: I'm not sure if many Muslims were shocked. I haven't seen reactions to his
comments. What is striking since 11 September about the debate on Islam is that when in the name of
Islam violence is committed or in the name of Islam remarks are made such as the sheikh has done,
the majority of Muslims remain silent, but when drawings of the Prophet Mohammed are made or when
you make remarks about - I think the Koran was thrown in Guantanamo Bay, or the Pope quotes a
Byzantine emperor from very long ago, then you see large groups of Muslims taking to the streets
shouting murder and saying they are offended because Islam is a religion of peace and going out
there in large numbers to demonstrate the opposite.

KERRY O'BRIEN: What do you say to those who would dismiss you as the migrant who came from a
traumatic background and became a reactionary as a result?

AJAAN HIRSI ALI: In the first place, I use the tools that we are supposed to use in a democracy
which is non-violent means to argue my assertions and views. Next, I don't see what is reactionary
about saying, "Let's respect life as an end in itself, liberty as an end in itself and the equality
of men and women."

KERRY O'BRIEN: Does it concern you, particularly in the emotional environment post 9/11, that your
comments will be used by extremists and zealots in Western countries as an excuse for their
bigotry, a bigotry that also sometimes leads to violence?

AJAAN HIRSI ALI: I am against every form of extremism and any attack on Liberalism. I think extreme
right wing parties and movements to me are just as bad as extreme right wing fundamentalist
Muslims. There is - what I have descended to is the idea of liberty and self reflection and
creating a society that is peaceful and prosperous through trial and error.

KERRY O'BRIEN: Do you still fear for your life in the way you came to do in the Netherlands? Do you
take the threats seriously?

AJAAN HIRSI ALI: I take the threats seriously and fortunately I still have people protecting me,
provided by the Dutch Government. But I cannot live my life in fear every day. I enjoy life to the
full. I know the threats are out there and I think that it's clearly worth fighting for the
freedoms that I have come to benefit from in just 14 years. I know them only for 14 years. Probably
that's why I'm more passionate about them than the people who are born into it.

KERRY O'BRIEN: From your self-imposed exile, how do you describe your relationships now with your
family - your father, mother, brothers and sisters?

AJAAN HIRSI ALI: That's one of the prices of speaking out against Islam. My entire family are
devout Muslims and repelled by what I do and what I say. And that's unfortunate. But I can explain
it as I belong to the generation that's the transition and that's something my children will not
suffer.

KERRY O'BRIEN: Ajaan Hirsi Ali, thank you very much for talking with us.

AJAAN HIRSI ALI: You're welcome.

Qld policeman charged over death in custody

Qld policeman charged over death in custody

Reporter: Peter Mccutcheon

For the first time in Australian history, a police officer will be charged over an Aboriginal death
in custody. Queensland's Attorney-General today announced that legal proceedings would begin
against Senior Sergeant Chris Hurley for the manslaughter of a Palm Island man known as Mulrunji
more than two years ago. It's been a protracted and highly contentious case, sparking widespread
protests late last year, when Queensland's Director of Public Prosecutions, Leanne Clare said she
thought the death in custody was a 'terrible accident' and she would not be laying charges. But
today the Queensland Government released the findings of a subsequent review of the case by former
New South Wales Chief Justice Sir Laurence Street, who concluded there was sufficient evidence to
begin criminal proceedings, with a reasonable prospect of a conviction.

DEMONSTRATOR: This is the change for a better Australia.

PETER MCCUTCHEON: It began as an Indigenous protest against Australia Day on the streets of
Brisbane, but soon turned into an occasion for muted celebration.

DEMONSTRATOR: Part of this victory is yours. It's not over yet. It's not over.

PETER MCCUTCHEON: In a stunning turnaround, the Queensland Government today announced it would
charge Senior Sergeant Chris Hurley over the death of an Indigenous man in custody on Palm Island
more than two years ago.

KERRY SHINE, QLD ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I have instructed the Crown Solicitor to issue proceedings
charging Sergeant Chris Hurley with manslaughter.

PETER MCCUTCHEON: But this highly controversial case continues to divide the community.

DENIS FITZPATRICK, QPU: Police right across this State of Queensland today are incensed at this
political interference.

LES MALEZER, ABORIGINAL AND ISLANDER RESEARCH ACTION: It's quite wrong of the Police Union to take
a hardline position. I mean, they're not there to adjudge the case.

PETER MCCUTCHEON: The 36-year-old man known as Mulrunji was found dead in the Palm Island watchouse
in 2004, only hours after being arrested for public drunkenness. The local community suspected foul
play and set fire to the Palm Island police station after authorities insisted the death was
accidental. After two years of legal wrangling, the acting State Coroner found the arresting police
sergeant responsible for Mulrunji's death, but that finding was contradicted three months later by
Queensland's Director of Public Prosecutions, Leanne Clare, who not only ruled there was
insufficient evidence for a criminal trial, but declared the whole incident was a terrible
accident.

LEANNE CLARE, QLD DPP: The medical evidence is that the fall is the most likely explanation for Mr
Doomadgee's death.

DEMONSTRATOR: What do we want?

CROWD: Justice!

PETER MCCUTCHEON: The Aboriginal community was outraged, and Leanne Clare agreed to have the case
reviewed by one of the country's most eminent jurists, former NSW Chief Justice Sir Lawrence
Street. Sir Lawrence handed his findings to the Queensland Government yesterday. They were made
public today.

KERRY SHINE: There was sufficient admissible evidence to support the institution of criminal
proceedings against Senior Sergeant Chris Hurley for the manslaughter of Mulrunji.

PETER MCCUTCHEON: Although this directly contradicts the findings of Queensland's top prosecutor,
the State Attorney-General, Kerry Shine, today argued it's not unusual to have different legal
opinions.

KERRY SHINE: There is no slight in any of this on the DPP at all. There is no diminishing of
confidence in the DPP therefore.

PETER MCCUTCHEON: Can the Indigenous community still have confidence in the Director of Public
Prosecutions, Leanne Clare?

LES MALEZER: I can't see how Indigenous people can have confidence.

PETER MCCUTCHEON: Les Malezer is a former senior bureaucrat for the Goss Labor Government and
researcher for the Black Deaths in Custody Royal Commission.

LES MALEZER: This is an administration of justice problem and I think the whole system has to take
responsibilities.

PETER BEATTIE, QLD PREMIER: So rather than a reduction, I think in the long-term this will restore
and encourage public confidence in the system.

PETER MCCUTCHEON: But the Queensland Police Union argues quite the opposite, that today's
turnaround has damaged an important public office.

DENIS FITZPATRICK: Queenslanders today should be very concerned about the blatant political
interference in our justice system. Until now the office of DPP has been independent, but the
political intervention in this case now means that that independence might - should well be
abolished.

PETER MCCUTCHEON: So far the only street protests have been by the Indigenous community against
police and prosecutors, but the Police Union says the boot could soon be on the other foot and it
has not ruled out taking strike action.

DENIS FITZPATRICK: At this stage we're not ruling anything out and I would remind you all it's not
just noisy minority groups who could march on parliament.

PETER BEATTIE: I think Queenslanders could be confident in the quality of the police that serve
this community. It's important that they accept Sir Lawrence Street's decision and that
recommendation. And I would urge the Police Union to do so.

PETER MCCUTCHEON: As Queensland joined the rest of Australia in celebrating 218 years of European
settlement today, Premier Peter Beattie has been given a new challenge. Aboriginal anger over
perceived injustice in the Mulrunji case may have dissipated, but the gulf between Indigenous
communities and police has, if anything, widened. And Indigenous advocates argue the longer term
solution is not the outcome of the court case, but a commitment to tackling the underlying causes
of Aboriginal disadvantage.

LES MALEZER: There is a deeper problem behind all this but we are seeing, at least, I think, to
give credit, we are seeing the Government do something positive here. We have to encourage them to
continue to be positive but now we have to say there's more to be done, please get on with the
other things.

Young sprinter shows international promise

Young sprinter shows international promise

Reporter: Rebecca Baillie

It's been a long time between drinks for Australia's Olympic sprinters in the blue ribbon 11
metres. More than 50 years, in fact, since Betty Cuthbert won gold in Melbourne. But there's an
exciting and very determined 16-year-old, Olivia Toro, who stamped herself at the recent Youth
Olympics as potentially Australia's next big international star. Rebecca Baillie reports.

SARA MCLELLAN, MOTHER: We call her the bull terrier. She's like a bull terrier.

OLIVIA TAURO: I'm determined. I have to get to where I want to go. I want to go to the Olympics.
That's the end of it.

REBECCA BAILLIE: She's considered one of Australia's brightest Olympic hopes. 16-year-old Olivia
Tauro is among the fastest Australian women over 100m and 200m, and she has Olympic officials
sitting up and taking notice.

CRAIG PHILLIPS,SECRETARY-GENERAL, AOC: Very precocious talent. She hasn't actually lost a race at
school-age competition since year 5, which is quite a remarkable record. So obviously someone we
think has got great potential to go on and be in one of our Olympic teams in the future.

REBECCA BAILLIE: In training for the Australian youth Olympic festival, she's being tested against
some of the world's toughest competition. The event attracted has 1,700 competitors from 20
countries and is designed to give junior athletes a taste of the real thing.

CRAIG PHILLIPS: It's a multi-sport thing, so they get that Olympic experience of being amongst a
lot of sports. They live in the Olympic Village.

OLIVIA TAURO: It helps a lot because if you're not used to it and you get thrown into an
environment where you don't understand and you don't know what's going on, then you could suffer
quite a lot and it could psych you out mentally for your race.

TRAINER: You hit the speed you're about to hit by the time you get to 50m. From then on, you've
just got to relax.

REBECCA BAILLIE: Olivia Tauro's coach, Paul Hallam, believes his young charge has what it takes to
succeed, even though most runners don't reach their peak until their late 20s. He first noticed her
when she won the 100m final at the 2005 Youth Olympics, aged just 14.

OLIVIA TAURO: Oh, my God, I'm so young.

PAUL HALLAM: A lot of people have seen the potential in her. She has really high leg speeds. Her
main strength, I think, is, apart from her being fast, just her general toughness. She is very
tough.

REBECCA BAILLIE: Olivia Tauro credits her mental strength to going up in a big family. The fourth
of eight children, she knows what it means to compete for everything.

OLIVIA TAURO: When you're in such a big environment and everyone wants something, you get the
desire to get it more than anybody else. In a competition you have all your race opponents and you
want to win more than them because you're used to it.

SARA MCLELLAN: She's got a lot of spirit in her and we're a pretty large family and it's pretty
much rough and tackle here for anything you want in the sibling environment. I've made her a pretty
independent young lady.

REBECCA BAILLIE: Sarah McLellan says her family has had to make many sacrifices to keep her
daughter on track for an international athletics career. Two years ago, all 10 of them moved from
Newcastle to Sydney so Olivia Tauro could take up a scholarship at the NSW Institute of Sport.

SARA MCLELLAN: It's a big strain because I'm a stay-at-home mother and there's other siblings in
this house who want to do things with themselves as well. But we roughly spend $30,000 to $40,000 a
year on Olivia.

REBECCA BAILLIE: For Sara McLellan, it's a worthwhile investment. A former runner herself, she
understands her daughter's hunger for an Olympic medal.

SARA MCLELLAN: She doesn't want to make money, she doesn't want to have eight kids. It's her
greatest dream to bring Australian women back into a world area of competition where they can bring
home Olympic medals in athletics again, especially sprint events.

NEWS ARCHIVE: In the semifinal Marjorie Jackson has created a new world record of 23.4 seconds, and
is a hot favourite for the final.

NEWS ARCHIVE: There's little in it as they round the bend.

REBECCA BAILLIE: Australian women have a golden tradition in sprinting, but not since the likes of
Marjorie Jackson and Betty Cuthbert has an Australian woman won the 100m and 200m sprint double at
the Olympic Games. Olivia Tauro wants to be the next. It's the Youth Olympics finals and Olivia
Tauro's first big test of the meet. To achieve the double she must first perform in the 100m
against competitors from countries including China, New Zealand and Chinese Taipei. With victory in
the 100 under her belt, she must now focus on her favourite event, the 200m.

OLIVIA TAURO: I love the 200. It's just the bend, flying around the corner and just veering out on
to the straight. It's really good. People, like, on the bend are just calling out to you. It's very
technical.

REBECCA BAILLIE: While victory in the youth Olympics is sweet, for Olivia Tauro the long-term goal
remains the Beijing and London Olympic Games, and if guts and drive are any measure, she just might
get there.

OLIVIA TAURO: It's too easy to be ordinary. That's the main thing, like, you can be yourself and
not have anything in life to look forward to or you can be extraordinary and stand out.

KERRY O'BRIEN: Nothing like a bit of ambition to match the talent.