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Tonight - ordered out. The NSW Premier forces a senior Minister to stand down over a nightclub

For the sake of completeness and of detail, I believe that this is a matter now that does require
him to stand aside from his Ministerial duties.

This after revelations today that the nightclub's apology for the behaviour of its staff was
written by the Minister.

He asked me to send him the exact terms of that apology. He modified it and signed it. They have
taken responsibility for that apology. That is their business, not mine.

Good evening. Welcome to Lateline. I'm Virginia Trioli. This week's political talking point has
been a rather unexpected one it's been all about who said what to whom at a new notorious dinner at
a night spot called Iguana Joe's.

We also need to ensure that the same standards are applied to all politicians in all jurisdictions
- Federal, State, Liberal, Labor, Greens and Democrats.

It does go to Kevin Rudd's leadership that he thought he could laugh it off on Tuesday and by
Wednesday thought he had to act.

On the issue of political standards and double standards, we're joined later by Labor's Craig
Emerson and the Opposition's Christopher Pyne. First our other headlines. No pain no gain. The
Reserve Bank says interest rates must remain high to beat inflation. Free to argue their case, the
US Supreme Court rules that prisoners at Guantanamo Bay can challenge their detention. And appeal
upheld, tougher sentences handed out to those

NSW Education Minister stood down over nightclub altercation

NSW Education Minister stood down over nightclub altercation

Broadcast: 13/06/2008

Reporter: John Stewart

New South Wales Premier Morris Iemma has stood aside his Education Minister, John Della Bosca,
after an embarrassing row in a nightclub.


VIRGINIA TRIOLI: The New South Wales Premier has stood aside his Education Minister, John Della
Bosca, after an embarrassing row in a nightclub.

Last week, Mr Della Bosca and his wife, Federal MP Belinda Neal, were involved in an argument with
the nightclub's staff.

The club's management then sent a written apology to the Minister, but today it was revealed that
Mr Della Bosca himself wrote the apology.

John Stewart reports.

JOHN STEWART: The NSW Education Minister, John Della Bosca, is a key Labor power broker who dreamt
of becoming Premier. But today, his career took a spectacular dive.

MORRIS IEMMA, NSW PREMIER: For the sake of completeness and of detail I believe that this is a
matter now that does require him to stand aside from his ministerial duties.

JOHN STEWART: It all started here at this waterfront restaurant on the NSW Central Coast. Last
week, Mr Della Bosca and his wife, Federal Labor MP Belinda Neal were having dinner at Iguana Joe's
nightclub when they got into a row with the staff.

JOHN DELLA BOSCA, NSW EDUCATION MINISTER: This started as an argument about the movement of a table
in a bistro. The staff, we believed, were rude to our friends. We then complained to them.

JOHN STEWART: Security camera video shows the two Labor politicians speaking with the staff about
the incident.

After the stoush became front page news, Mr Della Bosca threatened to take legal action against the
nightclub's managers.

The club then issued a written apology to the Minister, which took the heat out of the controversy
for a few days.

MORRIS IEMMA: So, it's a fairly strong and unequivocal apology from a person who was there and the

JOHN STEWART: But today it was revealed that the Education Minister himself wrote the apology.

JOHN DELLA BOSCA: He asked me to send him the exact terms of that apology. He modified it and
signed it. They have taken responsibility for that apology. That is their business, not mine.

JOHN STEWART: The embarrassing revelation forced the NSW Premier to stand his Education Minister
down, while the police investigate all of the sworn statements made by both the nightclub's staff
and Mr Della Bosca's supporters.

BARRY O'FARRELL, NSW OPPOSITION LEADER: It was clear that if John Della Bosca mislead the
Parliament, the Premier wouldn't sack him. Now that he's mislead the Premier, Morris Iemma still
won't sack John Della Bosca.

JOHN STEWART: Despite intense pressure, the Premier has resisted calls to sack his Education

JOURNALIST: He has lied. Why don't you sack him?

MORRIS IEMMA: Well there's - the first point is there is an investigation into this matter. It's a
police investigation; they have commenced.

JOHN STEWART: Mr Della Bosca remains unapologetic.

JOHN DELLA BOSCA: I have done nothing wrong, nothing wrong.

JOHN STEWART: Earlier this week, the Prime Minister told Belinda Neal to get anger management
counselling after reports that the Iguana affair was the latest in a series of incidents.

KEVIN RUDD, PRIME MINISTER: There is - there appears to be - a pattern of unacceptable behaviour.

JOHN STEWART: John Della Bosca and Belinda Neal were once known as an ALP power couple, but the
lights are now dimming on the Labor pair.

John Stewart, Lateline.

Mis-translation triggers whirlwind of diplomatic damage control

Mis-translation triggers whirlwind of diplomatic damage control

Broadcast: 13/06/2008

Reporter: Virginia Trioli

A stand-in Indonesian interpreter has caused confusion and a whirlwind of diplomatic damage control
on Prime Minister Kevin Rudd's visit to Indonesia. The linguist said that President Susilo Bambang
Yudhoyono looked forward to Australia's terrorism warnings to travellers being relaxed.


VIRGINIA TRIOLI, PRESENTER: It was a case of diplomatic subtlety being lost in translation. A
stand-in Indonesian interpreter caused a confusion and whirlwind of diplomatic damage control on
Kevin Rudd's visit to Indonesia.

On the sensitive issue of Australian terrorism warnings to travellers, the linguist said that
President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono looked forward to them being relaxed.

SUSILO BAMBANG YUDHOYONO, INDONESIAN PRESIDENT (voice over translation): I do look forward that
this advisory would be lifted.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: But moments later, the President issued orders to publicly correct the translator
and assure Australia that he respects its right to set travel advice as it likes.

ANDI MALLARANGENG, PRESIDENTIAL SPOKESMAN: There was a mistake in the interpretation of the

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: Kevin Rudd flies on to Aceh tomorrow to see Australian aid money at work before
returning home.

Resources boom taking its toll

Resources boom taking its toll

Broadcast: 13/06/2008

Reporter: Phillip Lasker

Reserve Bank head Glenn Stevens says interest rates have to stay high, despite the pain they are
causing. Mr Stevens said the reason is to stop the commodities boom sending inflation out of


VIRGINIA TRIOLI: Consumers and home buyers will continue to pay a heavy price for the resources
boom, according to Reserve Bank Governor Glenn Stevens.

Mr Stevens says interest rates have to stay high, despite the pain they're causing, in order to
stop the commodities boom sending inflation out of control.

Here's finance correspondent, Phillip Lasker.

PHILLIP LASKER: Reserve Bank Governor Glenn Stevens and his American counterpart Ben Bernanke are
part of the growing chorus of central bankers warning about inflation. Glenn Stevens, who sees a
terms of trade shock hitting the economy, is one of its loudest members.

GLENN STEVENS, RESERVE BANK GOVERNOR: It has occurred and is occurring at a time when the
productive capacity of the economy has already been stretched by the long expansion, hence the
prospect of inflation has presented a larger and more immediate danger to us here in Australia than
it has to the United States, at least so far.

PHILLIP LASKER: Higher interest rates may be starting to weigh on the economy, but the Governor's
not sure it's enough, nor is he sure of the extent of the damage from the credit crunch. But to
Glenn Stevens, the inflation threat trumps the subprime threat. The governor is far more convinced
that the emergence of China and other parts of Asia will keep the pressure on global food and
commodities prices and he's far more concerned about the commodities boom intensifying the
inflation threat.

GLENN STEVENS: This is why tight monetary policy setting is essential.

SHANE OLIVER, AMP CAPITAL: Well the Governor's speech was surprisingly tough-sounding. His focus
was on inflation, not just in Australia and around the world, and the clear message was that
inflation is a major problem.

PHILLIP LASKER: And that's a major problem for home borrowers expecting interest rate relief. The
Governor says some sections of the economy will have to suffer so that the resources sector can
grow without triggering an inflation breakout.

GLENN STEVENS: Practically speaking, domestic consumption, together with housing demand and some
areas of business investment which are not connected to the resources sector, is being asked to
make some room for some period of time for the rise in other forms of investment that will sustain
higher incomes and living standards in the future.

SHANE OLIVER: Basically, the Reserve wants to see more focus on investment in the economy, more
focus on building capacity and through that period, of course, it requires slower growth in
consumer spending.

PHILLIP LASKER: And, it means learning to live with the highest interest rates in 12 years.

Phillip Lasker, Lateline.

Stephen Long discusses Glenn Stevens' statement on interest rates

Stephen Long discusses Glenn Stevens' statement on interest rates

Broadcast: 13/06/2008

Reporter: Virginia Trioli

Economics correspondent Stephen Long joins Virginia Trioli to analyse the Reserve Bank Governor's
tough talk on inflation.


VIRGINIA TRIOLI: Well, economics correspondent Stephen Long joins me now to analyse the Reserve
Bank Governor's tough talk on inflation.

Stephen, how do you interpret it?

STEPHEN LONG, ECONOMICS CORRESPONDENT: It's a very hawkish speech. It doesn't change the policy,
Virginia. It doesn't mean that rates rises are imminent, but it really does underline what a big
threat they see with inflation. And the tone was what was different in this speech. It wasn't so
much the message, which is consistent with the core message for a while, but the language was very
forceful, particularly when Glenn Stevens spoke about the implications of that terms of trade

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: It was also as if we were being put in our place a bit. "You have to stop spending
money, you ordinary people, to allow the mining boom to have its way."

STEPHEN LONG: That was the most significant thing in this speech and that was what was new: the
Reserve Bank Governor's observation that, basically, households had to cut back on spending to make
room for the mining boom. He says you can't have a consumption boom from households and an
investment boom at the same time and with big infrastructure spending by Government as well as the
mining investment, something has to give - it's households. That has big implications. It means
that you've got to see less spending in shops, but it also means that less spending on housing is
on the cards. They want to force that by continuing higher rates and that could go on for some
time. We're talking not months, but possibly years if the inflation threat remains.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: Now, I know that the Reserve Bank is trying to play down at the moment the threat
of the credit crunch, but when we see a behemoth like Babcock and Brown fighting for survival, that
seems to indicate the problem is perhaps even bigger than we've discussed on this program.

STEPHEN LONG: Breathtaking falls in the share price of Australia's second-biggest investment bank,
down 50 per cent in two days, down 81 per cent over the course of the past year and it really is in
a situation where it's having to have crisis talks with the bankers. That said, it's not like one
of the big US investment banks or Macquarie. If it was to hit the walls, and at this stage that
doesn't look necessarily to be on the cards, then it's not a tragedy. And, it does underline,
though, what we've seen for quite a while now, that people who follow this model of using cheap
debt to fund the purchase of assets and leveraging up during the times when credit was cheap and
asset prices are rising, are getting crunched now on the other side of that cycle.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: You've indicated in passing that it's unlikely that it might hit someone or
something like Macquarie Bank. That's been the discussion of course: is Macquarie next?

STEPHEN LONG: Well, this is the Macquarie model that Babcock and Brown was following, but so far
Macquarie has been insulated. It's a bigger fortress. It's harder for speculators with hedge funds
who've been trying to target companies of this kind to hit. Its share price did fall by 50 per cent
from the good times during this, but the big question, really, is do we see those real top end
fortress companies, who followed this model, get hit? That'd be the real crunch time if that was to

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: Stephen Long, thank you.

STEPHEN LONG: You're welcome.

Guantanamo Bay inmates able to challenge detention in US courts

Guantanamo Bay inmates able to challenge detention in US courts

Broadcast: 13/06/2008

Reporter: Tom Iggulden

The United States Supreme Court has ruled that inmates held by the American military in Guantanamo
Bay can challenge the legality of their detention in American courts.


VIRGINIA TRIOLI: The Bush administration's six year effort to keep 270 international terrorist
suspects beyond the reach of the American justice system has now been dealt a huge blow.

The US Supreme Court decision means inmates held by the American military in Guantanamo Bay can
challenge the legality of their detention in American courts.

Lawyers for former inmate David Hicks are now studying the decision to see whether he can apply to
have his detention ruled illegal.

Tom Iggulden reports.

TOM IGGULDEN, REPORTER: The Supreme Court decision strikes directly at the heart of the legality of
holding Guantanamo Bay's prisoners. For the first time, detainees will be able to ask a Federal
Court to compel the US military to reveal the evidence that justifies their incarceration,
including classified evidence. The Federal Court will also have the power to free detainees if it's
convinced, based on that evidence, that their detention is illegal.

ANTHONY KENNEDY, SUPREME COURT JUSTICE (voiceover): "The laws and Constitution are designed to
survive ... and remain in force in extraordinary times", the decision says.

VINCENT WARREN, CENTRE FOR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS: What this decision means is that it's not a get
out of jail free card, but it's simply an opportunity for these men to go before courts and judges
to determine whether they are being held illegally or not.

TOM IGGULDEN: Guantanamo Bay holds several of the suspected plotters of the September 11 attacks,
including the alleged mastermind, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Other than that, the US military's
ensured little's known about the 270 inmates there. Now, more information about them could be made

MARTHA RADDATZ, WHITE HOUSE: It really removes the veil of secrecy and it could be very
embarrassing for the administration. We don't know what these people. We don't know what they're
charged with. We don't know how serious the charges are.

TOM IGGULDEN: The lawyer for former Australian Guantanamo Bay detainee David Hicks expects today's
decision will lead to several appeals against the legality of the Military Commission that
convicted his client, potentially resulting in that conviction being overturned.

DAVID MCLEOD, LAWYER FOR DAVID HICKS: David's conviction will fall away. Any suggestion of
confiscation of profits of crime legislation being applicable to him will fall away. The fact of
his incarceration in Australia will come under question.

TOM IGGULDEN: The Government says the Supreme Court decision is an American matter, but the
Opposition, which supported Mr Hicks' detention in Guantanamo Bay, says the decision didn't rule on
the Military Commission which tried him.

GEORGE BRANDIS, SHADOW ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Nor did it strike down the offences with which he was
charged and to which he chose to plead guilty. So, I very much doubt that the decision of the court
has any bearing on Mr Hicks' position at all.

TOM IGGULDEN: The decision was close - five to four. The Bush administration says it will abide by

GEORGE W BUSH, US PRESIDENT: That doesn't mean I have to agree with it. It was a deeply divided
court. And I strongly agree with those who dissented. And their dissent was based upon their
serious concerns about US national security.

TOM IGGULDEN: The chief justice of the Supreme Court, Antonin Scalia, was the lead dissenter,
writing that America would regret the decision.

ANTONIN SCALIA, SUPREME COURT JUSTICE (voiceover translation): "America is at war with radical
Islamists ...", he wrote. "Today's opinion ... will almost certainly cause more Americans to be

TOM IGGULDEN: The potential next Republican president was also unhappy with the decision.

JOHN MCCAIN, REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE: It obviously concerns me. These are unlawful combatants. They
are not American citizens.

TOM IGGULDEN: Barack Obama issued a statement saying the decision helped restore the credibility of
the American legal system.

Tom Iggulden, Lateline.

Emerson and Pyne discuss political issues of the week

Emerson and Pyne discuss political issues of the week

Broadcast: 13/06/2008

Reporter: Virginia Trioli

The Minister for Small Business Craig Emerson and Opposition spokesman for justice, Christopher
Pyne, debate the volatile week in politics.


VIRGINIA TRIOLI: Now, I think we're pretty safe in assuming that Labor heavyweight John Della Bosca
and his wife Federal MP Belinda Neal won't be celebrating their next wedding anniversary at Iguana

Their dinner last Friday night at the Gosford night spot ended in a flurry of contradictory stat
decs and the sort of press reaction that usually has media advisers scouring the jobs pages.

As a result of the scandal, this afternoon Mr Della Bosca was forced to step aside from his
ministerial positions. And in the meantime, Prime Minister Kevin Rudd had to take time out from
meeting the Emperor of Japan to order Ms Neal to undergo anger management counselling.

It has been a volatile week.

So, joining us tonight to discuss it all is the ever-polite Minister for Small Business, Craig
Emerson - he's in our Canberra studio. And in our Adelaide studio is the Opposition's well-mannered
Christopher Pyne - he's the Shadow Minister for Justice.

Gentlemen, I'll expect some calm and reasonable discussion from you both tonight.

CHRIS EMERSON, MINISTER FOR SMALL BUSINESS: And you'll get it. Hello Christopher. Hi Virginia.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE, SHADOW MINISTER FOR JUSTICE: Good to - good to see. Craig. Virginia.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: Nice to have you both on board, thank you. Well, look, we are going to have to
mention the iguana in the room tonight.

Craig Emerson, the traditionally ugly side of Labor actually turned its face out towards us this
week and a member of the Central Coast branch of the Labor Party this week publicly admitted that
they were worried they'd sent something of a time bomb to Canberra when they voted in Belinda Neal.
Do you wish that they hadn't?

CHRIS EMERSON: Well, Belinda Neal won a very, very difficult seat for Labor and that's just a
matter of fact. I think the swing was around 7 per cent. She has been asked to undergo counselling
by Kevin Rudd - that's appropriate in the circumstances, and Mr Della Bosca has been stood aside by
Premier Morris Iemma. So, I think that, you know, these decisions have been made. We now need to
see how things develop with Mr Della Bosca and I'm sure we'll know that sooner rather than later.
But, both decisions seemed appropriate.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: They seem appropriate to you perhaps. But, if John Della Bosca so comprehensively
misled his Premier over the nature of that apology - one that he said he was given and one that he
actually penned himself - shouldn't he really be sacked, rather than stood aside?

CHRIS EMERSON: Well, I think Mr Iemma has done the right thing in asking Mr Della Bosca to stand
aside. The police are having a look at this issue of statutory declarations at 10 paces - stat.'
dec's made and then rescinded. So, that's a matter now for the police. I think, ah ...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: It's a pretty ugly look, though, isn't it?

CHRIS EMERSON: I think Mr Iemma has acted appropriately and we'll await the outcome of the process.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: But it's a pretty ugly look, all of this, isn't it?

CHRIS EMERSON: Well, it obviously would be better if the incident hadn't happened at the
restaurant. But I think we also need to ensure that the same standards are applied to all
politicians in all jurisdictions - federal, state, Liberal, Labor, Greens and Democrats. And, you
know, I'll have something to say about that if Christopher starts telling us that we should be
doing a lot more than we are.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: Christopher Pyne, you want to weigh in there? It looks like you've been warned
before you even start.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, it does sound like a threat, Virginia, but I'll be fascinated to hear what
Craig has to say if he wants to say anything. In terms of the issue that you've raised about
Belinda Neal and John Della Bosca, it actually goes very much to Kevin Rudd's judgment and the
comparison with former leaders, because Belinda Neal's story and the John Della Bosca story were on
the front page of the Daily Telegraph on Sunday. When Kevin Rudd was finally pinned down about this
issue on Tuesday in Japan, he tried to make light of it. He tried to laugh it off. And then on
Wednesday, he finally acted. So four days after the story had broken, when he probably had notice
of it the day before it broke, Kevin Rudd finally felt the need to pick up the phone and ring
Belinda Neal and suggest to her, apparently, allegedly, that she should have anger management
courses or she said to him that she would have counselling - those facts aren't clear. Contrast
that with what John Howard did when he was prime minister and he had similar issues with Noel
Crichton-Brown. Now Noel Crichton-Brown's paid a very high price - we don't want to rake over those
coals, but as soon as John Howard felt that there was inappropriate behaviour from Noel
Crichton-Brown, he acted immediately, and that's what leaders do.

What we've seen here with Kevin Rudd is that he ...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: Yes, but perhaps we need to bring in a bit of historical context here, though.
With Noel Crichton-Brown, the stories had been - as perhaps they are in this case - legendary
before it came to that rather pretty pass.

CHRIS EMERSON: That's right. That's right and Mr Howard did not act for a very, very long time. And
if i could now carry through on what I was about to say - and it's not a threat - it's just an
observation, Virginia and Christopher: in relation to Mr Troy Buswell - now this fellow is the
leader of the Opposition, the Liberal leader in Western Australia. He had a woman in his room. He
picked the chair afterwards in front of her and sniffed the chair. And, you know what Brendan
Nelson did for Mr Buswell? Provided his full support and confidence to Mr Buswell. That's what I
was talking about in my introductory remarks. And Christopher, I'd be very interested to know what
you think about Mr Buswell's behaviour if we are going to be even-handed about this.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: Christopher Pyne.

CHRIS EMERSON: That's right and Mr Howard did not act for a very, very long time and if I could now
carry through on what I was about to say, and it's not a threat, just an observation, Virginia and
Christopher, in relation to Mr Troy Buswell, now, this fellow is the Leader of the Opposition, the
Liberal leader in WA, he had a woman in his room, he picked the chair up afterwards in front of her
and sniffed the chair and you know what Brendan Nelson did for Mr Buswell? Provided his full
support and confidence to Mr Buswell. That's what I was talking about in my introductory remarks
and Christopher, I'd be very interested to know what you thing about Mr Buswell's behaviour if we
are going to be even-handed about this.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: Christopher Pyne.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, the Troy Buswell story is done and dusted. He put his leadership to a vote
in the Western Australian Liberal Party and the Liberal Party voted to continue with his
leadership. We're no dealing with months later ...

CHRIS EMERSON: Well, Christopher, are you condoning that behaviour?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Just a minute, just a sec', just a sec', Craig. We're now dealing with an issue
that's months later; it's what's in the news and the story really is about whether the allegations
about Belinda Neal threatening to have the licence of a licensed premises removed or the jobs of
the staff removed was an improper use of her position as a Member of Parliament and that is what,
as you said, Craig, the police are investigating ...


CHRISTOPHER PYNE: ... in terms of the statutory declarations at 10 paces, as you put it. So, there
is actually a much wider and more important issue about what Belinda Neal did or didn't do. I would
hasten to add, though, that these matters do need to be investigated by the police, but they are
allegations, there are conflicting stories ...


CHRISTOPHER PYNE: ... but the point is, Kevin Rudd took four days to take any action because he has
this image of himself and his Government as this kind of palace on a hill and the spin that's
created that palace isn't allowed to be blemished. And so, the first - his first instinct was to
laugh it off and pretend it didn't happen.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: All right, Christopher Pyne, let's wrap this up a bit, Christopher Pyne.

CHRIS EMERSON: Hold on. Take a breath, Chris. Take a breath.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: And then finally, on Wednesday, he acted.


CHRIS EMERSON: Now, the day before he acted, Julia Gillard had already said as acting Prime
Minister in Australia that she was not happy with Ms Neal's behaviour. But I've given you an
opportunity, Christopher, to condemn the behaviour of Troy Buswell. It was after these revelations
came to light that Brendan Nelson, as I understand it, gave his full support and confidence and I'm
asking you to be even-handed and say here on television tonight that you find Mr Buswell's
behaviour unacceptable. Brendan Nelson wouldn't do that, will you?

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: You can do so briefly or not, Christopher Pyne, then I want to move on.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, briefly, I'll say that I'm not going to rake over the old coals of an issue
that has been put to bed. The Belinda Neal issue is fresh in our minds at the moment.

CHRIS EMERSON: In other words you won't condemn that behaviour.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: And Belinda Neal deserves the chance to have the allegations tested, but it does
go to Kevin Rudd's leadership that he thought he could laugh it off on Tuesday and finally by
Wednesday felt that he had to act. Again, his judgment has been called into question, as it often
is when his perfectly created castle on the hill is blemished by actions outside his control.

CHRIS EMERSON: He doesn't take a breath!

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: All right. Very briefly ...

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: If I do, you interrupt me.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: ... just to finish off this subject, Craig Emerson. I do want to ask you to make
the case that it's not been sexism as some on your side have charged in terms of Kevin Rudd's
response to this situation when you think about, perhaps, the fact that Mark Latham was elevated to
the leadership, even with a rather, a chequered history of temper and the like. So, make the case
for us that it's not sexism.

CHRIS EMERSON: Well, I don't believe it is sexism. There are serious allegations; there do seem to
be suggestions that Ms Neal behaved inappropriately and I think it's perfectly reasonable in those
circumstances for the acting Prime Minister Julia Gillard and then Mr Rudd from Japan to take the
steps to say that she should undergo counselling and I think that's appropriate.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: OK. Craig Emerson, you've sought to define a new era of Labor Government in a
speech this week, one that looks rather like a traditional Coalition view of the world actually -
free market, small Government, less middle class welfare, more tax cuts. How do you square that
away with what voters are consistently telling us at the moment in polls when they're asked, that
they actually want governments to be spending more of their money, money that they take, on
services that they need such as hospitals and schools and the like? This view of small government
and handing the money back for you to do with it what you want doesn't seem to quite sit with that

CHRIS EMERSON: Well, if I could take the first point, Virginia: it's not a model that was embraced
by previous Coalition governments, in fact they spent a lot. They increased welfare spending by a
half in just 10 years. They were actually a party of big Government and big regulation and what I'm
arguing is that we should create or re-create an open, competitive economy and use the proceeds of
that growth to do good social things such as ensuring that kids from disadvantaged families get a
good opportunity through an excellent education. And it is true that the Australian public want to
see services delivered. I support that. I support the provision of services in the form of a good
education, particularly for kids from disadvantaged communities. I support Medicare. There's lots
of things that - where governments can wisely spend money, but it's where they squander money and
recycle money to the same people. I think there are opportunities then to reduce taxes and that
makes people less welfare dependent and away you go. So, I think it is a very much in the
traditional Labor mould of a competitive, compassionate political party.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: Christopher Pyne, what do you think? Free markets, small government, it does
rather sound like your side of politics to me?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, I think there are three points to make about that. The first is that it
doesn't surprise me that Craig would give a speech about economic policy this week because he
really would rather be the Treasurer than have Wayne Swan as the Treasurer. And so, he's gonna keep
on pushing in that direction. Secondly ...

CHRIS EMERSON: Oh, forgive me for talking about economics, Christopher.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Secondly, Mark Latham wrote an interesting column in The Financial Review today,
and he's been writing quite a few interesting columns. He's back to his sizzling best in many
respects in writing in The Financial Review. He made the point that Labor governments of old have
been governments about public services, about improving public services, and yet this Government
appears to be a pale imitation of the former Coalition government. Now, what - of course, there's a
saying in politics that people would rather have the butcher than the block, and at election time,
when they've got a choice between the real deal which is the Liberal Party, which stands for free
enterprise, expanding freedom, expanding opportunities for people, and the pale imitation ...

CHRIS EMERSON: Expanding the welfare state.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: ... I've got no doubt, I've got no doubt that they will choose the butcher rather
than the block.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: Craig Emerson, I'll get you to respond briefly to that in just a moment.

CHRIS EMERSON: Yeah, sure, well, I didn't know that Mark was - that Christopher was such an admirer
of Mark Latham. But, yes, go on.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Mark Latham used to do a much better job on Lateline than you're doing tonight,
Craig. Let me say that much.

CHRIS EMERSON: Oh, you're being nasty, Christopher.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: We'll leave it to others to actually ascertain. But, Craig Emerson, in a sense
none of this really matters, because at the moment we seem to have a political culture of the
continual campaign when it comes from the Prime Minister, Kevin Rudd, a rather Peter Beattie way of
running things which is an announcement a week, a stunt a week, a sort of a week-by-weak dealing
with the issue.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: A federal premier.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: Yes, the phrase has been used, "federal premier". So, in a sense, you can talk
about how you want to reposition Labor all you like. What voters on the ground want is for you to
manage the issues as they come along and when the distraction is maintained in that way as Kevin
Rudd seems to be doing, this is sort of just shoot the moon stuff, isn't it?

CHRIS EMERSON: Well, within the first week of the formation of the Rudd Government, the new
government had ratified the Kyoto Protocol. I don't think your viewers would regard that as a press
release or a stunt. One of the proudest moments that I've had in the Federal Parliament ...

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: That's six months ago.

CHRIS EMERSON: ... in my political career was the apology. I would think and hope that even
Christopher would say that that was a great moment and much more than symbolism - it was the
beginning of genuine reconciliation followed up by great work by Jenny Macklin in the practical
areas of reconciliation. We've invested massively in skills creation, an issue the Coalition
ignored. 630,000 skilled training places are going to be created over the next five years, with the
first 20,000 coming out very soon. Computers are being put in schools. I'm not going to spend the
rest of the night rattling off ...

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: No, please don't.

CHRIS EMERSON: ... the very practical policies ...

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: No, please don't, because, you know, we could debate all of that.

CHRIS EMERSON: ... that are being delivered, but I'll say $20 billion for infrastructure. $20
billion for infrastructure. Now, Christopher, is that a press release? Or is that action?

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: Christopher Pyne.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, I'd say this much. I'd say this much. I'd say that the Prime Minister's
announced that he's going to have an "Asian Union" across - along the same lines as the European
Union, something we know that will never happen. You're going to try to get a position on the
United Nations Security Council and you're gonna spend $18 million doing it. It's never going to
happen. You've given $35 million to Toyota, matched by the Victorian Government, to produce a car
that they've already produced, and were going to start rolling off the production lines in two

CHRIS EMERSON: So, do you oppose that? Do you oppose that, Christopher?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: I'll say this. You've said that you're going to get rid of nuclear weapons all
across the world as if it hasn't been thought of before and as Virginia's said, shooting at the
moon. The next thing is, Kevin Rudd will announce that Australia's going to put a man on the moon
or that he invented the internet. I mean, this is a man who likes symbols, he likes stunts, he puts
thought bubbles out there. Richard Walcott, who's supposed to create this Asian Union, was asked
two hours before the announcement whether he'd be prepared to do it. This is not Government; this
is spin, this is politics, this is trying to make sure you win the next election. It's not about
governing. And what I think Labor's discovering is that it's much easier to win elections, than it
is actually to govern.

CHRIS EMERSON: Does he take a breath?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: The public want you to get on with governing and start making some decisions.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: All right, we'll try and encourage Christopher Pyne to take a breath. Craig
Emerson, would you like to respond? There's a fair bit there.

CHRIS EMERSON: Well, of course I could rattle off about another six, seven, eight or a dozen
practical policies, for example, childcare tax rebate is being increased. Well, these are more -
these are more than symbols. These are not press releases.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: Well, not so much. Let's not list the practical policies because I think we've had
a few tonight. But I think what matters a bit more here, Craig Emerson, is perhaps getting to the
heart of what Christopher Pyne is suggesting, which is that there's a great deal of big
announcements. They seem to be made on the run, not with a whole lot of preparation, that creates
an impression of someone who's waving their arms a lot and making a lot of sound and movement, but
perhaps it not really amounting to a hill of beans. Does that concern you?

CHRIS EMERSON: No, it doesn't because we just brought down a Budget with a $22 billion surplus that
the Coalition, if it gets an opportunity in the Senate, is going to raid. It's going to take $22
billion out of the surplus. Now, these are real policies designed to put downward pressure on
inflation. Downward pressure on interest rates. And we've got this Mad Hatter's tea party, with
people like Christopher in it, you know, the March Hare and the Mad Hatter and the white rabbit all
saying we can have this never ending tea party; the more you spend, the more you have to spend;
that interest rates are somehow set not by the Governor of the Reserve Bank, but the gnomes of
Zurich in a faraway country called Switzerland. Now, this is fairytale economics and this is what
Christopher, and Brendan Nelson and Malcolm Turnbull are all advocating. So, when we get into deep
discussions about serious policy, we are releasing serious policy, a very serious Budget. And I
have no idea, no idea any more, Virginia, what the Coalition stands for, other than that they
oppose everything that Labor does. And I just now note that Christopher is opposed - and I assume
that's on behalf of the Coalition - to the payment of that $70 million for the development of a
hybrid car in Australia. I haven't heard Brendan Nelson say that, so you've broken some news
tonight, Christopher, on Lateline.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: Do you want to clarify your position, Christopher Pyne?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: No, I don't need to.

CHRIS EMERSON: No, no. No, no.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Craig Emerson is a master at triviality. He is a master at triviality. He was the
great guy who used to bring in bowls of milk into the Parliament to demonstrate various political
points when we were in Opposition - when he was in Opposition. The reality is that Government is
about ...

CHRIS EMERSON: Gee, that's a really relevant answer about the $70 million subsidy, Christopher.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Government, government, government is about policy, not press release. And the
Rudd Government is about putting out press releases. And as soon as you tried to put ...

CHRIS EMERSON: And a hybrid car is not policy?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: As soon as you tried to put them to proof, Virginia, he switched to, "Oh, the
Coalition doesn't stand for anything." What about answering the question you put to him.

CHRIS EMERSON: Well, you don't.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: And while you're on the hybrid car, you've just given $35 billion to a private
corporation, an overseas corporation, to produce a car that they announced was already going to be
produced and rolling off the production lines in two months time. And yet there are children who
can't get human growth hormone today for $200,000 for five children across the country to improve
their lives. You won't give them that money; instead you'll spend $35 million on a hybrid car that
was already being produced by Toyota. That's not good Government. That's just trying to grab a

CHRIS EMERSON: The head of Toyota refutes that. The head of Toyota refutes that and you do not know
as much as the head of Toyota does about the production of hybrid cars.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: The Government is headline grabbing and paying for bragging rights ...

CHRIS EMERSON: You're repeating yourself.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: ... on the Toyota car. It's a bragging rights $35 million.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: All right. I'm going to jump in here and actually try and cut down both of these
headlines if I can. And, I just want to change the subject for a moment. To finish, gentlemen, on a
completely different matter, Tony Abbott is quoted in The Australian magazine tomorrow saying that
the Pope won't be able to get his message across when he visits here very soon because we're such a
relentlessly secular society in Australia. I just ask you just very briefly, if you can, to reflect
on that. Christopher Pyne, are we a relentlessly secular society? And if we are, does it matter?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Australia is a relentlessly secular society. He's right about that. We are very
much a secular society. The connection to established churches in Australia today is much weaker
than it was 50 years ago or 25 years ago. So, he's definitely right about that.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: And does all of that matter to us, do you think?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, I think it matters from the point of view of the - those people who think
that religion is a very important anchor for values in our community and I'm one of those people.
I'm sure the Pope when he comes to this country will get his message across. I hope the media - I'm
sure the media will give him a very fair hearing and give him the opportunity to give the messages
to the Australian people - not just Catholics, but all Australians - that are important about the
church and about what the church believes in and about the values and morals that have been the
building block of our society.


CHRIS EMERSON: Yeah, I don't agree with that, actually. I think that there's a lot of people who
have and practice different faiths. There are obviously a lot of people in Australia practising the
Christian faith, and a lot of Catholics. I'm one of them. I think the Pope will enjoy an enormous
reception here - World Youth Day. I think it's an exciting time for young people. But for those
people who don't believe in God or in Christianity, well that's fine too. But I think that there is
a lot of adherents to religions in Australia. Perhaps not so much, Virginia, in terms of the old
traditional church attendance, but, I go to church most Sundays and it's pretty well attended, so
there's lot of people still going to church. But if people don't want to, that's their perfect
right. I wouldn't describe us as a relentlessly secular society at all.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: Well, gentlemen, on that very decorous note we'll end our conversation tonight.
Thanks so much for your company. Thankyou.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Thankyou for having me.

CHRIS EMERSON: Thankyou, Virginia. Bye-bye Christopher.

Sentences increased for child rape at Aurukun

Sentences increased for child rape at Aurukun

Broadcast: 13/06/2008

Reporter: David Curnow

Queensland's court of appeal has jailed five of the nine males who raped a 10-year-old girl in the
remote Aboriginal community of Aurukun.


VIRGINIA TRIOLI: Queensland's Court of Appeal has jailed five of the nine males who raped a
10-year-old girl in the remote Aboriginal community of Aurukun. Originally, all nine escaped prison
terms, a decision described by the court today as a miscarriage of justice.

In handing down the decision, the Chief Justice slammed the prosecutors and the District Court
judge who handled the case.

David Curnow reports.

DAVID CURNOW: Queensland's Chief Justice, Paul de Jersey, pulled no punches in handing down the
Court of Appeal's decision.

PAUL DE JERSEY, QUEENSLAND CHIEF JUSTICE: These errors were so serious as to produce a clear
miscarriage of justice.

DAVID CURNOW: The three adults and six juveniles all pleaded guilty to having sex with a
10-year-old girl in Aurukun in far North Queensland in 2006.

At the time, the prosecutor Steve Carter told judge Sarah Bradley the offences were "childish
experimentation" and "naughty". He asked for non-custodial sentences, a submission the judge

PAUL DE JERSEY: The prosecution must bear substantial responsibility for what occurred.

DAVID CURNOW: But, it wasn't only the prosecutor's fault.

PAUL DE JERSEY: The imposition of a proper sentence was ultimately the responsibility of the judge.

DAVID CURNOW: Justice De Jersey criticised the District Court judge for being too hasty in coming
to her decision, for not explaining why she gave such light sentences and treating the adult
defendants the same as the children.

Three of the males were adults at the time of the rapes. They've all now been sentenced to six
years prison and will serve at least two. Two of the youngest in the group were 13 and 14 at the
time - they were sentenced to two and three years detention respectively, but will serve half that.
Remaining juveniles were placed on three years probation, the longest period allowed. Convictions
were recorded.

KERRY SHINE, QUEENSLAND ATTORNEY-GENERAL: This has been a tragic case from start to finish and I'm
pleased that our system of justice has delivered the result that it has today.

PAUL LUCAS, ACTING QUEENSLAND PREMIER: Today's decision gives the little girl at the heart of this
case the justice that she deserves.

DAVID CURNOW: And child protection advocates say it's not just a victory for the victim.

HETTY JOHNSTON, BRAVEHEARTS: These kids, these young offenders have now, through this decision, got
access to rehabilitation and it's critically important to give them the opportunity.

DAVID CURNOW: Lawyers for the nine males say they may lodge an appeal in the High Court, a move the
Attorney-General has vowed to fight.

David Curnow, Lateline.

Now to the weather: That's all from us. If you'd like to look back at tonight's forum or review any
of Lateline's stories or transcripts you can visit our website. Tony Jones is back on Monday night.
I'll see you again next Friday. Goodnight.