Note: Where available, the PDF/Word icon below is provided to view the complete and fully formatted document
Disclaimer: The Parliamentary Library does not warrant or accept liability for the accuracy or usefulness of the transcripts.These are copied directly from the broadcaster's website.
Lateline -

View in ParlViewView other Segments

and your lack of bovine excrement, if you get my meaning.

I hope you don't think I was twisting your... ..talking you into it.

No, no. If anything, it was like you were trying to talk us out of it, wasn't it, love?



Perhaps it was reverse psychology.

No, no, I'm still struggling with it the right way round.

We're doing the right thing, though?


Well, come on, this cheque book is burning a hole in my pocket. That was 91,000, wasn't it?


Shall we make it 90?

Well, I don't think we should be quibbling over $1,000, so let's just keep it at 91, shall we?

Yeah. (LAUGHS) Yeah, that's fine. That's fine. OK. Who should I make it out to, mate?

Cash might be best. 'I can't get to the phone, so leave a message.'

'Don, it's Ray. Can you give me a ring? Um...Noel and Coralie have just given me a cheque for
$91,000 for a Don's Dirty Dogwash franchise, and I'm not sure what I should do next. Practically or
morally. Thanks.'

DIAL TONE # The Sydney Harbour Bridge It lights up on New Year's Eve # Revealing to the world just
what Aussies can achieve... # (FARTS) Hey, hey.

# ..sure is something to be proud of # Cos electricity you don't want to do without it... #


# It's no wonder my gramps loves it # Cos there's nowhere, nowhere, nowhere # Quite as nice... #

That was delicious.


Must give you some money for that.

No, no. My treat. I got it on a two-for-one voucher.

Oh, wow. Thanks for using it on me.

My pleasure. Anyway... This is what I've got so far. "The debut album from the Camberwell Woodwind
and Brass Band, Ole, It's The Camberwell Woodwind And Brass Band, marks them as one of the premiere
bands of their genre in Melbourne's eastern suburbs. The punchy horn section, and crisp woodwinds,
shine through on every track, under the masterful baton of retired public servant, Anthony George,
AM. A particular note is systems analyst Ian Goulet's French...horn...playing... ..on The
Entertainer. An absolute delight. While retail queen Janet Wilson's... work on the..." Oh, boy. Oh,

# Nowhere, nowhere, nowhere # Quite as nice! # This Program Is Captioned Live.

Tonight - only the strong survive.

The message is very clear - time's up, Mr Garrett.

I've rolled up my sleeves, as you can see, haven't got my coat on and I'm heading back to my desk
to do that work.

Good evening, welcome to Lateline. I'm Ticky Fullerton. Prayer scpt Barnaby Joyce are the two
players who've been in the cross hairs during the first parliamentary sitting of the year but will
any of the shots fired by each side prove fate snl

The whales are dying, the koalas are dying, the Tasmanian devils are dying, the trees are dying,
the rivers are dying and now people are dying and under a program of his we're turning ordinary
suburban homes into sort of suburban electric chairs and you think, well, blimey, if he's doing a
good job what's he got to do to do a bad one?

There's a tenancy to go too far every time. It's ridiculous to say there is a case of industrial
manslaughter for the Minister to answer here like Barnaby Joyce going too far when it comes to
Chinese vem.

To discuss the week in politics we're joined by political strategists Grahame Morris and Bruce
Hawker. That's come up but first, bearing gifts for Greeks, European leaders agree to support
Greece through its debt crisis. Art for art's sake. Gilbert and George return to Australia almost
40 years after their first visit. And looking back at 20 years of

Garrett stands firm under pressure

TICKY FULLERTON, PRESENTER: Peter Garrett is defiantly standing firm and refusing to resign over
his troubled insulation program. The Opposition continued its attack today, claiming the number of
prior warnings to the minister about the dangers of the scheme has reached 17. But in the face of
pressure from the Opposition and unions, Mr Garrett still has the backing of his boss. From
Canberra, Hayden Cooper reports.

HAYDEN COOPER, REPORTER: When a minister's in trouble his every move is tracked, but Peter Garrett
says he's not looking for an exit.

PETER GARRETT, ENVIRONMENT MINISTER: I've rolled up my sleeves as you can see, haven't got my coat
on and I'm heading back to the desk to do that work.

HAYDEN COOPER: His prosecutor headed to Brisbane. Most of the homes with foil insulation are in
Queensland and the Opposition Leader wants to capitalise.

TONY ABBOTT, OPPOSITION LEADER: Minister Garrett must take responsibility for this. He must pay for
these four deaths with his job.

HAYDEN COOPER: Deaths that Tony Abbott believes the minister could have prevented.

TONY ABBOTT: He should have heeded these warnings and if he had heeded the warning that he was
given people would be alive.

JULIA GILLARD, DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER: Peter Garrett can't be in every roof in this country as
insulation is being installed. What he does as a minister is he sets the standards.

HAYDEN COOPER: And Mr Garrett himself believes the training standards he put in place are

PETER GARRETT: I continue to absolutely emphasise how important safety is in the discharge of this
program from all concerned, particularly the installers.

HAYDEN COOPER: But the union movement has again voiced its disapproval.

DAVE NOONA, CFMEU: Workers ought to be trained in safe work at heights, in work in confined spaces
and in electrical safety as well as basic industry inductions, and the sort of Mickey Mouse short
courses that people were being put through didn't deal with these adequately and we very clearly
communicated that to the Government.

TONY ABBOTT: This particular Labor minister has lost the confidence of the union movement, and it's
hard to see how a Labor Government minister can survive without the confidence of the union

HAYDEN COOPER: He does have support where it really counts.

KEVIN RUDD, PRIME MINISTER: I have absolute confidence in the minister. It has been a very hard
program to implement. There've been tragedies for people's families; I understand that. But there
are also tragedies with industrial accidents across the country in other areas.

HAYDEN COOPER: Electricians have begun checks on thousands of homes to prevent any more tragedies.

Yesterday, more than 2,000 people called the Government's phone hotline seeking safety checks and
estimates from the electricians conducting the work suggest the danger may extend to more homes
than the Government has let on.

GREG HUNT, OPPOSITION SPOKESMAN: Time's up, Mr Garrett. Four new revelations, 17 warnings, all
ignored, real tragedies. It's time for this minister to go.

HAYDEN COOPER: That's unlikely.

PETER GARRETT: Well, I think I've said everything that I need to say at this point in time. There's
plenty of my comments on the record. I've made a very detailed statement to the House and as well
as that I took a few questions in Question Time and a censure motion and I continue to go back and
do the work. Thanks.

HAYDEN COOPER: The weekend can't come soon enough.

Hayden Cooper, Lateline.

EU to bail out Greece

TICKY FULLERTON, PRESENTER: European leaders have struck a deal to help Greece get itself out of
financial trouble. The country's economy is in such desperate shape that Greece may default on its
loans and the bad news just keeps coming with fourth quarter figures showing that its economy
shrank by almost one per cent. Europe correspondent Philip Williams reports.

PHILIP WILLIAMS, REPORTER: As the Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou arrived at the EU summit,
all knew he was bearing not gifts but debts and a whole lot of trouble for everyone. There had been
talk of a rescue package, a Euro zone bail-out, but it was soon clear the cash was neither offered
nor requested.

HERMAN VAN ROMPUY, EU PRESIDENT: Euro area member states will take determined and coordinated
action if needed to safeguard financial stability in the Euro area as a whole.

PHILIP WILLIAMS: So beyond the vague rhetoric of support what is the deal? The answer is: we simply
don't know. But if the Greeks can't finance their immediate needs of more than 50 billion Euro,
then it's likely the IMF would be involved. The British Prime Minister Gordon Brown was making it
very clear this was not his problem, but one for the Euro zone countries.

GORDON BROWN, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: There is of course international support available. That was
what we negotiated in London at the G20 in April and it was pursued through to Pittsburgh, but the
discussions at the moment are within the Euro area.

PHILIP WILLIAMS: The stronger Euro zone countries like Germany and France are very worried the
Greek problems could soon spread to other weak countries like Portugal, Spain and Ireland, but they
have their own problems to deal with. A short time ago official figures showed Germany didn't grow
at all in the final quarter last year, a surprisingly bad result. Italy's economy shrank 0.2 of a
per cent in the same period. The French were better with growth of 0.6 of a per cent, but hardly a
strong platform to bail out others.

Already the Euro has been shrinking against the US dollar, and though less pronounced, it's dropped
against the pound too.

Taxi drivers in Athens are the latest to take their protest about the Government's austerity
program to the streets. The day before, it was the public servants saying no to the cuts in wages
and conditions, pensions and programs.

And it may be here in the streets that it all unravels. With many more protests to come, the Greek
Government will need all the strength it can muster to resist angry citizens unprepared to make the
cuts demanded by other countries. The rest of Europe is praying it can.

Philip Williams, Lateline.

The latest on the economy with Stephen Long

TICKY FULLERTON, PRESENTER: Our Economics Correspondent Stephen Long joins us in the studio.

Well, Stephen, what are the challenges posed by this deal to support Greece?

STEPHEN LONG, ECONOMICS CORRESPONDENT: Well one of the challenges is, Ticky, that it's clear that
Greece isn't the only sick man of Europe. We've just had the latest figures come out for economic
growth across the 16-nation Euro zone and it's virtually stagnant. It grew by just 0.1 per cent,
dragged down strangely enough by Germany, the strongest economy and largest economy of Europe,
which was flat in the fourth quarter of last year. Now it led Europe out of recession after it fell
into a very deep recession; a lot of hope pinning on Germany, growth was flat. Italy, third largest
economy, went backwards in the fourth quarter, and we heard in Phillip's piece that Greece is
deeper in recession. Spain is remaining in recession. So clearly the problems are not simply ones
of Greece, and that raises the question of why - that perhaps gives an insight into why you saw a
reluctance to put any firm commitments, financial commitments around this rhetorical pledge to
assist Greece.

TICKY FULLERTON: I was gonna say: if a country as big as Germany is in trouble and some of the
other Euro zone economies are in trouble, how willing are they gonna be to stump up the money?

STEPHEN LONG: Well, they're in a bind really because in Germany in was consumption, domestic
consumption and investment that went backwards and offset their export earnings. Now, if the
domestic economy isn't in a good state and the German people were promised that they would never
have to bail out any other European economies if they were part of the Euro zone, then there's
gonna be a lot of political kickback if they actually have to front up real dollars to help this.

But beyond this, you've got the situation about the stability of the entire Euro zone and also
questions about the sustainability of global economic growth, because the assumption was that we
were coming out of recession globally. Now this lends weight to the idea that growth is going to be
stagnant at best or sluggish at best in Europe, a big part of the world economy. And we know also
that the United States is still in a pretty bad way.

TICKY FULLERTON: What about the rest of the world? I mean, if Germany has been a bit of a shock,
how are other major countries going?

STEPHEN LONG: Well, we know that China's going gangbusters; so strongly in fact that for the second
time in a month they've increased the reserve requirements for their banks to cool their economy.
They want to slow growth, but in slowing growth and slowing domestic lending, it's raising fears
about the impact on the rest of the world - Europe of course, the United States, but especially it
has implications for Australia. Clearly we're in a much better way, but the optimism that had been
expressed that we were all out of the woods, I'd say that that's perhaps slightly premature at this

TICKY FULLERTON: Stephen Long, thanks for joining us.

STEPHEN LONG: You're welcome.

premature at this stage.

Stephen Long, thanks for joining us.

You're welcome.

Police probe murder of Indian brothers

TICKY FULLERTON, PRESENTER: Police in Perth are questioning a man over the deaths of two Indian
students who are believed to be brothers.

A badly injured man went to an ambulance station in the Perth suburb of Morley early this morning
calling for help. He later died in hospital. The body of another man was found on the road nearby.
The man taken into custody for questioning is also an Indian student.

DAVID BRYSON, WA POLICE: The information that we've got, there has been a dispute about finances.
Essentially that's been it. There's been some dispute about money, and from that things have
obviously escalated.

TICKY FULLERTON: Police have not yet revealed how the two men died.


Police have not yet revealed how the two men died.

Strategists discuss volatile week in Parliament

TICKY FULLERTON, PRESENTER: Most federal politicians would be pretty relieved to be out of Canberra
today after a bruising week in Parliament which saw both Government and Opposition lose a bit of
skin. To discuss the first two volatile sitting weeks of the year and where they've left the major
parties I'm joined in Canberra by Grahame Morris, former chief of staff to John Howard and now of
Grahame Morris Consulting, and in Sydney by long-time Labor strategist, Hawker Britain's Bruce

Good evening to you both.



TICKY FULLERTON: Well, Grahame Morris, I don't know why anyone bothered with Avatar in the last
couple of weeks; you just had to look at Parliament. Who do you think is ahead now that we've got
through the first fortnight?

GRAHAME MORRIS: Well, I actually think the Liberals are back in the game. They have been sort of
since just before Christmas when Tony Abbott became leader. You wouldn't actually say that he's
sort of on a white horse, but he's certainly on a light grey one. The difference is actually Tony
Abbott. And I think there's also a slightly different culture where they've sort of decided, well,
we're in Opposition; we better get fair dinkum about being in Opposition rather than being
half-hearted about sort of being a proxy government. But it's all about Abbot.

TICKY FULLERTON: Do you think there's a bit of luck there as well with Copenhagen collapsing in the
way that it did?

GRAHAME MORRIS: Well, you might call it luck, but others would call it sheer guts. And when you
think about it, Ticky, we've been fed front-page diet for three years that Copenhagen is really
important, that climate change is really important, and I went to the US to have a look at how they
dealt with Copenhagen and in all the time there, there was one front-page story in LA and San
Francisco and New York and that was: the President's coming home because he's gonna get snowed in.
We seem to have gone through this Copenhagen thing where the Government's said, "Really, really
important," and the rest of the world said, "No, it's not," and then Australians said, "Well, maybe
Abbott's right."

TICKY FULLERTON: Bruce Hawker, there certainly is some traction that Tony Abbott's managed to to
get, hasn't he? He's put the Government on the back foot on their own climate change policy.

BRUCE HAWKER: Well he's given us product differentiation; the question really is whether people at
the end of the day are gonna really think that that's a product that they want to buy. And of
course it's very early days right now for Tony Abbott. They came off a real low, there's no doubt
about that. The party was terribly divided and arguably it still is with Turnbull crossing the
floor to support CPRS this week. So, it's not as if they don't have their problems still. The big
question, I think, for Tony Abbott is: OK, you can get your base going there and you've returned to
your base and you really probably had to do that, but to what extent are you going to be able to
get to the middle ground? And that's gonna be the big challenge for him going forward because,
really, everything that he's said and done so far have taken him more away from the middle ground
rather than towards it: anti-climate change, climate change is absolute crap, doing interviews with
the Women's Weekly where he made very conservative statements about pre-marital sex. In his book
he's been talking about fault-based divorce being reintroduced. He's a man of very conservative
values. And I think over a period of time the challenge for the Labor Government and Labor Party is
to bring that out more and to say, "Well is he really worth the risk?"

TICKY FULLERTON: That's also presumably his strength, his ability to cut through. I've been in a
couple of electorates in the last 10 days or so and I've been quite amazed - admittedly it was very
anecdotal - but at how this message of the great big tax and also the issue of broken promises
seems to be getting through to the grass roots.

BRUCE HAWKER: Well this is the stuff of Opposition. You really can go out there and you can make
the allegations, make the accusations, but then if you're in government, you actually have to do
the explaining, and that's the, in a sense the unequal nature of the political thrust and parry
when you get to that stage of the political debate. And that's gonna be hard for the Government to
sit down and explain calmly to people why it's not a big tax, why in fact the $3 billion that's
gonna be allocated by Tony Abbott actually reflects a tax on the electorate. So that's going to be
the sort of argument that we're gonna see coming out in the coming days and weeks. No doubt it's
easier to make those bald, bland statements - one big tax, or whatever the statement is - and make
the Government respond. It will be challenging, but I think the Government's got time and they'll
spend time sitting down and explaining that and also starting to forensically go about breaking
down Tony Abbott's climate change credentials.

TICKY FULLERTON: It's been a difficult week for the Government this past week and for Kevin Rudd in
particular. I think we saw the Q and A program on ABC, the PM talking to an audience of young
Australians and the media certainly viewing it as the PM coming over quite brittle. But also we've
had yesterday's talkback hosts quite damning on Kevin Rudd - a lack of warmth, plastic personality,
no sense of humour, the fakery of it all, says Alan Jones. How damaging could this be to the Prime
Minister, Grahame Morris?

GRAHAME MORRIS: Well, look, I think there's a bit of a feeling at the moment that the PM is not
quite what they thought they were going to get. Now, is he governing really badly? No, he's not.
Has he had some luck? Yes, he has. But there are times there when the PM looks as if he's not being
himself. You know, he's not the fellow he was before when he was doing those morning Sunrise
programs on television or what not. He now just looks a bit - it's not manufactured, but it's
almost plastic and he doesn't look himself. And the bits I saw of Q and A the other night, you
know, the kids were quite cynical, and in the end I don't think it worked as television. They
weren't communicating with each other, he was going through the motions of his lines, and in the
end you could see some of the kids say, "Oh, blimey, he's just another politician. He's not what we
thought he was." And that surprised me.

TICKY FULLERTON: We shouldn't of course get carried away, because the polls are dramatically in the
Government's favour at the moment and they do have a very good economic story to tell, don't they,
Bruce Hawker? Do you think the electorate will reward Kevin Rudd for low unemployment probably
having peaked? Do you think people sit there and think, "Oh, thank heavens I'm not in America where
there's 10 per cent unemployment?" Do you think he will be rewarded for how he handled the GFC?

BRUCE HAWKER: Oh, I think so, He's got a very good story to tell there, and maybe one of the
reasons why he looked a bit preoccupied the other night was the fact that he has had over the last
12 months to deal with the biggest financial and economic crisis that the world's had to deal with
since the Great Depression. So he's a man who has a lot of things on his mind and a lot of things
on his plate to deal with and I think that's something which the public will accept and recognise
as being part and parcel of a very big year for him, a year where Australia came out on top. 5.3
per cent unemployment, we've got debt about a 10th of comparable countries across the world. These
are fantastic figures for him to have.

TICKY FULLERTON: I ask you this because business certainly appears to be backing away from Kevin
Rudd. The BCA today: thanks for handling the global financial crisis, but Labor's policy for the
recovery is not up to scratch. They also appear to be backing away from the Government on the ETS
in terms of business certainty. Do you think the electorate might feel the same way, you know,
"Thanks, but we're onto something different now"?

BRUCE HAWKER: Well I think one of the big challenges for the Government is to remind them
constantly about what they actually did do there to avoid the sort of problems that the rest of the
world got themselves into - guaranteeing the bank deposits, making sure that money was flowing
through their accounts. The stimulus package was a classic example of that: actually getting out
there and pouring money into the economy. Now they can point to the fact that Tony Abbott opposed
the stimulus package, Barnaby Joyce opposed both the cash handouts and the big education programs
that are now in place. I mean, 48,000 school halls, canteens, you name it, being built across the
country. These are tangible demonstrations of what the Government's been doing to keep the economy
going. So, sure the BCA may have some concerns, and in a sense you would expect them to have
concerns, they are a conservative business organisation, and sure you'd expect Alan Jones to be
critical of Kevin Rudd because he's appealing to his audience which is an anti-Labor audience
essentially when he says those things. So, you have to though ask yourself: are the people in the
middle going to be attracted to what Labor's doing right now? Are they going to be rewarding a
Government which has done these things quite effectively over the last 12 month? I think the answer
is probably yes. And that's why if there was an election held tomorrow on the Nielsen polls, Labor
would get actually get a swing to it and pick up about nine seats. So we have to take that into

TICKY FULLERTON: Graham, how do you think that the polls will go on Monday? Do you think the
electorate is grateful for all this?

GRAHAME MORRIS: Look, I think the whole poll thing is getting closer. If an election were held now
Australians - when the election is called they do polarise. And all of a sudden I think we've gone
from thinking, well, you know, maybe the Government might win an extra 10, 12 seats and the
Liberals might be two or three elections away and now to maybe, well, you know, maybe there might
be a few of these Labor members who are just oncers, and nobody ever wants to be a oncer.

TICKY FULLERTON: Well let me ask you about - speaking of oncers. Peter Garrett this week must be
very grateful for a week out from Parliament. Can he hang on, do you think?

GRAHAME MORRIS: He can and I notice the PM is saying he's doing a good job, but when you think
about it, under his watch the whales are dying, the koalas are dying, the Tasmanian devils are
dying, the trees are dying, the rivers are dying and now people are dying. And under a program of
his we're turning ordinary suburban homes into sort of suburban electric chairs, and you think,
well, blimey, if he's doing a good job, what's he gotta do to do a bad one?

TICKY FULLERTON: Yes, Bruce Hawker, Tony Abbott was pummelling this issue of four deaths associated
with the installation program. How damaging do you think that's going to be for the minister?

BRUCE HAWKER: Well this was I think an example of the stuff of politics, the stuff of Opposition:
you really should be out there if you're in Opposition running those cases because that's the sort
of thing that the public expects you to be doing and you should hold the Government accountable.
The thing though that we saw yesterday was, once again, Tony Abbott going too far. He comes out and
he says that the minister if he was charged in NSW he'd be guilty of industrial manslaughter. Now,
that's just flabbergasting, to think that someone would actually come out and say that. There are
gonna be inquiries, there are gonna be coronial inquests, there are gonna be WorkCover
investigations into these deaths and their gonna find out what happened, who was responsible for
'em. But I bet at the end of the day you're not gonna find that a minister's gonna be responsible
for it, and I think that's where the Opposition's gotta be careful. There's this tendency just to
go too far every time. It's ridiculous to say there was a case of industrial manslaughter for the
minister to answer here, just like Barnaby Joyce going too far when it comes to Chinese investment
or too far when it comes to sovereign debt. That's the problem.

TICKY FULLERTON: Well, we've talked about Labor; let me ask you about Barnaby Joyce. Do you think
there is a level of forgiveness in the electorate about Barnaby Joyce? And the way he's able to cut
through - at one level, yes, he might be the bearded lady of Australian politics and talking about
putting Australia in junk land, but equally, he seems to have this relationship with the grass

BRUCE HAWKER: I think he's got a relationship with regional Australia and I think that's been
something he's fostered over a period of time, and frankly the National Party had to do something
because they were really losing that grass roots connection. He did something there to reconnect.
His problem now is that he's the Finance spokesman for the Opposition and he has to really be there
for the entire country. And people in the business media and others are looking at him and saying,
"Did he really say that? Did he really say that sovereign debt in this country was getting out of
control when it's a 10th of what it is in other comparable economies across the world?" That's the
problem that he's got. He's over-egging the pudding all the time and people are going to say,
"Look, this fellow just isn't worth the risk."

TICKY FULLERTON: Do you agree, Grahame Morris? Do you think that Tony Abbott is going to have to do
something about moving him?

GRAHAME MORRIS: No. No. I'll answer that in a second, but just back on Peter Garrett: I don't think
Peter Garrett will get sacked. I probably don't think he should get sacked. But I think - none of
my business, but I think the PM at some stage might consider having an election year reshuffle, and
if were him, I think Peter Garrett and Penny Wong out of those environment area, probably oughta go
into somewhere else. But, Barnaby Joyce, I think he's a beauty. I get sick of these sorta plastic
politicians who are sorta pot plants with lips who sit in the corner and are just useless, can't
raise any money, couldn't win a vote in their own right. Barnaby's got some go in him, he's got
some guts in him.

And just while I think about something else: this is actually your 20th anniversary tonight. 20
years ago, Peter Garrett would have been doing the Peter Garrett sort of stomp on stage and here we
are 20 years later and the Liberals, we had Andrew Peacock who was gonna go to an election and four
leaders later they won, and since the last election there's been four leaders. Maybe Abbot is gonna
go close.

TICKY FULLERTON: Well what better night to trawl through the collateral damage. Now speaking of
collateral damage, Stephen Conroy must be the luckiest minister in Canberra this week. Has the
appointment of Labor insider Mike Kaiser to a $450,000 a year job that was not advertised means
that he's going to get off quite lightly, do you think?

GRAHAME MORRIS: I think so. Look, Kaiser'd probably do quite a good job. He's probably quite an
appropriate fellow for that sort of job. But the process was atrocious. You know, I can just see in
the sort of Howard era if the Howard Government had tried that, it would have had its throat cut.
But I think Mike Kaiser can sort of thank Peter Garrett and various other people for the dramas
this week. I think he got off quite lightly. But, look, I hope he does a good job. It's a very,
very important job. And if he cocks up, I think he and his minister will get their throat cut.

TICKY FULLERTON: Lastly, Grahame Morris, can I ask you: wither Malcolm Turnbull?

GRAHAME MORRIS: Well, I hope Malcolm - and I think most people would hope that Malcolm has got his
floor-crossing off his chest. Once for a former captain's probably enough. I hope he's a big
contributor. I hope he's a big contributor for a long time. But you'd have to ask him, Ticky. I
don't know.

TICKY FULLERTON: Bruce Hawker, what do you think Malcolm Turnbull might do? Could he be another
Peter Costello?

BRUCE HAWKER: He may be. He also might be another Andrew Peacock, John Howard who just stays around
and waits to see what happens to Tony Abbott. I think we've got a long way to go with Tony Abbott
yet and I think we could see him crash and burn, we could see him put up a reasonable job as
Opposition Leader. I think it's a long way to go. But I'll say this: Malcolm Turnbull is somebody
who right now is basically a footnote in history. He wants to have a whole chapter devoted to him.
So I think we've yet to see the end of the Malcolm Turnbull story. I think he's gonna be around for
a while yet.

TICKY FULLERTON: Gentlemen, it's building up to be quite a year. Thankyou very much Grahame Morris
and Bruce Hawker.


GRAHAME MORRIS: Have a drink for me.



. Have a drink for me.

Clinton recovering from heart surgery

TICKY FULLERTON, PRESENTER: Former US President Bill Clinton has undergone treatment for heart
problems. Doctors inserted two stents to clear blockages in Mr Clinton's coronary arteries.

ALAN SCHWARTZ, CARDIOLOGIST: The procedure went very smoothly. President Clinton has since been up
and walking around and visiting with his family. He's in good spirits.

TICKY FULLERTON: Bill Clinton had quadruple bypass surgery in 2004, but today's procedure was far
less serious and doctors say he could be back at work on Monday.

Gilbert and George back down under

TICKY FULLERTON, PRESENTER: Two of the most famous living British artists are back in Australia
after almost 40 years since their last perplexing appearance. Gilbert and George are a team in work
and in life and view every living moment as art. Karen Barlow reports.

KAREN BARLOW, REPORTER: Gilbert and George simply don't exist as individuals - it's all or nothing.

GEORGE: I think we're quite amused people in general. Wouldn't you say Gilbert?

GILBERT: Yes, I think George is the most sharpest comedian of all time.

KAREN BARLOW: And there's no noticeable downtime for these walking artworks. If there is, we'll
never see it.

Do they ever turn off? I mean, is there any moment where they're not art?

JOHN KALDOR, PATRON AND FRIEND: No. No. Ever since I've known them, they are art.

JOHN MCDONALD, SMH ART CRITIC: They're people who have been playing a role for so long that it's
really no longer a role. The mask has become welded to their faces.

KAREN BARLOW: Gilbert and George pose as respectable middle-class gentlemen in prim suits. They
like to be called conservative anarchists, especially now they're in their 60s.

GILBERT: We are creating - we are self-sufficient. We don't care about other people. We made a
world for ourselves, and that's it.

GEORGE: We don't like to have opinions or thoughts about matters that we cannot affect. We don't
want to be exhausted by thinking about things we can have no effect on. That's why we believe that
culture is in advance of politics in a free-voting society.

KAREN BARLOW: They rose to prominence in the 1960s and early '70s and in 1973 came to Australia to
perform their signature piece, The Singing Sculpture. For hours they stood on a table painted in
gold miming the Depression-era song 'Underneath the Arches'.

JOURNALIST: Do you find you get bored at all with the song?

GEORGE: Not at all. We like it very much. More and more. Love it, really. We'd recommend it to

JOHN MCDONALD: It's a song sung by happy tramps who are saying how wonderful it is to be free from
care and to be sleeping on the streets. Now, perhaps it's a song that has relevance today too with
the financial crisis.

KAREN BARLOW: Over the decades, Gilbert and George have pushed the boundaries of taste, taking on
racism, homosexuality and bodily excretions.

GEORGE: We believe that we are always fascinated by things that are discriminated against, things
that are frowned upon. And we think those things should be rescued. It must be horrible to be
discriminated against.

KAREN BARLOW: At the moment they're tackling religion, claiming it causes more harm than good.

GILBERT: All the Christian, the Catholics, the Protestant, they cannot accept gays. It's just
extraordinary. They cannot accept women bishops. It's just extraordinary, because everybody else
accepts it. But they, because they read the Bible, which is a medieval book, what you call fairy
book, we call it. They cannot stand up. And they should be taken to court because they do a lot of
damage to a lot of people.

KAREN BARLOW: The unpleasant and confronting have been quite lucrative for Gilbert and George.
Their works are on the must-have lists of all the world's major galleries, and like these ones here
at the Art Gallery of NSW, can sell for more than a million dollars.

What's not for sale is Gilbert and George themselves, even though they've set their lives up as
walking artworks.

Art critic John McDonald says they may think they're beyond criticism.

JOHN MCDONALD: Well, Gilbert and George are doing what a lot of artists have said they were doing
for many years: they're saying, "My life is art. Everything I do is art." This is a very convenient
thing inasmuch as it means that you don't really make any bad art because you don't have a good or
bad life, it's just the thing that you do.

KAREN BARLOW: Gilbert and George are back in Australia at the invitation of the man who brought
them out almost 40 years ago.

JOHN KALDOR: They're coming here as friends and coming here as an inspiration. They were an
inspiration to me in '73 when they came and they're very much an inspiration for me for the future.

KAREN BARLOW: Gilbert and George, who married last year, are staying in Sydney this weekend before
travelling to Melbourne.

Karen Barlow, Lateline.

Lateline celebrates 20th birthday

in Sydney this weekend before travelling to Melbourne. Well, I'm honoured tonight marks the 20th
anniversary of the first edition of Lateline. The format may have changed slightly over the the
years but what hasn't changed is the commitment to trying to get to the heart of the story. Along
the way we've broken stories and interviewed many of the heavyweights of international and local
politics as you'll see in this highlights package of the last 20 years.

Live from Sydney, the ABC's Lateline. Here's Kerry O'Brien.

Welcome to Lateline. A program that promises something new in Australian television. The battle for
pair stroika is being fought out behind these Kremlin walls in the President's office and supreme
Soviet. How long do you think it will take before Mr Gorbachev does go?

One of my colleagues said, "What you want a consensus." I said, "I don't understand consensus."

I certainly want the Liberal Party to be a radical reforming Government.

I sincerely hope we're going to concentrate on the positive.

I have learned the hard way that peace is not poetry s-T is not singing a song

The Australian Government should have a far more clear cut policy as to what and when they should
do whatever it is that needs to be done with regard to Burma.

Victory has already been achieved.

The President is committed to Iraq because Iraq is critical to our security.

Chinese military...

Why is it that the United States, this little backward agrarian country with 3 million people,
should have produced in the 18th century three of the great intellectual geniuses of the 18th

How can you possibly project anything for four years ahead ?

You're becoming a forecasting nutter.

Even your party polling...

I don't think that has got anything to do with my talking about what Mr Howard said tonight.

It's central to the message.

I think you are drifting off here.

I'd swim upstream in a riv of shit with me mouth open to see Peter right match compassion and
sincerety together.

Thank you, Mr Howard. That was the Prime Minister in his first interview with us earlier this
evening and following that interview and after the chief of the navy put out a statement attempting
to clarify his earlier remarks Mr Howard requested a second interview with Lateline on the issue.
Prime Minister, welcome back.

Thank you

. Who was it that convinced admiral Shackleton to make the new statement?

I think that's a bit offensive to him.

In the modern Labor Party you can go to the strategy meeting with Simon Crean in the morning or
with Kim Beazley in the afternoon but Tony, you can't go to both. You can't go to both meetings on
the one day and I'm sure this is the point Simon made of these three roosters this morning.

Have you met archbishop Pell during the election campaign?

Not that I can recall.

We believe you had at least one meeting with him quite recently. You don't recall that? At the pres
butry in Sydney.

Actually now that you mention it I did meet with cardinal Pell. So what?

This photo of Vivian was sent to Lateline by her family in the Philippines.

What about releasing a photograph of Vivian Young so peopling in the Philippines might know what
she looks like?

I think we'll leave it to professionals to do the job.

It's a miracle. 9:00 I switched on the news and it was her face and they mentioned her name.

The noose will be tie oed around his neck and tightened above his left ear. He will be hooded and
precisely 6:00 the lever will be pulled, the trap door will be opened and sadly Nguyen will fall to
his death.

It's 1 June last year in an isolation block in Kurtin detention centre. Behind this reinforced door
two men have reached breaking point. Bloodied and dazed, this detainee pleads for someone to
explain why he's being locked up. There's no answer.

No-one noticed the child was missing. He penetrated her anus and vagina and some hours later
returned to his parents house with the now naked child.

All child sexual assault in central Australia is happening at much higher rates than are currently
being reported to police, as is violence on Aboriginal women and children.

The level of intervention here is quite dramatic and quite sweeping and we shouldn't mince words,
we are in effect supplanting the Northern Territory Government

This is how David Hicks lives, in a cell 3m by 3m with just a few personal effects.

You have your basic issues.

Three, two, one and lift off of space shuttle Discovery beginning America's new journey to the
moon, Mars and beyond.

What are the astronauts feeling from the G forces at the moment?

It's like a couple of people sitting on your chest.

As we celebrate the 25th birth of the Opera House I suppose it's a time to be lyrical about this
wufrl building. What do you think explains its special appeal?

I think there are many things but I can see two things. One is that that building in some way
became the portrait of Sydney.

This is my last night at the anchor desk after many long and very happy years here at the ABC. I am
retiring from broadcasting and I guess I want to take some time to consider other challenges.

Welcome to our first edition of Lateline Business.

My advice to you is to go and buy a farm and a shotgun because things will get very bad in the

China is the world's largest contributor of greenhouse gases

It is the height of bad manners to interrupt. Please restrain yourself and the figures I have used
are deduced from the chemistry of rocks which erupt on the sea floor.

Actually, it's the height of bad manners to lie on national television about something that you
know to be plain wrong.

I think we have an excellent chance of getting a framework agreement that's binding and that puts
us on the right road

If the science was settled Copernicus would be dead.

Tony Abbott says-

Sorry, he is dead. He is dead. He would have been killed.

Can you hear me, Christopher Hitch snns


Thank you for joining us first to you fab five Freddy.

Can you please, please tell me what's happening, when I'm going to start and how long?

I don't think that's the kind of Australia that most people left or right want to live in. That's
my impression.

If-M I live or is this recorded?

This is live. If you'd like to continue we can right now. My question for you was can you see any
real comparisons between what happened with the Denmark cartoons and what happened with Salman

It is unbelievable that this man in this day and age, after all this time, should have such a
kindergarten notion of balance.

There's no branch of the 6-10 office inside the embassy or the consulate to your knowledge?

Yep, no


There is no?

No. Yes.

Now to the weather. That's all from us. If you'd like to look back at tonight's discussion with
Grahame Morris and Bruce Hawker or review any of Lateline's stories or transcripts including
material from the last 20 years of Lateline you can visit our website. You can also follow us on
bitter and Facebook. Leigh Sales and Tony Jones will be back next week. Goodnight.

Closed Captions by CSI This program is not subtitled

TARDIS WHIRS Whoa! Oh! I have just time-travelled back from the end of the show. (LAUGHS) It was so
good. I was hilarious. Do you remember the bit when I said and then your man said the other thing?
Oh, now I've got to do it all again. Let's start the show! THEME MUSIC CHEERING AND APPLAUSE Oh!
Thank you. Thank you very much. Hello, everyone. What a fantastic show we have for you this
evening. Is there a doctor in the house? Yes, there is.