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(generated from captions) have the right to speak, but it

doesn't mean they are

right. Why do you think it's

happening at this time, sorry

to focus your attention on what

is happening in this part of

the world, it isn't only in

Australia. George Mombio wrote

in The Guardian, that people

like yourself, policymakers and

scientists are starting to lose

the argument to climate change

sceptics. There's a growing

shift in populous sentiment, do

you see that at all I don't

share that judgment of George

Mombio, I think you are seeing

ahead of Copenhagen, climate

sceptics and deniers turning up

the volume, but not the quality the volume, but not the

of the argument or that they

have found anything new to say.

It's the old stuff recycled and

it's confusion. This is old

preventing energy leaving the strong science, greenhouse gasS

earth, that warms up the earth,

causing climate change,

causing climate change, the

greenhouse gas are going up.

There'll be fluctuations op top

of this trend, fluk takeses

from El Nino when the warm

water comes to the service to water comes to the service

La Nina, when the colder water

comes. Those fluctuations will

take place and have been.

There's an underlying, clear,

strong trend because greenhouse

gases are going up, and up,

because human beings are

releasing them, more than the

earth can absorb, it's trapping

the energy. It's simple basic

science. You may not like the

laws of gravity, but that

doesn't mean you can levitate.

This is simple stuff. You are

an economist, not a scientist.

What do you believe, what do

you say is the best instrument

for a National Government to for a National Government

reign in emission, is there

such a thing? I think we have

to act across the board. A

strong price for greenhouse

gases, people should pay for

the damage they do. They pay

when they use other people's

labour that is used to make a

car, or to make a male, they

pay for the imports, and should

pay for the conditionsness of

their action through climate

change, that's a key - results

of their action through climate

change. Australia is a highly

sophisticated tech nological

country, it knows a lot about

mining, it could do well in

carbon capture and storage,

strong support for technical

process is a key part of the

story, and strong support for

other countries, particularly

the poor of the world h in

order to help them make these

kinds of changes. We have to

act in these kinds of ways

across a number of areas,

there's no-one single economic

policy, but we can be clear

about the combination of

economic policies that are

necessary. Do you have a

particular belief, for example,

that an Emissions Trading

Scheme as the EU has, as they

are talking about bringing in

the United States United

States, is the best effective

way of doing this or should a

carbon tax be considered as an

alternative. I think different

countries will go different

routes, many will combine the

two. Sweden and France are

combining a carbon tax with European combining a carbon tax with the

European Union Emissions

Trading Scheme, that trading

scheme doesn't cover scheme doesn't cover all

emission, but about 40% and you emission, but about 40% and

can use a carbon tax for the

other areas. So I don't think

we should turn it into a horse

race between trading schemes

and carbon taxes, they can

combine well. The crucial thing

is people should pay for the

consequences of their action,

this is about getting markets

to work, to ignore it is to

encourage market failure,

putting these in place is to putting these in place is to

get markets to work well. Those

of us who are arguing for

carbon tax or in combination

with a trading scheme - I think

you need both actually for

different parts of the economy

- we are arguing for markets to

work well, we are pro market.

Those trying to attack these

things don't understand market

economics. Let me ask you this,

if the nation's represented at

Copenhagen produce a set Copenhagen produce a set of

emissions reduction targets

during the next few weeks, how

long would you expect it to

take to reach a verifiable

international treaty. I think

the first step is the key one,

that you just referred to,

which is to get the key targets

in place in terms of a

political agreement and an

organising framework. If we do

that, it has to be done that, it has to be done by

Prime Ministers and presidents,

they look across the whole

sweep of the economy, and this

covers so much of the economy.

If it's done at this level, I

think the Environment Minister,

the Finance Minister Ministers

and their representatives

could, over 6-9 months work out

the details. Finally, you made

a plea for political leaders to

take a stand here, to in a way

to go beyond their national

interests. Do you think that

will actually happen? I think political leaders will

understand that their national

interests lie in collaboration,

Australia, for example, is

extremely vulnerable to climate

change. Populations live on the

coast, and we are all going to

see sea level rides which we

have to control by cutting back

on our - rise, which we have to

control by cutting back

emissions, it's in Australia's

interests to have a strong

international deal, they are

prone to desertification, by

acting strongly Australia will

promote a strong international

deal. Collaboration and taking

the lead in rich countries is

actually in the rich country's

interests as in the of the whole interests as in the interests

of the whole world.

Nicholas Stern, we are out of

time. We'll have to leave you

there, we know you have got to

do a press conference talking

about these issues, thank you

for taking the time to talk to

us again tonight. Pleasure to

talk to you, good luck to all

my friends in Australia.

Time for a quick look at the weather now:

That's all from us, Lateline

Business coming up in a moment.

But if you'd like to look at

tonight's interviews with tonight's interviews

Christopher Pyne, or Nicholas

Stern, or review stories or

transcripts, you can visit the

web lite. Abc.net.au/lateline.

Now here is Lateline Business

with Ali Moore. Tonight - the

politics of emissions trading leaves business in the

dark. They would be satisfied with an Emissions Trading Scheme providing it was a Scheme providing it was a pure Emissions Trading Scheme,

without compromise, we have had

enormous compromises and

recently there's been more,

making it almost worthless.

We know we need a price on

carbon and the longer we wait

we risk a volatile transition,

it's time to get on with it. Metcash hammers home its

hardware strategy. All the

homework we have done indicates

it won't be earnings dilutive,

it won't destroy earnings or

value for the shareholders.

To the markets, and today's

interest rate rise had little

impact on equity investors, impact on equity investors, the

All Ords adding a third of 1%.

The ASX 200 gained 17 points,

in Japan the Nikkei rallied

2.5% on hopes Bank of Japan

will pump prime the will pump prime the economy.

Hong Kong's Hang Seng's rose

1.3%, and in London the FTSE is

up 1.5% as concerns over

Dubai's debt problems

dissipate. As we heard on Lateline, the Reserve Bank

increased interest rates for a

record third straight months,

it's a vote of confidence in

the economy from the Reserve

Bank, for business struggling

to access credit, it's another

blow. Home owners haven't been

spared, Westpac shocking the

markets by raising its mortgage

rate by close to double the

official increase. Neal

Woolrich reports. It was a

predictable decision with a

predictable response from

business. We are concerned, we

believe the economy is

fundamentally week, we haven't

seen the pick up in business

investment or the pick-up in

employment. Interest rate

increases detract from

affordability, people's

willingness to enter into mortages, we can't be

happy. The Reserve Bank says

the risk of a serious economic

contraction in Australia

passed. That's prompted the

unprecedented step of three

consecutive interest rate

rises, the latest 25 basis

point increase takes the

official catch rate to 3.75%. I

think the Reserve Bank is going

to continue raising rates in a

gradual setting, it looks like

quarter of a per cent are on

the cards for early next year,

they talk about the fact that

the housing sector is an area

that certainly seems to be

concerned. House prices have

risen significantly. But the

day's biggest interest rate

surprise came from Australia's

biggest bank. Westpac has

raised its standard variable

home loan rate by 45 basis

points, 20 basis points more

than the RBA's increase. Cost

of funds increase are we wish

they prchbility but they are.

We have had to face up -

weren't, but they are, we have to face up to

to face up to that. The

question is whether major

lenders will follow Supreme Court I'm sure they'll wait,

less us take the flak, but will

make a move at some stage. As I

said before, they may or may

not match what we have done.

This is a longer term game. If

they don't move this time, they

may next month. Westpac's

business customers have been

spared the extra charge. Rates

on Westpac's business loans

will increase a quarter of 1%

in line with the RBA's move a

departure from earlier in the

crisis where home owners shared

a bigger share of the rate cuts

than borrowers, firms worry

about the lack of credit.

Figures released showing

business lending fell by more

than 1% in October. Where money

was available for builders to

do developments of their own,

it's stopped. That has been a

concern, it's diminished

concern, it's diminished the

amount of housing available to

the market. We are concerned, there's no sign of

there's no sign of improvement

in the future. But the RBA

says:

The rate rise will be another

hurdle for the manufacturing

industry, which is barely into

its recovery. its recovery. The Australian

Industry Group's performance of

manufacturing index fell by

half a point to 51.2 in

November suggesting that activity in the sector is

growing, but at a slower pace

than before. New orders are

modestly improved, but a

telling factor, I think, is the

level of inventories now, that

is not increasing to any great

extent, which would indicate to

me that manufacturers are being

cautious in terms of how much

product they are making. And

consumers may be cautious in

terms of how much they spend

this Christmas. For a look the

the market reaction to today's

interest rate rise, and the

rest of the trading day I spoke

earlier to Marcus Padley, at earlier to Marcus Padley,

Patersons Securities. Today's

rate rise probably wasn't as

much of a surprise as the market's rally market's rally afterwards. No,

there was a comment after the

Dubai issue that we may not Dubai issue that we may not get

a rate rise because of a rate rise because of that.

There was upgraded GDP numbers,

suggesting that we would need a

rate rise. The abiding factor

is there was no meeting in

January, we have to go two

months so the RBA upped rates,

the Aussie dollar fell, they

didn't say anything in the

statement to say they would be

continuing to put rates up.

Brokers expect the occasional

pause next year, and rates to

be 4.5% by the halfway through

the year, and 5 at 5.25% by the

end of the year, and - but

there's a suggestion we won't

see a rate rise because Westpac put their rates up 45 basis

points on the back of today's

rate rise making themselves

popular, but if the banks do

the hard work, the RBA might

stop moving interest rates

around. Company specific news

China's biggest listed

goldminer launched a half a

billion bid to indoe fill, the

market lapped it up. Indoe fill

was bid for by Xstrata, they was bid for by Xstrata, they

are selling to the Chinese,

it's a commitment by the

Chinese to large copper gold

project. It's a natural

progress, $5.2 billion, you

need a big player. The Chinese

shares in Hong Kong went up 5%,

as did inder fill, it's joy all

around as the Chinese face

resources. Lend Lease secured a ?1.5 billion development

project in London, did

investors like that. They investors like that. They did,

Lend Lease up 9%. They have

won the backhand 1.5 million regeneration for elephant

castle in the middle of London.

An area I know well, I won arm

wrestling championships at

elephant castle. Nice to elephant castle. Nice to know

it will be redeveloped,

knocking down work starts in February, they won't get

planning permission for a few

years, building in a few years,

good for sentiment, not the

numbers, but the market liked

it. 1 December, what sort of a

month do you think it will be. December, usually December

is a good month, as we

anticipate January. It's anticipate January. It's the

Santa Claus rally in the Santa Claus rally in the US,

where everybody buys ahead of

January, it's the time when the

new money in the US is supposed

to arrive, get invested, it's a

good month, people buy in

December ahead of it I wouldn't

take the superstitious rubbish

into account in making decisions, let's hope it

companies and we have a nice

rally into Christmas. Marcus

Padley, thank you for your

Christmases in 2009. It's been

my pleasure. The other major

movers on our market, and the

Commonwealth led the banks

higher, closing up 2%. Asciano

jumped 4% after the

infrastructure group won a half

billion contract. Agricultural

chemical supplier New form fell

more than 3%, after close of

tried they confirmed Sinochem's

takeover has been delayed.

Wesfarmers dropped 1.5%.

Well, with the event of

today in Canberra, the

of the today in Canberra, the future

of the Government's Emissions

Trading Scheme looked shaky at

best. With the legislation

unlikely to get through the Senate. So what does business

think of a delay or even the

death of the legislation at

this critical juncture. For

their thoughts I was joined in the studio earlier in Sydney the studio earlier in Sydney by

Dick Warburton, an advisor to

the Government on tax issues

director, and a long-serving company

director, and Nathan Fabian,

from the group, and in Canberra

by the Minerals Council's Hook

. Gentlemen, welcome

Lateline Business. The one . Gentlemen, welcome to

thing we do know is that the

future of the Emissions Trading

Scheme is now uncertain,

although it seems very unlikely

that it will get through the

Senate. This means double

dissolution, or nothing at

least until next year, Dick

Warburton, if I can ask you,

you had a 4-person Government

committee advising on industry

compensation under the Government's Emissions Trading

Scheme, is this good for

business. The delay on this - I

think it is good for business.

It certainly doesn't give the

certainty that business wanted,

it's a question of whether you

want good or bad certainty, I

think what is good about it is

that hopefully we'll get into

good debate on the key issues,

which I'm happy to talk about

later , which we have not had

debate, there's been an appall

ing lack of debate on the two

key issues. How does that sit

with your willingness to take a

seat on the issue and work with

issues with the Government It

doesn't, it's a committee

looking at the process,

defining the activities of defining the activities

firms that will get permits, it's a process driven

committee, nothing to do with

policy at all. It has your view

on the Emissions Trading Scheme

- has your view changed. It's

hardened, having got on the

committee I decided to learn a

lot more about it. Over the

last 9 months I have read acid

usely, on the IPCC argument and

the other argument. I can see

what I think is a clearer path

forward than what we've been

going from. Mitchell Hooke,

you've been a vocal critic, do

you agree with Dick Warburton,

there's been a lack of debate,

and now is the time I do, I

agree with Dick on the first

point, the cause of certainty

for business will not be served

by forcing us into a position

where we have something that is

not going to work and is

flawed: the second thing is I

think the debate needs to be

focussed on how we can get Emissions Trading Scheme in focussed on how we can get an

place that will give us a

carbon price in a carbon

constrained world, but provide

sufficient flexibility to ramp

up the disciplines as

technology comes on board, new technologies, and as we get

further down the track in

getting a global protocol in

place, if we set out on a path

pitching us way in front of the

world, all that will happen is

we'll hit our economy with an

economic baseball bat in the

hope that the rest of the world

will play catch up. It's a vein

hope. Nathan Fabian, that is an

argument we have heard

Mitchell Hooke throughout the argument we have heard from

debate. Is the time for

discussion past We have been

debating these issues for

years, for a decade in

Australia. The policy options Australia. The policy

have been discussed. We know we

need a price on carbon, the

longer we wait we risk a

volatile transition, it is, in

fact, time to get on with it.

It's colourful language to take

a baseball bat to the

Australian economy, but we know

that the arrangements that were

negotiated last week are very

modest in terms of the impact modest in terms of the

of the price on carbon, on many

sectors in Australia, and many

others were excluded from the

scheme. This is a - this was to

be a low and slow or low and

steady start, now, we have a

delay with an uncertain

future. Would you say that this

is better than nothing, put

this in place to give business

certainty Investors would

always say it's better to have

a clear regulatory regime so we know what rules we are dealing

with, if we open a debate to an

investors are, it sounds like

happy years of concentric

circles on what may or may not

be possible, it's better to have an understanding of the

clear rules, so they can get on

with plans. It's broader than

that, talking about a scheme to

look at carbon. There's five

different streams we are

looking at, the first is a an event, climate change, no-one

disputes, I don't, that

disputes, I don't, that there's climate change, the second

distram is the cause, the

scientific cause. If you

listen to the IPCC and certain

policitians, one prominent one,

they say the science is

settled, well, it is not

settled. There are many

scientists who completely

contradict those of the IPCC. Haven't we moved IPCC. Haven't we moved past

this point We haven't. It has

not been debated properly. The

IPCC will not debate the

science, I tried to do it

myself, and so it's about time

we did have that debate

properly. The third stream is

the solution, and is the solution an Emissions Trading

Scheme, or is it a carbon tax

or some other solution. You are

not questioning the need to do

something. No, I am not because

with the science not settled, I

believe you should take a risk

management approach or

insurance approach and I

believe we should do

believe we should do something, in a risk management process

you don't jump to the most

extreme risk that you have and

apply programs to to the

extreme risk, that is what we

are doing it. Nathan Fabian,

let's not debate the science,

if you accept we need a risk

management approach, is it not

to say why jump to this extreme. I wouldn't say it's

extreme, I would say it's

modest. What we need is a

mechanism, a framework allowing

a pricing of carbon risk, we

have a modest target, if

Australia moves without its

global competitors, we have a

high assistance level to

industry. That equates to a

modest start, and it seements

like a sensible risk management

- seems like a sensible risk

management approach. The idea

of delaying equates to less

risk is anom louse. Mitchell,

what makes you confident that

future negotiations will give

you any better scheme for your

constituents. If I quote to you from 'The Australian',

aluminium council, they say

this ETS deal addresses a lot

of our concerns, we'd rather

see it go through, we can't see

the circumstances emerging

where we would deliver a better outcome It's second-guessing the politics, our position is

that we have to get the

policies right. I agree with

Dick, that is there needs to be

an understanding about what are

the solutions. If Nathan thinks

this is a modest start, he

needs to have a good look at what Europe is doing and

America. Is there a first mover

advantage or a second

mover. Well, obviously it's in

most countries' interests if

everyone moves together. If you

don't get everyone moving

together it makes steps not to

be last. The issue for

Australian investors is capital

is mobile. We'll invest where

we see the opportunity, our

colleagues in Europe and even a

lot in the US understands this,

and can see the emerging investment opportunities and

Australian investors will look

at those closely. Capital is

mobile. In a globe awash with

natural resource, miperral

resources, capital will move to

where it's strategically

deployed effectively. Don't kid

yourself that that eiates to

competitive strength or

there'll be a flow of dollars,

we'll see carbon leakage if we

are saddled with costs our

competitors are not. There's no

prizes for unilateral

disarmament. How do you address

the argument of carbon

leakage. There'll be transition

to other countries in some industries, from a industries, from a Government's point of view or

point of view or Australia's

point of view, maybe there is a

concern with loss of jobs in

some industries, unless we take

a whole of economy broach

approach though this issue we

will not reduce emissions, it's

important to have a starting

point somewhere. It seems point somewhere. It seems that

we are having a debate that is

bizarre when we've had bizarre when we've had an

Emissions Trading Scheme on the

table. I feel that it's back to

the future this, is a

discussion that we have either

had or should have had a long

time ago, to have got to the

point where we are today. We

have, there's been changes

since the previous Government

introduced introduced the Emissions

Trading Scheme, in fact, it Trading Scheme, in fact, it was

John Howard who said, I think

backed up by Peter Shergold and

Garnaut, that they'd be satisfied with

satisfied with an Emissions

Trading Scheme, providing it

was pure, without compromises,

we have had compromise toss it,

and recently more, that's made

it almost worthless. It's a

bastardised scheme where it

wasn't in the

beginning Exactly. Importantly

there's education needed,

there's big debates in the

political circles, but how much

has come out to the public as

to what this means to them, to

us, what does it us, what does it entail.

Downing Street the Government bear responsibility, how much

do you put at the feet of Government. Very much at the

feet of the Government. This is

the time when it has not been done. Therefore there is time

to do it now by delaying this

vote until we get a sensible

debate going. A debate on these

issues. One of the things we

haven't discussed is the

possibility of a double dissolution, the possibility that an Emissions Trading

Scheme will get through via

that method. You are in

Canberra, how likely do you

think that is as a response if

this is knocked on the head in

the Senate. You are starting to

get into the realm of get into the realm of politics,

I don't know what will happen,

I hope the Government will look

at this, whether they have the

numbers, numbers in the Senate

on the back of a double

dissolution, that's presuming

that they will have the

numbers, that also has to numbers, that also has to be

very much a matter for the

Australian electorate. But

presuming they have the numbers, I hope the Government

would address what is in the

national interests. If there is

a double dissolution. Do you

think it's likely. I don't

know, I'm with Mitch, it's a political decision, I don't

know what Rudd will

do. There'll still be a period

of time where it will be open

for debate and discussion, the

Coalition, they'll have to come

out and debate it thoroughly

and properly, you'll see the

debate. The practical

consequence is investors will

wait, wait and see, they won't

start exploring renewable

energy technologies or explore

the technology in the mining

sector that Mitch says is

important, and it is, they'll

see what the price outcome in,

that causes the risk much

volatility later. Dick

Warburton, can we afford a

delay. I believe we can, delay. I believe we can, part

of the reason is the rest of

the world is not ready for the world is not ready for it,

we have seen that. If you go to

the UK and Europe, they are struggling, the United States

have not approved it and are

unlikely before the end of the

coming year, the first mover

means you are not only first,

but out in front of the pack.

It's a case of action or

action. If you have a carbon

price going to the bottom line,

if you don't have the

technologies to deploy, you

have to have them aligned, you

have to have a global protocol

making sure everyone is

swimming in the same direction,

there's no point being hairy chested about global

leadership, forcing a cost on

the Australian industry that it kept absorb or respond kept absorb or respond to,

Nathan Fabian, it's two against

one, I'll give you the last

word. We have to look at the

broader issue - where is the

economy going, and the globe

going on reducing emissions. If

we can't make it possible we can't make it possible to

reduce edues emissions and make

money ouz of business and

investment, we have a - out of

business and bestment. We have

a problem. We need to align

those two. Something tells those two. Something tells me

it will be a while and we'll

have this debate happy times

before we get there. Thanks

gentlemen for joining Lateline

Business.

The Chief Executive of Grossry wholesaler Metcash is

out selling the group's

takeover bid for struggling

hardware change Mitre 10, Rydes

says Metcash is the natural

owner of Mitre 10, and is

confident is can have the same

success with independent

hardware stores as hardware stores as with

Independent Grocers. Andrew

Robertson reports. Mitre 10 is

in a mess, sales are falling,

profits evaporating and profits evaporating and underperforming stores are

bheeping closed. Only

bheeping closed. Only the

Commonwealth Bank 's general -

being closed, only being closed, only the

Commonwealth Bank's generosity

in not callinging in a loan is

keeping the company solvent.

Against that background Metcash

sees a big opportunity. All the

homework indicates that it

won't be earnings dilutive, it

won't destroy earnings or value

for the shareholders. It won't make money make money in the first year,

just a bit. But in the 2-3s,

when the Metcash guys and teams

add value to Mitre 10, that is

the earnings coming with that. Metcash's offer to buy half Metcash's offer to buy half of

Mitre 10, with a view to 100%

ownership down the track faces

competition from a private

equity firm. Andrew Reitzer

refused to say if he'll

increase the bid. If it's

success ful Citi Investment

Research analyst Craig Woolford

believes there'll be challenges

in a sector about to become

more competitive. It will be

about improving the

formalisation of the banner,

ensuring the standards of every

store are up to scratch, making

them viable to compete with a

new entrant in Woolworths and

Bunnings. Metcash upveiled a

37% increase in half year

earnings to 109 million, based

on a 6% rise in sales to 5.7

billion. The company lifting

dividends by 10% toe 11 cent a

share. Metcash delivered

another solid result reflecting

the business that they are, a

grocery wholesealer, steady

sales growth and profit growth,

that's what they have

done. Being that type done. Being that type of

business means Metcash is

taking today's record third

consecutive interest rate rise

in its stride. It won't have an

impact in our business, we sell

every day groceries and basic

staples, not discretionary

items, I doubt it will have an impact. Metcash's result had an

impact on investors, they

weren't impressed marking the

stock down 2% on a day when the

ASX 200 went up. Before we go a

look at business news in the

sections of tomorrow's

newspaper. 'Herald Sun' reports

on the cost to business of delaying or rejecting delaying or rejecting the

Emissions Trading Scheme. 'The

Australian' - Westpac's 45

basis point rate rise. 'Australian Financial Review'

examines Tony Abbott's victory,

saying the Coalition is bracing

for an early election for an early election on

climate change, 'Sydney Morning

Herald' says investors still

have not been able to claim $15

billion frozen in mortgage funds during the financial

crisis. That is all for

tonight. FTSE is trading up 89

points, 1.7%, Dow futures show

an opening up 66 points or 0.6

of 1%. I'm Ali Moore, goodnight.

Closed Captions by CSI

This program is not subtitled

'Father - they say that he passed away of pneumonia. But we...we think that... (LAUGHS) We think that he passed away because he was HIV positive.

'I myself was involved with young man who became the first South African man to be held up for manslaughter

for purposely infecting six women with AIDS.'

'I don't think about death but I'm thinking of a future for me and for my children.' CONTEMPORARY PERCUSSION It is with great pride that I now declare the Sixteenth International AIDS conference officially opened. Merci beaucoup. APPLAUSE AND CHEERING No matter where she lives, who she is or what she does, a woman should never need her partner's permission to save her own life. We are beyond words, beyond talk, beyond commitments. It is time for the real thing. We have our first and perhaps our only opportunity to move the AIDS response into an entirely other league. SINGING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE 'MAN: (FOREIGN WORDS) ..turning over a lot faster. On the death certificate is incurable headaches, stomach aches, but...you know, for us here in South Africa life goes on.' 'WOMAN: ..is that we must empower women about men using a condom. Educate men.' 'WOMAN: The citizens are not taking responsibility for themselves, and it's not just a black thing. This happens across ALL of our communities. So the AIDS virus will never go away, never.' PEOPLE TALK IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE Welcome to my house in Lamontville. We're gonna meet my auntie there. (WOMAN SPEAKS IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE) We stay for a long long time in Lamontville. She came when my mother passed away. And I like my mother because she do everything for me. If I need something, she give it to me. And...and... And I like him very so much and she like me.

'They were jealous about my mother because she was gonna be married.' PEOPLE CHATTER DISTANTLY And then they took my mother to the doctor...and other... My other granny told me my mother's dead. Yes. I didn't talk to my mother. I didn't say...I couldn't "Bye-bye." And my mother was telling me she gonna give me good luck. TOGETHER: "Inside Shrek saw hundred of bottles. Look under..." 'She treat me like... (SNIFFS) ..is mo...my mother. Every time, if we sleep, she says "Zama, "let's pray for our mothers." I say, "OK. We pray. We say things..." (SNIFFS) CONTEMPORARY PERCUSSION 'My father passed away on May 23rd. Um... He liked girls, and he was... He's never ever done anything for us. My mother always did things for us. This is my mother. And this is my cousin, Jabulo. 'My cousin's staying with me because both his parents passed away.' Yeah. It is very difficult. I'm raising three kids by myself. Plus my...nephew. At the end of the month I make approximately 3,000 to 4,000 or 4.500, and I'm raising three kids. I pay rent here. It's 2,250. Plus...I'm taking care of them, they go to school. I pay for the lights. I buy clothes for them, I feed them by myself. 'I hardly had any sleep last night. I'm going for an interview for... I hope... I hope it's gonna be my new high school. It's Grosvenor Girls' High. Um... But I'm excited and nervous at the same time. I just want to start afresh because I'm... Most of the children in our school are not going there, so I just want to start like... a new life. I want be an architect.' PERSON SINGS IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE PIANO PLAYS 'My name is Velele. How can I help you?

This is The Salvation Army.'

This is where I stay and this where I work. 'I am a mother of seven children. After four years I never seen them. I find myself changed.

Even the people around me, they always say, "Something changed." Of course, something changed because I've been baptised three months ago.

I'm HIV positive. I don't think about death, but I'm thinking of a future for me and for my children.