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Tonight is long service leave for thousands of workers facing the IR high jump.

What the government has announced is long service leave announced is long service leave will drop
out of the award safety net.

Long service leave is going to be preserved absolutely going to be preserved.

New fears over an Australian institution as the Australian institution as the states prepare to
gang up on the government's workplace agenda.

We will do everything we can by whatever means we can as a government to protect the existing award

And, ork kes tral move nooners in the outback.

I am really excited.

the outback.

I am really excited. It nearly made me cry at one point.

The jam session bridging cultural barriers.

We found that the traditional musicians had been very keen to sit down with us.

This program is captioned live.

Concerns raised over preservation of long service leave

Concerns raised over preservation of long service leave

Reporter: Heather Ewart

KERRY O'BRIEN: The ongoing row over what will or won't be contained in the Federal Government's
industrial relations changes took a new twist today with unions and the Victorian Government
claiming long service leave was at risk for many thousands of workers. Last week, the lunch hour
and penalty payments for public holidays were in the public spotlight. Today, the Prime Minister
moved to try and hose down fears about long service entitlements, saying they would be preserved,
though he could not specify how. But the Federal Government is increasingly on the back foot with
the States and unions picking off one issue after another in the IR debate, as the Federal
Government struggled to get its new legislation drafted by October, as promised. The Victorian
Government says it would legislate to protect its own public sector employees, like nurses, from
losing any long-service entitlements. And when State and territories industrial relations ministers
meet in Melbourne this Friday, they are likely to declare a united move to challenge the federal
legislation - when it comes - in the High Court. Heather Ewart reports.

STEVE BRACKS, VICTORIAN PREMIER: There's no protections, there's no right to long service leave.

TERRY MAHER, CFMEU: Coal miners work long and hard and have had that entitlement since 1949.

STEVE BRACKS: You know, I think people will be pretty angry if they're on nine-to-fivers and this
legislation comes in and the employer says, "Well, sorry, the law has changed I don't require it."

TONY MAHER: We will fight every inch of the way to ensure we lose not one dollar.

LISA FITZPATRICK AUSTRALIAN NURSING FEDERATION: A lot of nurses have been ringing out lines asking
us what, for example, they should do. Their long service leave entitlement has fallen.

HEATHER EWART: It's on again. Last week the future of the lunch hour and extra pay for working on
public holidays with a focus of a concerted campaign to try to force concessions from the Federal
Government on industrial relations. This week, it's long service leave. With the Victorian Premier
leading the charge.

STEVE BRACKS: I'm here to announce with the industrial relations minister that we will do
everything we can by whatever means we can as a government to protect the existing award
entitlements for the 240,000 workers in Victoria.

HEATHER EWART: The Victorian Government plans to legislate to enshrine the entitlements of its
240,000 public sector employees, like nurses, who fear their generous long service leave provisions
are about to be halved by The Federal Government. Their union claims many are rushing to take a
crude long service leave right away, in case they lose it all together.

LISA FITZPATRICK: We can't, of course, afford to have every nurse with 10, 15 years' experience
applying for long service leave in the State. So it has created a lot of chaos and a lot of worry
amongst nurses who've been in the system working continuously for 15, 20 and 25 years.

HEATHER EWART: Since the 1950s Victorian nurses have traded off pay increases for improved long
service leave entitlements. They get 26 weeks for 15 years of service. But under the five new
minimum employment conditions foreshadowed by the Federal Government, long service is not included.

has announced is that long service leave will drop out of the award safety net. So that if you are
currently covered by Federal award that gives you long service leave rights, those rights will

HEATHER EWART: For nurses long service leave is considered the reward for a tough job and the union
argues many of its members are now wondering if their work is valued. Like this midwife who's
nursed for 22 years and says the conversation among her colleagues amounts to this:

CATIE BORTOLOT, MIDWIFE: Is nursing worth it? Because of our pay and our conditions, it's - there's
a hell of a lot of time invested in study and yourself as a person and thinking, "Have I made the
right decision?"

HEATHER EWART: Little wonder that the Victorian Government chose Nursing Federation headquarters
this morning to up the ante in its battle with the Federal Government over industrial relations
changes. Stressing that while it could protect nurses in public hospitals, there were no guarantees
for thousands of others in private hospitals and aged care homes.

STEVE BRACKS: Today with nurses, for example, if you could imagine a private nursing home, do you
think an employer is going to say, "Yes, we'll put it in even if it is not required"? This is up
for grabs now.

HEATHER EWART: So today, the Prime Minister found himself once again having to deal with another
bushfire in this debate. While the Government's legislation is still being drafted, all he could do
was offer these general assurances on Melbourne ABC radio.

ANNOUNCER: Long service leave not on the hit-list?

JOHN HOWARD, PRIME MINISTER: Long service leave will be preserved. Absolutely preserved.

ANNOUNCER: A lot of rumours floating around. We can't wait to see the detail.

JOHN HOWARD: I am sure you are, and when the detail comes people will realise what a scare campaign
has been conducted.

PROFESSOR ANDREW STEWART: It certainly seems that the Government hadn't thought through the issue
of what to do about long service leave or either that and they have thought it through and are
staying quiet about it.

HEATHER EWART: The Minister for Workplace Relations, Kevin Andrews, was unable to shed any light on
the matter either. His office said he was unavailable for an interview because of other
commitments, but he backed the Prime Minister's comments. The problem for the Government is these
issues just keep on cropping up one after another as part of a deliberate strategy by State
governments and the unions. Take the long service leave issue - it's not just confined to Victorian
nurses. With the union movement also targeting the coal industry in NSW and Queensland, claiming
25,000 coal workers risk losing their superior long service leave provisions and that a $300
million industry long service leave fund is in jeopardy, too.

TONY MAHER: The average miner with 20 years service has about $65,000 in that fund and if it guess
back on the award we fall back into the state legislation which is half the entitlement.

HEATHER EWART: This miner has worked at the same coal mine in Gunnedah in NSW for the last 28
years. On this day he's come to Sydney to discuss his worries at young headquarters.

ROSS WHITAKER, MINER: I would suggest that anyone who thinks we get more than we are entitled to,
they ought to go underground and have a look around and that will certainly change their views.

HEATHER EWART: Ross Whitaker has accrued long service leave and has never taken any of it.

ROSS WHITAKER: Run of the reasons I've accumulated so much over the years is I've used it as a de
facto health insurance for myself, that if ever I get hurt or I need the money there it is there.

HEATHER EWART: These are emotive arguments that resonate with other workers. And frustrated
employer groups, again with the absence of any detailed government legislation to promote, can only
insist the coal industry will maintain the status quo.

STEVE KNOTT, AUSTRALIAN MINES AND METALS ASSOCIATION: The overwhelming majority of employers do
that now and there's no appetite for a blue with coal mining unions over long service leave
entitlements in the coal industry. So that will continue to occur.

HEATHER EWART: Many employer groups are annoyed the debate has come to this, blaming the Government
for flagging its intentions for reform way too early in a May statement when the necessary
legislation was nowhere near ready.

STEVE KNOTT: In hindsight, we think the Prime Minister would have been better advised to make those
announcements a little bit later. This vacuum is being exploited left, right and centre.
Misinformation, anxiety and community concern.

PROFESSOR ANDREW STEWART: I think it is a mess. It's not clear to me that the Prime Minister and
the Minister for Workplace Relations had really appreciated just how much had to be worked through
with these reforms.

HEATHER EWART: The Government insists the target date to get its legislation into the Senate
remains late October. But many legal experts on industrial relations consider this an impossibility
because there's just too much work to be done to close off every legal loophole and avert
constitutional challenges. Already state governments are planning united action in the High Court
and this is said to be announced at a meeting of State and territory industrial relations ministers
in Melbourne this Friday.

STEVE BRACKS: We have not ruled out a High Court action against this proposed legislation. Of
course we need to see some more details, but that will be a matter, I'm sure, that will be
discussed this week.

REPORTER: The way it is heading, do you think united High Court action from the States is a
likelihood now?

STEVE BRACKS: I think there's a strong prospect of that.

HEATHER EWART: The Federal Government has been expected this. Still it has an added incentive the
take extra care with the drafting of its legislation. That could mean delays and that of course
gives more time to the critics to continue what so far has been a very successful campaign.

KERRY O'BRIEN: I should reiterate, too, that the Federal Industrial Relations Minister, Kevin
Andrews, was invited on to the program for that story, but declined.

Govt under pressure over Guantanamo trials

Govt under pressure over Guantanamo trials

Reporter: Tracy Bowden

KERRY O'BRIEN: The Federal Government is also facing calls to re-think its support of the American
military system that will try Guantanamo Bay detainee David Hicks. A date has not yet been set for
the trial of the Australian who has pleaded not guilty to charges of attempted murder, aiding the
enemy and conspiracy. But, as revealed yesterday, leaked memos from two of the Pentagon's own
military prosecutors suggest that Hicks will face a system with a stacked panel of judges, set up
only to convict. The revelations provoked a further expression of concern from the senior officer
on Australia's military bar, but the Government says the emails have been investigated and their
claims rejected. Shortly we'll speak to Foreign Minister Alexander Downer, but first Tracy Bowden
with a brief update.

PAUL WILLEE QC: When you've got the process with the military being the captors, the interrogators,
the people who lay the charges, who prosecute the offences and there is an executive watching over
them but no independent formal appeal process, then that has all the hallmarks of being a fairly
unfair system.

TRACY BOWDEN: Queen's Counsel Captain Paul Willee, the head of Australia's military bar, reflects
widely held legal misgivings about the military tribunal set up to try terrorist suspects at
Guantanamo Bay. Yesterday's disclosure of scathing emails written by military insiders has only
heightened that concern.

PAUL WILLEE QC: If the emails are true, even if the investigation has been carried out, I'm not
sure that it hasn't tainted the process. It certainly highlights the very evils that people were
pointing to in the beginning with that process.

TRACY BOWDEN: Captain Willee's comments, which he stresses are personal views, follow the release
of emails sent by two US military prosecutors. One of them, Captain John Carr wrote to his

"I expected there would be at least a minimal effort to establish a fair process and diligently
prepare cases against significant accused. Instead, I find a half-hearted and disorganised effort
to prosecute fairly low-level accused in a process that appears to be rigged."

TRACY BOWDEN: The Federal Government today tried to play down the significance of the latest

JOHN HOWARD, PRIME MINISTER: Our ambassador spoke again to the Pentagon last night, our time, and
the head of the Military Commission operation said that those allegations had been extensively
investigated over a two-month period.


JOHN HOWARD: Well, by the people against whom the allegations were made.

DAVID McLEOD, DAVID HICKS'S LAWYER: Clearly, this has has been a considerable embarrassment to both
the United States Government and of course, the Department of Defence. It's also a huge
embarrassment, I suspect, to the Australian Government.

TRACY BOWDEN: David Hicks' Australian lawyer, David McLeod, says if the allegations have been
investigated by the Pentagon, he'd like to see the results of that inquiry.

DAVID McLEOD: It's said to have taken some two months of careful investigation and so the
investigation report will obviously be long and detailed, and we ask the Government, we call upon
the Government, to call for a copy of both the investigation and the report.

TRACY BOWDEN: Melbourne barrister Lex Lasry, who was the Australian Law Council's official attorney
at Guantanamo Bay, says the chance of a fair trial for David Hicks is negligible.

LEX LASRY QC: If he can't be put before a proper military justice or civilian justice process in
the United States, then he should be brought back to Australia. No question. The Military
Commission's, for my part as a matter of opinion, are just simply not an option.

DAVID McLEOD: If the military process is determined to proceed, then we would like to see the rules
that apply to military courts martial in America adopted by the Military Commission. It's as simple
as that.

Downer backs Guantanamo military commissions

Downer backs Guantanamo military commissions

Reporter: Kerry O'Brien

KERRY O'BRIEN: A short time ago, I spoke to Foreign Minister Alexander Downer in Adelaide.

KERRY O'BRIEN: Alexander Downer, the critics in the David Hicks case just don't go away, do they?
In fact, after nearly four years they seem to keep growing and they all pretty much say this cannot
and will not be a fair trial. Why does none of that sway you?

ALEXANDER DOWNER, FOREIGN MINISTER: Well, first and foremost because of our concern about Mr Hicks
himself. We've never made any secret of this. We have at the moment a struggle against terrorism
and terrorists. The advice we've had, including from our intelligence agencies, is that Mr Hicks is
a dangerous person. He's been involved in training with Al Qaeda. He was picked up on the
battlefield in Afghanistan and he's facing within the context of the American military commission
very serious charges, including a charge of attempted murder and conspiracy to cause war - to
commit war crimes. Now, I mention all of those things because that is an endeavour by me to put
this all into some context. We are very concerned about him. If he were to be returned to Australia
the advice we have is that he would be released because we wouldn't be able to take any action
against him under our anti-terrorism legislation because that didn't come into force until after
his activities in Afghanistan.

KERRY O'BRIEN: But does that mean he's not entitled to a fair trial and by the mere assertions that
you make now you are virtually branding him as a guilty man?

ALEXANDER DOWNER: Well, this of course isn't new what I'm saying. This has been said on many
occasions before, including by people like the director-general, former director general now, of

KERRY O'BRIEN: But he still hasn't had a fair trial. He's an Australian citizen.

ALEXANDER DOWNER: Let me just explain, though, because it's a fair question you ask. He was seized
- I think I am right in saying - by the Northern Alliance, by the American and coalition ally, the
Northern Alliance in Afghanistan, as a combatant. But he was not of course part of an army within
the meaning of the Geneva Convention. So he was an unlawful combatant sized in those circumstances.
Now, combatants in war are held and they are of course detained for the duration of the war. Now,
in this case he was an unlawful or illegal combatant, not being part of an army in the part of the
Geneva Conventions, and so as a result of that he's been detained, but -

KERRY O'BRIEN: But that is what he is to be tried for. That's a charge that's still could be heard

ALEXANDER DOWNER: No, no. I'll explain to you what the charges - that's not right. The charges that
have been brought... the reason he's been detained is, was because he was an unlawful combatant
along with all those other people who've been detained in Guantanamo Bay. The charges against him
are charges - and I'm not saying he's innocent or guilty of these charges - but the charges against
him are attempted murder, conspiracy to commit war crimes and fighting as an enemy against the
United States.

KERRY O'BRIEN: Let's go through the critics -

ALEXANDER DOWNER: They are the charges that have been brought against him.

KERRY O'BRIEN: Let's go through the critics systemically. First the two military prosecutors. Not
one, but two, people charged with building the prosecution case against Hicks and others who have
said they wanted out of that process because the process was thoroughly corrupted. The Hicks trial
rigged. Presumably, that didn't help their careers. So they must have felt pretty strongly about
that. But that hasn't given you any cause for concern?

ALEXANDER DOWNER: Well, it gave us - of course I hadn't and I don't think Philip Ruddock had been
aware of these emails which go back - these emails were apparently sent in March 2004.

KERRY O'BRIEN: Last year.

ALEXANDER DOWNER: Yeah, last year. What we've done is gone back to the Americans and asked them for
an explanation. The Americans have told us, and we just got a reply back from them, or at least a
cable from our embassy in Washington during the course of today, the Americans have told us that
they had a full investigation into the allegations made in those emails, including by the Inspector
General of Defence, there was a very thorough, a very thorough investigation into these allegations
because amongst the material in these emails are very serious allegations. And um, the Americans
have told us that those investigations cleared the Military Commission process. So that -

KERRY O'BRIEN: This was the military investigating itself, Mr Downer, against serious charges of
corrupting the process.

ALEXANDER DOWNER: This is the sort of argument that it doesn't matter who the investigator is
unless it's the ABC, no-one's ever going to take them seriously. I mean, I think the Inspector

KERRY O'BRIEN: Mr Downer, with respect, I think to bring the ABC into this, that sounds a little

ALEXANDER DOWNER: The Inspector General of Defence in the US is somebody you can take seriously. I
don't think we're going to get into the game of smearing his integrity.

KERRY O'BRIEN: No, let me just get this straight. You do agree with me -

ALEXANDER DOWNER: They take these allegations seriously.

KERRY O'BRIEN: This is the military investigating the military and finding the military cleared of
these serious charges. Did they, for instance, say what the motivation was of the two prosecutors?

ALEXANDER DOWNER: I'll be frank with you, you are trying to make a political point and I think
you're trivialising the American military in this way. This was a proper investigation, including
by the Inspector General of Defence. This was a serious investigation into these allegations and
they have cleared the Military Commission process of the allegations made in these emails.

KERRY O'BRIEN: And did they say what the motivation was of the two of prosecutors?

ALEXANDER DOWNER: Maybe I could just explain what the investigation revealed that there were
personnel issues which apparently - which aren't really any of our business - but there were
personality issues, personnel issues, which had led to these expressions of view coming from these
two prosecutors. Now, that is apparently what's happened in this case. But we have gone back to the
Americans. We have asked for an explanation as to what's in these emails and that's the information
that we have been given.

KERRY O'BRIEN: Now this is what the head of Australia's military bar Queen's Counsel and navy
captain Paul Willee had to say today about his ethical concerns about the Pentagon's military
commissions. This is quite apart from his concerns about those emails. This is about the process of
the Military Commission's. Quote: "The process is very much akin to the process we, Australia,
abandoned after the World War II because it denied people the access to evidence, denied them the
ability to cross-examine those who made the the statements used against them and generally flies in
the face of all of the rules of fairness that we've developed over the last 50 or 60 years." He's
the head of Australia's military bar, a QC and senior member of the armed forces, although here
speaking personally. That doesn't move you either?

ALEXANDER DOWNER: No, look what we've done here...I think I've explained to you first of all what
we think are the gravity of the charges against Hicks. Secondly, we've obviously worked very
closely with the Americans as this military commission process has evolved. After Mr Hicks was
formally charged, which from recollection was in about June of last year, there was a hearing in
August of last year. We had officials from both my department and the Attorney-General's Department
attend that hearing and we as a result of that, or the officials as a result of that, made some
recommendations for modification of the Military Commission process and for clarification and as a
result of that some modifications were made that we were satisfied with. So I think in terms of the
broader issues of the fairness of the military commission, it has to be said that not just the
Government, but our officials are happy with the process, bearing in mind -

KERRY O'BRIEN: Well, the Australian Law Council, which as you know, sent Lex Lasry QC also to

ALEXANDER DOWNER: ..Yeah, I know this.

KERRY O'BRIEN: ..those first hearings at Guantanamo and still to this day the Law Council and Lex
Lasry himself are convinced that David Hicks can't get a fair trial under that process. That's
Australia's peak law body, and in fact Lex Lasry says since that time, today now, David Hicks has
even less chance of a fair trial than he had when your, the government's observers were over there
looking for some modifications.

ALEXANDER DOWNER: We're, not surprisingly, we don't agree with - I mean, this is a free society.
People are entitled to their own..

KERRY O'BRIEN: This is the Law Council. This is Australia's peak law body.

ALEXANDER DOWNER: People are entitled to their analysis. Let me make this point to you, that
recently in the case of Handon vs Rumsfeld in the US Court of Appeal, the whole military commission
process was brought into question. The US Court of Appeal, which obviously is a federal appeals
court, a civilian court, considered the military commission process and ruled that the Military
Commission process was appropriate in the circumstances of these people. That is, we're talking
here about people who've been detained as combatants, as unlawful combatants, and have been
involved with Al Qaeda.

KERRY O'BRIEN: Alexander Downer, thanks for talking with us.

ALEXANDER DOWNER: It's a pleasure.

KERRY O'BRIEN: I guess we all look forward to the date of a trial.

with al-Qaeda.

Alexander Downer,

Orchestra collaborates with Top End musicians

Orchestra collaborates with Top End musicians

Reporter: Murray McLaughlin

KERRY O'BRIEN: Efforts to promote reconciliation with Aboriginal Australia have taken many and
varied forms. None quite so unusual, though, as a trip to Arnhem Land by the Australian Art
Orchestra, a 20-piece band formed more than a decade ago by the pianist and composer Paul
Grabowski. Grabowski's group has been widely recognised for its collaboration with music cultures
of other countries. Now it's trying to mix with traditional Aboriginal music at a remote Top End
community, ultimately to produce a collaborative work. Murray McLaughlin reports from Arnhem Land.

MURRAY McLAUGHLIN: Visitors to the Arnhem Land township of Ngukurr have never been so obvious.
These men are jazz players from down south and their musical strength is improvisation. Tonight on
the dance floor at Ngukurr, they were also going with the flow.

PAUL GRABOWSKI, AUSTRALIAN ART ORCHESTRA: We did that with seriousness of purpose, albeit total
ineptitude, but I was talking to one of the elders this morning and he said it was enormously
significant that we did that last night. It was a sign to them that we were willing to go wherever,
do whatever, be whatever.

MURRAY McLAUGHLIN: Paul Grabowski, composer and conductor, founded the 20-member Australian Art
Orchestra in 1994. It began as a large jazz ensemble that Grabowski has since taken into more
adventurous worlds of cross cultural collaboration. The orchestra has worked and toured with
musicians from Bali and South India. Now Grabowski wants to explore Australian Indigenous music.

PAUL GRABOWSKI: We found that the traditional musicians have been very keen to sit down with us and
start teaching us about what they do. What I'm hoping is that we'll together be able to create a
work over time in which we are equals, which is a reflection and a record of the specific

MURRAY McLAUGHLIN: The Australian Art Orchestra has come to Ngukurr with Aboriginal performer
Archie Roach and Ruby Hunter. Paul Grabowski has worked with the couple to produce a show called
Ruby's Story, a tale in song and music of Ruby Hunter's life as a Stolen Generation child.
Grabowski's latest venture into traditional music has caught Archie Roach's imagination.

ARCHIE ROACH, SINGER/SONGWRITER: I'm really, really excited. It nearly made me cry one time because
actually professional musicians are actually playing the music from the people, rather than
musicians arranging music for didge or clapstick.

MURRAY McLAUGHLIN: Till their visit to Ngukurr, the Art Orchestra musicians had only remote
experience of Aboriginal music.

TONY HICKS, BASS CLARINET: It's a different language, so put yourself anywhere on the planet with a
language you don't understand and I think you get some kind of idea about how we were. These guys
have a different understanding of time.

JAMES GREENING, TROMBONE: It's hard to understand from a Western point of view. Their differences
in subtle variations and developments. It's not really overt. It's a language, you know and, it's
like, so to learn it takes years and years and years.

JULIEN WILSON, SAXOPHONE: Yeah, there's so many different things going on at once that I'm not
accustomed to, that it's trying to work out what to remember first when we're learning pieces, so
there's a lot of steps.

MURRAY McLAUGHLIN: What's it been like having the orchestra here learning those songs?

BENJAMIN WOOLFORD: Fantastic, we've been working with them. That's good, fantastic.

EDDIE CHISOLM: These boys, they got an ear for music, you know, same like this orchestra. They're
able to pick up singing and playing different rhythms quite easily. They're working off each other
really good.

BENJAMIN WOOLFORD: Yeah, good one. Really fantastic. So we might do that one tonight.

MURRAY McLAUGHLIN: After two days at Ngukurr, the visitors have surprised themselves. They've been
able to get their heads and their instruments around a couple of traditional songs, enough for Paul
Grabowski to risk a new opening act to the performance of Ruby's Story.

PAUL GRABOWSKI: I didn't know how far we were going to get, but I didn't think we'd have something
to perform. I mean, I was hoping that, you know, there might be some tentative kind of noises being
made, but, no.

JOHN O'DONNELL, SOUND ENGINEER: It's extraordinary. It's kind of like with this band, it's just an
extraordinary group of people that musically don't seem to have any kind of fear or notions that
they can't do something. They sit down there and they go, "That's a challenging piece of music to
improvise to," yet somehow they create beautiful music.

KERRY O'BRIEN: Nice to see there are always new frontiers in music.

Murray McLaughlin with that report. And that's the program for tonight. We'll be back at the same
time tomorrow, but for now, goodnight. Captions by Captioning and Subtitling International.