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Tonight - big jail terms for five men plotting terror attacks in Australia.

You kill us, so you will be killed. You bomb us, so you will be bombed. This is an overly
simplistic but reasonably accurate summation of the mindset of each of the offenders of this trial.

This Program is Live Captioned.

Good evening, welcome to 'Lateline', I'm Leigh Sales. We'll have the Australians Newspoll in a
moment with good news for the Government. That's later. Also tonight - we'll look indepth at the
latest the latest military operation in Afghanistan, the first of the Obama Administration new
surge policies, and the largest Coalition attack since the Taliban fell in 2001. To discuss that
and other defence issues, including cyberterrorism our guest is the United States Deputy Secretary
of Defense William Lynn. He'll join me live from Canberra, but first the other headlines. At least
20 people die in a rush hour train hour train crash near the Belgian capital. Europe Correspondent
Philip Williams will join us shortly. A 13-year-old boy charged with murder after a schoolyard
stabbing of a fellow student in Brisbane.

Five jailed in landmark terrorism trial

Five jailed in landmark terrorism trial

Broadcast: 15/02/2010

Reporter: Philippa McDonald

Five men convicted of plotting a terrorist attack on Australian soil have been sentenced to up to
28 years in jail.

Transcript

LEIGH SALES, PRESENTER: Five men convicted of plotting a terrorist attack on Australian soil have
been sentenced to up to 28 years jail.

The judge said each of the men still held extremist views and posed a danger to the community.

The jail term's the longest for terrorism-related crimes in Australian legal history, as Philippa
McDonald reports.

PHILIPPA MCDONALD, REPORTER: For two years the five men conspired to commit a terrorist attack on
Australian soil, stockpiling chemicals to make bombs, weapons and tens of thousands of rounds of
ammunition.

ANTHONY WHEALY, NSW SUPREME COURT: The intended purpose of that act or those acts would be to
instil terror and panic in the Australian community.

PHILIPPA MCDONALD: Justice Whealy said the five men between the ages of 44 and 26 had been
motivated by violent jihad, believing Australia was at war with Islam because of its involvement in
Iraq and Afghanistan.

ANTHONY WHEALY: "You kill us, so you will be killed. You bomb us, so you will be bombed." This is
an overly simplistic, but reasonably accurate summation of the mindset of each of the offenders.

PHILIPPA MCDONALD: And the judge said it was not a case of if but when a terrorist attack was
likely in early 2006.

When the men's homes in Sydney's south-west were raided, police uncovered large amounts of
extremist material, including bomb-making videos, DVDs glorifying the September 11 hijackers and
brutal images of the treatment of hostages

ANTHONY WHEALY: The video files in the two groups included a number showing the execution of
hostages or prisoners by Mujahedeen. These were particularly brutal, distressing and graphic. It is
impossible to imagine that any civilised person could watch these videos. So disturbing were they,
that none of the executions was shown to the jury.

PHILIPPA MCDONALD: The judge said that each man held on to these extremist views and remained
dangerous and committed terrorists with no prospect of rehabilitation. He sentenced the five to
between 23 and 28 years in jail.

As soon as their sentences were handed down, the five convicted terrorists smiled and two men at
the back of the court waved and called out in Arabic, "Be patient, Allah is with you."

Their supporters were shocked at the severity of the sentences.

SUPPORTER: 23 years - that's half of his life! That is half of his life. This is not fair. This is
not fair; this is not fair to our community, not our religion.

TONY NEGUS, AFP COMMISSIONER: They seem to be very substantial and again I applaud the courts for
their consideration of the matter.

PHILIPPA MCDONALD: Lawyers are considering an appeal.

LAWYER: We got 28 days to decide.

PHILIPPA MCDONALD: A special security classification means that the five will serve their time with
fewer visitors and phone calls than other prisoners.

Philippa McDonald, Lateline.

At least 25 killed in Belgium train collision

At least 25 killed in Belgium train collision

Broadcast: 15/02/2010

Reporter: Philip Williams

At least 25 people have been killed in a collision between two trains outside Brussels in Belgium.

Transcript

LEIGH SALES, PRESENTER: In breaking news, at least 20 people have been killed in a head-on
collision between two trains just outside Brussels in Belgium.

For the latest on the disaster I'm joined now from our London bureau by Europe correspondent Philip
Williams.

Phil, do we know exactly what happened?

PHILIP WILLIAMS, EUROPEAN CORRESPONDENT: Not really, but the first reports indicate that there were
two trains on the same track at a town called Halle, just south-west of the capital, about 15
kilometres south-west, that one train was pulling out of the station.

As it was pulling out, another was barrelling in, and they have collided. And as you can see from
the graphic pictures, those two trains met and climbed over each other.

The impact is obviously very, very severe. The death toll we're told now is possibly 25 and
climbing. And we still don't know exactly how many are injured. It'll be some time because of the
severity of that particular impact as to when we know exactly how many people have been killed and
injured.

LEIGH SALES: Horrible pictures, Phil. If these were packed carriages, you'd have to imagine that
the death toll is going to climb even further.

PHILIP WILLIAMS: Absolutely, and it was peak hour traffic, these trains were packed, and we've
heard some eyewitnesses from people that were on those trains saying that the impact crushed
everyone together.

One man said that the - as the train was leaving the station, it was lucky that it was actually
only travelling at a relatively slow pace, 'cause it was just pulling out of the station, but the
other train coming the other way was clearly doing quite a speed, you can tell by the impact.

And it's hard to imagine that there won't be many, many more injuries and deaths. This is a very
serious crash. There hasn't been such a serious crash in Belgian since 2001.

How this came to be, how the same trains came to be on the same track will no doubt be subject to
great investigation, but at this stage we simply don't know what went wrong.

It was snowing, but not snowing heavily. Whether that had some impact on the points, on the
signalling, whether there's a signalling failure or a train driver simply ignored or didn't notice
a signal, we just don't know yet.

But we do know that it's going to be a very, very serious outcome, because already, as I say, 25
dead we think and an unknown number of injured, but that will certainly be in double figures.

LEIGH SALES: OK. Phil Williams, we'll obviously learn more on this tomorrow. Thankyou very much.

Afghan civilians killed in NATO strike

Afghan civilians killed in NATO strike

Broadcast: 15/02/2010

Reporter: Hamish Fitzsimmons

The deaths of 12 Afghan civilians has overshadowed a NATO operation in the southern Helmand
province.

Transcript

LEIGH SALES, PRESENTER: The early success of a NATO operation in southern Afghanistan that started
on the weekend has been overshadowed by the deaths of 12 civilians in a town in Helmand Province.

While the combat stage of Operation Moshtarak has just begun, NATO's been working with locals for
weeks to encourage them to turn their backs on the Taliban.

What makes this campaign different, according to NATO officials, is that a civilian administration
will be quickly installed once the region has been secured.

NATO's Commander in Afghanistan has called it "a government in a box", as Hamish Fitzsimmons
reports.

HAMISH FITZSIMMONS, REPORTER: Over the weekend, NATO forces pushed into Taliban strongholds in
southern Afghanistan.

Operation Moshtarak's commanders are surprised at the lack of resistance.

LARRY NICHOLSON, COMMANDER OF US MARINES, SOUTHERN AFGHANISTAN: I think it's going very well. I
think, you know, it's only day two; I don't want to get ahead of ourselves, but we're optimistic
that we're on timeline, maybe a little bit ahead of timeline. We've been surprised by the amount of
IEDs we've found. There has been no shortage of IEDs, probably even more than we had thought.

HAMISH FITZSIMMONS: Overnight, 12 civilians were killed in the town in Marjah when NATO rockets
missed their insurgent targets. So far, seven Coalition soldiers have died.

Operation Moshtarak was weeks in the planning and well publicised, which gave Taliban forces the
chance to flee or blend into the countryside, which NATO expected. It's has been working with local
councils, asking people what they want rather than imposing what it thinks they want.

NEIL RILEY, CULTURAL ADVISOR, 1 ROYAL WELSH REGIMENT: Rather than clear up the mess after we've
fought a battle, we can avoid it from the start by making the right contacts in an area and by
convincing people that we are coming to bring peace rather than fighting, which is what we know
that they want.

HAMISH FITZSIMMONS: The United States says that this operation is different to others, that
civilian infrastructure and services will follow hot on the heels of combat operations.

NATO Commander US General Stanley McChrystal calls it "a government in a box, ready to roll in."

Despite the fact the government in the box will be led by an Afghan official returning to the
country after 15 years in Germany, the US insists locals are the priority.

MICHAEL MULLEN, CHAIRMAN OF THE US JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: This is not focused on the Taliban, and
it is a strategy that will not just clear the area, but that will hold it and then build right
behind it. So there's a civilian component here and there's a local governance piece which is going
to be installed immediately as well.

HAMISH FITZSIMMONS: The town and district of Marjah has been identified as a major Taliban base and
centre of opium production. Afghan officials have been trying to secure support by preventing
bloodshed.

HAJI MOHAMMAD ANWAR, CHIEF OF HELMAND PROVINCIAL COUNCIL (voiceover translation): The Governor
asked the people, with the approval of the Interior Minister, to establish a council from the
religious elders to get in touch with the Taliban, in order to guarantee the lives of those who
want to lay down their weapons and don't want to fight.

HAMISH FITZSIMMONS: While the vast majority of the 15,000 troops in the operation are British and
American, Australian troops are playing some role.

Australian Defence is as usual tight-lipped on the whereabouts of Australia's 1,300 personnel in
Afghanistan, but the BBC overnight showed at least one Australian officer in the NATO operations
room at Kandahar airbase.

Not far from the current offensive, Afghanistan's southern neighbour is understandably nervous
about what effect Operation Moshtarak will have in the border regions where the Pakistani
Government is waging its own war against local Taliban.

YUSUF GILANI, PAKISTANI PRIME MINISTER (voiceover translation): We were concerned about that, that
if there is a surge in the south that can destabilise Afghanistan. We have taken care of
everything.

HAMISH FITZSIMMONS: Once NATO forces have taken areas like Marjah, the Afghan military and civilian
authorities will begin to take over security and try to prevent the Taliban from reclaiming their
former stronghold.

Hamish Fitzsimmons, Lateline.

Faulkner in talks with US defence heads

Faulkner in talks with US defence heads

Broadcast: 15/02/2010

Reporter: Leigh Sales

The US Deputy Secretary of Defence, William Lynn, joins the studio prior to tomorrow's talks with
Australian Defence Minister John Faulkner.

Transcript

LEIGH SALES, PRESENTER: The United States Deputy Secretary of Defense, William Lynn, is currently
in Australia for, among other things, a meeting tomorrow with Australia's Defence Minister, John
Faulkner. He joins me live tonight from Canberra.

Thanks for being there, Mr Lynn.

WILLIAM LYNN, US DEPUTY SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Happy to be here.

LEIGH SALES: Let's start with the new push in Afghanistan. We just heard that 12 civilians have
unfortunately been killed. Given the hearts and minds aspect of this operation, how significant a
setback is that?

WILLIAM LYNN: Well, you hate to see any loss of civilian life, and as you said the population is
really the prize in this effort, so it isn't a good thing. But hopefully we can continue to make
progress and there won't be any further civilian casualties.

LEIGH SALES: Coalition and Afghan commanders advertised this mission well in advance of it taking
place. What was the goal of that?

WILLIAM LYNN: Well I think the goal is - the target here is to try and bring the civilian
population underneath the Government. The direct goal isn't to kill the Taliban or destroy the
Taliban, but to bring that population under control.

So by advertising in advance that there was gonna be an operation, the hope was that the Taliban
would disappear and not fight and that we could move in and begin the shift of governance over the
population.

LEIGH SALES: And where would the Taliban go though if they fled and does that potentially create
problems elsewhere?

WILLIAM LYNN: It could, and you're not gonna be able to stop with this one operation, but
ultimately the population here is the prize and if we're able to put the majority of the population
under the control of the Afghan Government, the Taliban itself will start to wither.

LEIGH SALES: So how do you go about building trust in that environment, particularly when you have
had a situation such as the explosion that's killed these 12 people?

WILLIAM LYNN: Well I think the important thing here is to try and minimise the violence against the
Afghan population, but then the next step is to bring them true governance, to bring them a
government that's effective and ultimately transfer the provision of their security to Afghan
forces - Afghan forces that they can trust.

LEIGH SALES: Well part of the Coalition plan is to set up a government as quickly as possible. How
is that going to be done?

WILLIAM LYNN: Well, there's been a lot of planning that's gone into this and as your report said,
General McChrystal described it as "government in a box", and all the people are identified,
hundreds of people and actually thousands of police are prepared to follow right in behind the
military force so it's completely seamless and integrated.

LEIGH SALES: How do you know though that the locals will be happy to have that government imposed
sort of externally on them, if you like?

WILLIAM LYNN: Well it's hopefully not imposed externally. We've been working with the elders and
the governance bodies in the area, working them through how this is gonna go, and what frankly is
in it for them. And we're hoping that this'll bring a broad acceptance to the effort.

LEIGH SALES: When you were saying before that the goal of giving the advance notice was so that
Taliban would leave the area, what about civilians? Have they remained there or have they also
fled, fearful of what might happen? What's happened there?

WILLIAM LYNN: Well, some have fled, but far fewer than in previous operations, and I think upwards
of 90 per cent of the population has remained in place, and that seems to be a good sign that
there's at least some initial acceptance of the effort.

LEIGH SALES: How difficult is it in these sorts of environments where there's very limited
communications? How for example do you spread the message to civilians that OK, it's safe to come
back here, there's a government in place? How does that message get out when there's in many places
not even electricity?

WILLIAM LYNN: Well you work with the local governance bodies, you work with the elders, you have to
work it one neighbourhood at a time, one village at a time and you have to reach as many people as
directly as you can.

LEIGH SALES: So it's that sort of a one-on-one effort to sort of spread information?

WILLIAM LYNN: I don't know if it's quite one-on-one, but it's at least, you know, group-by-group,
neighbourhood-by-neighbourhood, and the hope is that they spread the word.

LEIGH SALES: Under a counter-insurgency strategy the idea is to clear, hold and build. The holding
part has proved the most difficult in Afghanistan. Is it fair to say that in the case of this
operation, it's not so much about the battle but about what happens from here on?

WILLIAM LYNN: Well I'd add a word to your phrase there: it's clear, hold, build and then transfer.
We want to transfer, first, the authority of the government to the local government and ultimately
the security mission to the local armed forces and the police.

LEIGH SALES: And is that the most difficult part of the operation? I'm wondering, is the most
difficult aspect of this operation something that lies ahead?

WILLIAM LYNN: I think that's probably right. I think that's the piece that's gonna be the most
challenging, it's the newest, but it's the linchpin of the strategy.

LEIGH SALES: So obviously this strategy depends a great deal on President Karzai and the Afghan
Army stepping up.

WILLIAM LYNN: Well I think the whole success of the Afghan strategy does depend on the Afghan
Government stepping up and assuming the role and being able to provide the governance and reduce
any kind of corruption and ultimately provide the security for the population.

LEIGH SALES: Well late last year the US Ambassador to Australia, Karl Eikenberry wrote a number of
cables to the State Department and one of them warned that President Karzai was not an adequate
strategic partner and, "Karzai continues to shun responsibility for any sovereign burden whether
defence, governance or development. He and much of his circle don't want the US to leave and are
only happy to see us invest further." What do you think of Ambassador Eikenberry's assessment?

WILLIAM LYNN: Well, I think that President Karzai has taken a number of steps since his election to
bring better governance, to reduce corruption, to appoint competent ministers. In think those are
all constructive steps, but there has to be the follow through on those promises for us to be
successful.

LEIGH SALES: Is the capture of Osama bin Laden still a top priority for the US Government? Because
we don't hear people talking about it so much these days.

WILLIAM LYNN: It's certainly a priority to ultimately capture bin Laden, but it's not the focus of
operations like the one that your report described.

LEIGH SALES: Surely though in terms of sending a message and winning over the civilian population,
that would be a very important symbolic occurrence, would it not?

WILLIAM LYNN: It would certainly be an important occurrence, but the focus here is on the situation
in Afghanistan itself. We don't think bin Laden is in Afghanistan. And it's to set up the
government of Afghanistan to truly rule its people and protect its people and provide the kind of
services that they should expect.

LEIGH SALES: Regarding the current offensive, what role are Australian forces take in support of
the British and US forces?

WILLIAM LYNN: Well, they're a part of this. But as you know, the central Australian effort has been
in Uruzgan and they've been doing a terrific job in that province, both in terms of the direct
military operations as well as the mentoring of the Afghan forces. And as I said earlier, it's the
transition of the security to those Afghan forces that's really the key to long-term success.

LEIGH SALES: You're due to meet with the Australian Defence Minister John Faulkner tomorrow. Given
the Obama administration's surge in Afghanistan, how keen is the United States to see Australia
support that surge with additional Australian troops?

WILLIAM LYNN: Well we're very satisfied with the current Australian effort and we think they're
doing, as I said, a fine job.

LEIGH SALES: You wouldn't like to see more?

WILLIAM LYNN: Well, the decision on additional forces is always a sovereign decision, but there's
no pressure at this point on the Australian Government in that way.

LEIGH SALES: The US has been having some issues with Japan over the continuing presence of a base
in Okinawa. Would the US like to see more bases in Australia, given the closeness of the alliance?

WILLIAM LYNN: Well the US-Australian alliance has been in existence for over 100 years and we've
been together in every fight and we're - right up to the current one in Afghanistan, but I don't
think there's current thinking about additional basing opportunities at this time.

LEIGH SALES: Another of topics that will be up for discussion with Senator Faulkner tomorrow is
cyber terrorism, on which you'd like to see greater co-operation between the US and Australia. What
exactly are you looking for?

WILLIAM LYNN: Well, the question of cyber security is something that transcends borders. There's
really no sovereignty on the internet. So international collaboration, particularly collaboration
between two allies as close as the US and Australia is critical. It can help in terms of shared
warning, it can help in terms of understanding the nature of the threat, it can also help in terms
of sharing technologies to meet that threat.

LEIGH SALES: So is collaboration the extent of what you're after?

WILLIAM LYNN: Collaboration is certainly the central focus of what we're talking about in terms of
co-operation between the two countries in the cyber area.

LEIGH SALES: In a speech on the weekend you said that the US Defence Department computer networks
are probed thousands of times a day. By who, and is it possible to give any sort of profile of the
average cyber terrorist, if there is such a thing?

WILLIAM LYNN: Well there really isn't. One of the real characteristics of the cyber threat is the
diversity that that threat can take. It can extend anywhere from foreign countries, their
intelligence agencies, down through criminal organisations, terrorist organisations and even
individual hackers. And each of those can have substantial capabilities and even those with modest
resources can pose a threat.

LEIGH SALES: So of the thousands of times a day that the Defence Department's being hit, is any one
of those groups responsible for a majority of the hits?

WILLIAM LYNN: I don't think we've laid it out that way. We think that probably over 100 foreign
intelligence organisations are involved, but there are also thousands of "hack-tivists", if you
will, and there are even criminal organisations. So it's a real diversity that these attacks come
from.

LEIGH SALES: And which are the foreign countries that are involved?

WILLIAM LYNN: Well, as I said, there are many. We haven't - we don't make individual accusations,
and one of the real challenges of the cyber world is the difficulty of making final judgments in
terms of attribution. They can go through so many waypoints in so many different countries. As I
said, sovereignty is really not present on the internet. So it's difficult to attribute any
individual attack to an individual attacker.

LEIGH SALES: Google threatened to quit China last month, partly in response to claims that state
sanctioned hackers had stolen Google's corporate secrets. Does the Pentagon think that that's
credible, that the Chinese Government could be involved?

WILLIAM LYNN: Well we certainly hope not and we think one of the keys in the cyber area is that
nations such as China play a constructive role.

LEIGH SALES: A report last year by the US defence company North Rock Grooman found that attacks
against the US and other countries were very focused and often sought China-related policy
information, and it concluded that, "Such attacks were beyond the capabilities or profile of
virtually all organised cyber criminal enterprises and were difficult at best without some type of
state sponsorship." In those cases of state-sponsored cyber terrorism, is there really much that
the US can do about that, given what you've said about the difficulty of being able to track it
back?

WILLIAM LYNN: Well I think defences in the cyber world, you wanna think about it in three levels.
First is just good computer hygiene. You want your individual users to download the patches, to
keep their security software up to date. That's the first level.

The second level you wanna have defences at the network level, network intrusion devices, firewalls
and the like.

And then at the third level you need more active defences, defences that are looking out at the
threats you face, looking at the signatures of different threat vectors and trying to anticipate
them. So, we think you need all three levels to have an effective cyber defence.

LEIGH SALES: There's a type of war game exercise going on in Washington tomorrow involving the
White House and the FBI simulating a cyber terror attack. What are authorities hoping to get out of
that?

WILLIAM LYNN: Well, it's - what we'd like to see is a better understanding both of the kinds of
attacks that can be undertaken, as well as what the appropriate responses are, and many of the
things in the cyber world are not as well understood as we'd like them. Just, for example: what is
an attack? Is it an intrusion in your computer? Is that an attack? Does it have to cause damage?
Does it have to cause loss of life? When is an attack an attack?

LEIGH SALES: William Lynn, the US Deputy Secretary of Defense, thankyou very much for making time
to come and speak to our audience tonight.

WILLIAM LYNN: Well thankyou for having me.

Coalition's poll resurgence continues

Coalition's poll resurgence continues

Broadcast: 15/02/2010

Reporter: Leigh Sales

The Opposition's resurgence appears to be continuing, according to the latest Newspoll findings.

Transcript

LEIGH SALES, PRESENTER: The Government appears to have halted the Tony Abbott-led resurgence for
the Opposition, according to the Newspoll to be published in tomorrow's Australian newspaper.

The Rudd Government has improved its position by one point on a two-party-preferred basis to be now
standing at 53 points, up from 52 a fortnight ago, while the Opposition has slipped a point to 47.

But on the issue of who would make a better Prime Minister, Kevin Rudd has fallen from 58 to 55
points over the same period, while Mr Abbott has picked up a point to be on 27.

Federal Government faces litigation over insulation bungles

Federal Government faces litigation over insulation bungles

Broadcast: 15/02/2010

Reporter: Emma Griffiths

The Federal Government now faces legal action from a man who survived electrocution in the bungled
foil insulation scheme.

Transcript

LEIGH SALES, PRESENTER: One issue the Opposition had been hoping would keep them on a roll in the
polls is the continuing scandal over the Government's foil insulation scheme. The Coalition set its
sights on Peter Garrett again today, accusing him of neglecting the issue by failing to attend an
emergency meeting of stakeholders in Canberra.

And, for the first time, the Federal Government is facing legal proceedings from alleged victim of
the insulation scheme. Lawyers for the man predict more people will join the push for compensation.

From Canberra, here's political reporter Emma Griffiths.

EMMA GRIFFITHS, REPORTER: Colin Brierley still lives under the roof that nearly killed him.

COLIN BRIERLEY, LITIGANT: Time will tell.

EMMA GRIFFITHS: Last September the 63-year-old climbed up there for a look and knelt on electrified
foil insulation.

COLIN BRIERLEY: Obviously I received an electric shock that actually went in the knee and came out
of the top of the head.

EMMA GRIFFITHS: He's now launching the first legal proceedings against the Federal Government
stemming from the insulation program. He says the accident has affected his memory and balance and
given him chest pains.

ROGER SINGH, LAWYER: He was living proof to the Government of the risks associated with the
insulation program.

COLIN BRIERLEY: I don't want to it to happen to anybody else, I really don't.

EMMA GRIFFITHS: The Opposition's called for urgent action to inspect the 48,000 homes that could be
affected.

GREG HUNT, OPPOSITION ENVIRONMENT SPOKESMAN: We want a plan within the next 48 hours and we want
action completed within the next two weeks to discover and repair all of the deadly roofs.

EMMA GRIFFITHS: And it's again targeted the Environment Minister, criticising him for going bush to
make a biodiversity announcement when they say he should have been in Canberra attending a meeting
with the unions and insulation industry.

TONY ABBOTT, OPPOSITION LEADER: For Mr Garrett to be off in some national park when people's homes
could be lethal thanks to his policy, I think indicates that he has completely lost touch.

PETER GARRETT, ENVIRONMENT MINISTER: I don't go to technical experts meetings in the ordinary
course of events. My officials go to those meetings, as they should. They'll provide me with the
appropriate reports for them and I'll listen very carefully to those discussions that have been
undertaken.

EMMA GRIFFITHS: One of the key stakeholders at the meeting urged Mr Garrett in October to
immediately withdraw the Government rebate for metal insulation products. The letter was sent after
the death of an installer and warned, "... the potential for further fatalities cannot be dismissed
...".

Nearly four months later, after more deaths, the rebate was suspended. Now the master electricians
say foil should only be used in new housing.

MALCOLM RICHARDS, MASTER ELECTRICIAN: Foil insulation's gonna be very difficult to put in the
ceilings with existing wiring in a safe manner and so we have a number of issues around placing
that in the ceiling.

EMMA GRIFFITHS: And there are still questions about the training regime for new installers, even
from within.

BRIAN TIKEY, FOIL INSULATION ASSOCIATION: We've probably gone from some 250 known installers right
across the country to some 7,000 installers. So where did they become experienced overnight?

EMMA GRIFFITHS: The ABC has obtained documents that raise more questions about the scheme. They
show that one business operating in Brisbane switched from being a telemarketer to home insulation,
and within weeks of being approved as an accredited supplier by the Federal Government, one of its
workers was killed trying to install foil into a roof.

The company says that staff member was working for a subcontractor at the time.

Emma Griffiths, Lateline.

13yo charged over school stabbing

13yo charged over school stabbing

Broadcast: 15/02/2010

Reporter: Kirrin McKechnie

A 13-year-old boy has been charged with murder after a school yard stabbing north of Brisbane.

Transcript

LEIGH SALES, PRESENTER: A 13-year-old boy has been charged with murder after a schoolyard stabbing
north of Brisbane. A 12-year-old fellow student suffered critical chest wounds during the fight and
couldn't be revived.

The school students and teachers have been offered counselling, while the Queensland Government has
ordered a review of security at schools across the state.

From Brisbane, Kirrin McKechnie reports.

KIRRIN MCKECHNIE, REPORTER: Just 12 years old.

MICHAEL CARROLL, SCHOOL PRINCIPAL: This has been a tragic loss of young life.

KIRRIN MCKECHNIE: Before the bells rang to start the school day, police say Elliott Fletcher was
involved in a schoolyard scuffle. The grade eight student suffered critical stab wounds to his
chest when another student pulled a knife.

LES HOPKINS, QLD POLICE: To the best of our knowledge there were only two people involved. As to
the causes and how that came about, that's obviously part of the investigation.

KIRRIN MCKECHNIE: He was rushed to hospital but died a short time later. A 13-year-old boy was
found near the college grounds with minor injuries. Police have tonight charged him with murder.

LES HOPKINS: There are a number of students interviewed and to date it's still being ascertained if
there were was any actual witnesses and what they actually saw.

KIRRIN MCKECHNIE: The school, north of Brisbane, immediately went into lockdown, but the emergency
measure was reversed a short time later.

MICHAEL CARROLL: That procedure has ensured all students were safely cared for until we were
satisfied that no danger remained to any student.

KIRRIN MCKECHNIE: Students and teachers at the small Catholic school are receiving counselling.

ANNA BLIGH, QLD PREMIER: For this sort of tragedy to happen is just unimaginable, and my thoughts
go out to the family as I think the thoughts of every Queenslander will.

KIRRIN MCKECHNIE: Throughout the day, shocked parents collected their children from the school.
Onlookers offered their thoughts on the tragedy.

VOX POP: It's terrible. I don't think that - I don't know, did it happen 100 years ago, this sort
of thing?

VOX POP II: Maybe computer games are having a big effect on it 'cause they're watching it
constantly.

KIRRIN MCKECHNIE: It's the second stabbing involving Brisbane students in the past 10 days. The
Queensland Government is now reviewing school security.

ANNA BLIGH: We'll be certainly look at the arrangements for school security as a result of this
incident, but I do think it's important today to remember that there is a family heartbroken with
grief.

DAMIEN BRENNAN, EDUCATION CONSULTANT: Schools are part of the broader fabric of society and what
we're seeing has happened in the last few days is really a reflection of the society within which
we live, and that idea that violence solves problems.

KIRRIN MCKECHNIE: Classes will resume as unusual tomorrow, but the school community is likely to be
haunted by Elliott Fletcher's death forever.

Kirrin McKechnie, Lateline.

Aussie protester detained on whaling ship

Aussie protester detained on whaling ship

Broadcast: 15/02/2010

Reporter: Leigh Sales

An Australian protester is being detained on a Japanese whaling vessel after climbing aboard the
ship.

Transcript

LEIGH SALES, PRESENTER: An Australian protester's being detained on a Japanese whaling ship in the
Southern Ocean after climbing aboard the vessel.

Protester Pete Bethune boarded the Japanese ship early this morning and tried to carry out a
citizen's arrest on the captain.

Australian Greens leader Bob Brown says he supports Mr Bethune's actions.

BOB BROWN, GREENS LEADER: Here is the courage of Sea Shepherd in the absence of the Australian and
New Zealand governments. And you gotta take your hat off to this man, his courage, his devotion to
the whales and his simple fearlessness.

LEIGH SALES: The protester was also trying to deliver a $3 million bill to the Japanese captain for
the sinking of the Ady Gil. The protest boat sank earlier this month, after clashing with a
Japanese whaling ship.

A spokesman for the whalers says Mr Bethune has committed an illegal act of piracy.

To the weather, rain and storms for Brisbane, showers in Sydney and Melbourne. Storms for Darwin,
dry and sunny in the other capital cities. That's all from us, 'Lateline Business' coming up in a
moment. If you'd like to look back at the interview with William Lynn, or review the stories or
transcripts, visit the website and you can follow us on Twitter and us on Twitter and Facebook, now
'Lateline Business' with Whitney Fitzsimmons.