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Libya ready to face 'great challenges' -

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Libya ready to face 'great challenges'

Broadcast: 21/10/2011

Reporter: Ali Moore

Libyan ambassador to the United States Ali Aujali joins Lateline to discuss the new era in Libya's


ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: Now we're joined from Washington by the Libyan ambassador to the United
States, Ali Aujali.

Ali Aujuli, many thanks for joining Lateline tonight.


ALI MOORE: Moamar Gaddafi always said he would die in Libya and he would go down fighting, it does
appear he was cornered while trying to escape and we're told he was then killed in cross fire. Do
you have any clearer understanding of how he died, whether it was indeed cross fire or something
more deliberate?

ALI AUJULI: Well the statement was made by Dr Mahmoud Jibril, the Prime Minister, it was very clear
they captured him alive. He was wounded but when they trying to put him, another track, it looks
like that he, a bullet went through his head.

But in the end I think that's what he deserved. He had so many chances to have a better end for his
dictatorship, his regime, but he insists. Even with the bloodshed committed by his people for the
last eight months he never realised that he's doing something which nobody did in the history, I
believe, bringing mercenaries, killing his own people, raping women, mass graves, mass
assassination. Then I think he deserved, he and his family, what they get for the suffering of the
Libyan people. Not only the Libyan people they suffered, actually as you know, Europeans, Americans

ALI MOORE: That said though the United Nations Human Rights Office said there should be a full
investigation into his death, do you think that it matters? Do you think there should be an
investigation? And, indeed, can you confirm some early reports that the burial of Gaddafi might be

ALI AUJULI: Investigation for what? He get what he deserve and this is not a plan by the NTC
(National Transitional Council) or by the revolutionary. The Libyan people and the NTC and I
believe the European they like very much to see Gaddafi alive and to ask him questions for his
criminal for the last 42 years against humanity.

This question is will delay his burial or not. In the Muslim way that the dead body have to be
buried as soon as possible, that's what I know. I don't think that will delay this process.

ALI MOORE: You do say investigation into what? The last time we spoke on this program you also said
that Gaddafi had to face justice, do you think it would have been better if he'd been caught alive
and put on trial?

ALI AUJULI: Well there is different issues. But the main thing that the NTC and the Libyan people,
as I said before, they want to capture him alive. And I think that would be really interesting to
ask Gaddafi why he used all the forces, mercenaries, weapons against his own people? Why didn't he
answer the call for peaceful solution by stepping down.

If he came with any initiative or just wishes, wish to get out peacefully, that would have happened
I believe. But from the beginning to the end he insist that 'I'm not stepping down.' That the only
option he gave to the Libyan people that they have to continue fighting.

This era of dictatorship it must finish as soon as possible. It is a new page for the Libyan people
to build their democratic country. Libya will have a very candid relation with the international
community. Libyan people they are celebrating the end of the abuse of Gaddafi's regime. This is the
end of a chapter.

ALI MOORE: The end of a chapter, the end of an era. As we heard in that earlier report, though, one
son, Saif al-Islam, his whereabouts are unknown. Do you believe that he, or indeed the forces that
have remained loyal to Gaddafi, do you believe any of them have any sort of capability now, present
any sort of threat?

ALI AUJULI: No I don't believe so. I think that's the end of the war. The end of anybody to raise
arms against the Libyan people. I think that's over, this war is over.

Gaddafi is fighting not to gain anything, he's fighting for revenge. He tell the Libyan people very
clear, if we don't rule you, you and my family, my son and my family, we are going to fight. And
that's what happened exactly.

Unfortunate his son was worse than him. The Libyan people were very optimistic that Saif, he came
out and he spoke in a very civilised way, telling the Libyan that he was reformed, he want
constitution, he want human rights, he want freedom of the press. But his speech on the 20th of
February told everybody without a doubt that Saif, he is worse than his father.

And that's when I heard that speech, that's when I went to al Jazeera and announced my resignation,
because there was no other exit except to continue Gaddafi's rule in Libya or to face the war.

ALI MOORE: Well of course it is now that the work really begins, now Gaddafi is dead. How quickly
can the National Transitional Council form an interim government?

ALI AUJULI: Well let me tell you. First of all we are very grateful for every country, including
Australia, the help Libya, and the United States and NATO and Arab countries and many other
countries for their support. And we still need their support, not only during the war but also
during the peace.

The challenges are great but what make me happy that the determination of the Libyan people. You
see these young people, 18, 15, 20 years of age, first time in their life that they know the arm,
that they touch the arm. They sacrifice with their blood, they're wearing slippers not proper shoes
or proper clothes, but their bitterness, they felt it during the years of Gaddafi's rule make them
that this is the time to remove this dictatorship regime. I ...

ALI MOORE: That said ...

ALI AUJULI: ... don't. Don't worry about Libya. We will be able to build democratic ... Libya will
be able to choose a democratic country and our relation with the world will be smoother and better.

ALI MOORE: You do express great confidence but of course we've seen Hillary Clinton and William
Hague urge that the various militias be brought into one central army as quickly as possible. I
understand there are something line 40 separate militias. It is a country with no parliament, not
constitution, virtually no civil society organisation. As you say, the challenges are huge. There
is a timeframe laid out, eight months to an election, do you think that's realistic? And how
careful does the council have to be about setting expectations?

ALI AUJULI: Well I was confidence from the beginning when the Libyans raised against Gaddafi in
February. I was confidence that we will win this fight against this dictatorship regime.

Don't listen too much to these people who claim that they are expert, they know the area, because
when I listen to them talking about the tribes about this kind of issue, I don't think really they
know the Libyan, they know their culture, or even sometimes that they know what the role of the
tribe. The tribe in Libya they have no political role, they just maybe social more than political.

The Libyan believe me who find themselves in the days fighting a regime with all the machines, guns
they had, they united for the last eight months to carry on this responsibility. I have great
confidence in them that they will be united to build a new democratic Libya. This groups, this
militia, this militia, they happen in every crisis in the world; but I don't over and I don't
exaggerate how much they are dangers. Of ...

ALI MOORE: So what is ....

ALI AUJULI: ... course the challenges are great but also the expectations are great too.

ALI MOORE: So what will an interim government look like? Who will be the dominant player?

ALI AUJULI: Well now, as you know, we have NTC who has been guided the Libyan people, who has been
managing this crisis since the last, since February. And people they have a great respect for Mr
Jibril, he's very respected man all over Libya, Dr Mahmoud Jibril, the prime minister. He's also a
very efficient man, very nationalist. And I believe that we will find our way. There is a road map,
what we are going to do next. And this is important, has to be respected.

But don't expect that no incidents will happen from time to time, or no differences. Difference is
required. Libya was living for 42 years for one man, one idea, one destination. Now when we see
some diversity in what we are going to do, some opinions of how do we handle our issue, how do we
handle our relation with the west or with the east, this what we want to do. But there is a price
for that of course. We do not want to impose what the Libyan people should do. Libyans they deserve
a better life, they deserve to practice their rights from now on.

ALI MOORE: If I could just finish with a personal question, of course this one man, this one
regime, was one that you answered for, answered to and worked for prior to your February decision
to leave. Do you ever wish that you'd done that earlier?

ALI AUJULI: Look, one time Anderson Cooper he asked me, do you regret anything? I said no. He
unfortunately misinterpreted that. But if you ask me again, I say, no, I don't regret anything.
Since I graduated from the university and joined the foreign service, I didn't commit anything
wrong in my life as a public servant. And, but in the same time we cannot leave Libya for Gaddafi
to do what he wants. We must have some people they at least, if they cannot raise their voices, at
least they can have some sympathy and they can serve their community.

When I came to Washington DC I never discriminate against the Libyan people who were living here
for 30, 40 years, who is with Gaddafi or who is against Gaddafi because, and what I told them
exactly, if I can help you, if I can save you then that is what I really want. Then, of course,
when it reached the point where I cannot really do what I need to do to help the Libyan people,
then I resigned. At that point it was 21st of February this year.

ALI MOORE: Well it is another historic day for your country.

Ali Aujali many thanks for talking to Lateline once again.

ALI AUJULI: Thanks, thanks.