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(generated from captions) it came away...like a glove. of the passengers is injured, I must stress that...uh...none and the ship is under full control. who was in charge, "We should like to know caused the catastrophe "and whose want of caution fellow men to a horrible death." "which consigned several of our

I...I had to break the news to him. Um... a happier conclusion to... I think he was holding on for...

And... I'm afraid he... deteriorated rapidly. He... His condition the demise of Mr Brunel, "We regret to announce Street at 10.30pm on Thursday. "who died at his residence in Duke

the comparatively early age of 53." "He expired at Mr Russell? I have nothing to say. Any comments to be made? the explosion. Nothing to say. found that a safety valve caused At the coroner's inquest, it was yet charges were not pressed. blame for lack of supervision, Many believed that Russell was to

never built another ship. But Russell never took them east. never took on her 4,000 passengers, As for the Great Eastern, she

was a commercial disaster. The Great Eastern There was never the demand. But she was an engineering triumph. made her extremely manoeuvrable, Her combination of screw and paddle transatlantic telegraph cable. and ideal to lay the first Her strength was legendary. 85 feet, passengers didn't notice. When she gashed her outer skin by A smaller rip sank the Titanic. Too far ahead of her time,

to build such a gigantic ship. before anyone would attempt it was 50 years and a new century 30 years after her maiden voyage, On the first day of 1889, just started to tear her apart. the wreckers Come here! What? they made a gruesome discovery. famous double hull, it's rumoured When they smashed through her COUGHING AND CHOKING

Two bodies, one only a child. when she was being built. in the ship's hull Riveters trapped alive had jinxed the Great Eastern. It was said their deaths And as for Brunel... greatest engineer of all time. well, history has judged him the BBC Broadcast 2003 Subtitles by Karin Anderson

E-mail us at subtitling@bbc.co.uk

This program is not subtitled A mercy dash for Van Nguyen. Tonight -

will fly to Singapore tomorrow Victoria's Attorney-General to save the young man's life. to offer a prisoner swap We would facilitate that. make sure that worked effectively. We would move heaven and earth to I'm sorry to say this - I do not believe - Government will change its position. I do not believe the Singapore This program is captioned live. I'm Tony Jones. Good evening. Welcome to Lateline. the Victorian Attorney-General Shortly our interview with Rob Hulls to Singapore. on the eve of his mission minister has agreed to see him. He'd just learnt that a senior I am vehemently opposed is vehemently opposed and I know that Steve Bracks to the mandatory death penalty as Attorney-General and I think it is incumbent upon me the Premier of Victoria to urge - to take a very strong message from the Singaporean Government to implore not to embark upon this final act and execute this young man. to Adelaide And later we'll cross live

Alexander Downer. to speak to the Foreign Minister but first our other headlines. That's coming up,

on IR reform admits The head of the senate committee unless changes are made. some workers could be worse off sending more troops John Howard says he'll consider to help rebuild Afghanistan. And Ariel Sharon's political gamble in a bid for peace. a move to the middle ground Victoria's Attorney-General As you've just heard, to Singapore is tonight preparing to fly of death row inmate Van Nguyen. to plead for the life a letter from Premier Steve Bracks, Rob Hulls says he will deliver

seeking clemency. But Prime Minister John Howard says pressure will help Nguyen's cause. he doesn't believe international for Mr Nguyen's family It's a desperate time this morning, who visited him in jail allowed the first of the daily visits

in the lead up to his execution scheduled for Friday week. Lisa Milllar reports. From Singapore,

A dreary day for a distressing

visit. Van Nguyen's mother and

brother spent an hour inside Changi

Prison separated from the convicted

drug trafficker by a glass wall si.

Likely to be a daily ritual, a

depressing countdown his execution

10 days away. They flew into

Singapore last night, clinging to

hope Van Nguyen's life can be saved,

but having to prepare for its end.

For his brother there, is the wait

of knowing it was his financial

debts that prompted his brother to

take a deadly gamble, strapping

heroin to his body. There's a sense

of desperation among those trying

stop the execution. The Victorian of desperation among those trying to

Premier is sending his

Attorney-General to Singapore with

final plea for clemency. He wants Attorney-General to Singapore with a

the 25-year-old to be able to serve

a jail sentence in Australia.

Certainly we would facilitate that.

We would move heaven and earth to

make sure that worked effectstively.

If that was to be undertaken as

of an intervention through the If that was to be undertaken as part

international court w I I Noye the

Foreign Minister Alexander Downer

now considering. Van Nguyen's Foreign Minister Alexander Downer is

lawyers have pleaded with the

government to appeal to the

International Court of Justice, but

there's doubt that would succeed.

The International Court of Justice

has no jurisdiction. The only

who can stop the execution of Mr has no jurisdiction. The only people

Nguyen are the people compromising

the government of Singapore. So, I

know feelings are running strongly

and I feel - I met his mother and

was a very moving experience and I

felt desperately sorry for her.

She's a dear woman who is

understandably feeling completely

desolate and distressed. Formal

fedcal court justice Ien field

expects any appeal to the ICJ to

fail. He's joined Singapore's

Opposition Leaders in calling for a

campaign of international

condemnation. I think at the CHOGM

conference coming up it would be

possible to get the prime ministers

or presidents of friendly countries

that don't have the death penalty

like Britain and South Africa and

Canada and New Zealand and others

speak to the President of or Prime Canada and New Zealand and others to

Minister of Singapore. But John

Howard has dismissed the idea. The

Howard has dismissed the idea. The more international constructs

The more international constructs in a sense that are brought to bear on

the issue the less likely, rather

than the more likely, it is for the

Singaporean Government to change

Singaporean Government to change its mind. If all attempts to stop the

execution fail, it will happen here

at Changi Prison at dawn on

at Changi Prison at dawn on December 2nd. A hangman will tighten the

noose around Van Nguyen's neck,

noose around Van Nguyen's neck, open a trapdoor and end his life. A

a trapdoor and end his life. A death certificate is issued within hours

allowing Van Nguyen's family to

allowing Van Nguyen's family to take his body home.

And I spoke to Victoria's Attorney-General Rob Hulls just a short time ago.

Tanks for joining us. Pleasure,

Tony. What do you hope top achieve

by making this stop-off in

Singapore? If you are vehemently

opposed to death penalty you can't

leave any stone unturned. I'll take

a letter from Steve Bracks making

a letter from Steve Bracks making it clear to the Singaporean government

we are opposed to the death penalty.

Yes, this young kid has made a

serious mistake, committed a

serious mistake, committed a serious offence, but what is being proposed

is totally inappropriate to the

offence that he's committed. So,

we'll be making, if you like a

last-ditched plea for clemency to

ensure that this young man is not

executed. Who will he be making

executed. Who will he be making that plea to exactly? It was uncertain

earlier if you were unable to speak

to a senior official? I am please

I'd have a meeting with the senior

Minister of State for law and home

affairs, Professor O Ping QUE. I'll

meet with him with the High

Commissioner and will not only hand

the letter across from the Premier

of victim

of Victoria Steve Bracks but make

ago plea on behalf of all

ago plea on behalf of all Victorians to save this man. It is important

that the Singaporean government

that the Singaporean government take into fact that this young man has

pleaded guilty and assisted the

police and he's even prepared to

give evidence against those who he

was carrying this contraband. In

was carrying this contraband. In any other jours diction that would lead

the a reduction in sentence, but

what is being proposed here is

mandatory death penalty. It is

important that I make this plea on

behalf of the Victorian government.

Do you have any hope at all because

the Prime Minister essentially says

there's no hope now. What new

arguments or can you make any new

arguments that haven't already been

made on numerous occasions to the

Singapore Rhys? Can I say while Mr

Nguyen is alive, of course there

Nguyen is alive, of course there has to be some hope and I will be

imploring - making it quite clear

imploring - making it quite clear to the Singaporean Government that in

Victoria where this young man comes

from, he should be shown some

clemency. He is a young man. He

clemency. He is a young man. He made a mistake at the age of 22 years of

age. We've all made mistakes at 22

years of age. Nothing as serious as

this perhaps

this perhaps but he's shown remorse,

he has pleaded guilty at the

earliest available opportunity, he

has assisted the police and as a

result he should be shown some

clemency. We are opposed to the

death penalty. We don't believe

death penalty. We don't believe that state sanctioned death penalty is

appropriate; that mandatory death

penalty for any offence is

appropriate. We want the make that

very clear to the Singaporean

government. Will you consider

government. Will you consider asking the Singaporean minister to allow

this case to go before if

International Court of Justice?

Look, I'll be making it pretty

Look, I'll be making it pretty clear that there's a very strong feeling

in Australia against executing this

young man; that all avenues should be exhaust

be exhausted prior to them taking

this final step and it would be a

final step. I'll be making it quite

clear that we are happy to talk

clear that we are happy to talk with the Singaporean Government and

involve The Federal Government in

rel to any form of prisoner

rel to any form of prisoner exchange program. I know we don't have

treaties in relation to this matter

with the Singaporean Government,

with the Singaporean Government, but we are happy to involve ourselves

we are happy to involve ourselves in talks in relation to that prospect.

There was some confusion today in

Victoria about precisely that, the

potential prisoner swap deal. It

appeared that it is impossible to

appeared that it is impossible to do this because ehe's already been

sentenced. Well, as I understand it,

it could be done if the Singaporean

Government were to reconsider the

issue of clemency and so I think it

is important that, as I said, we

leave no stone unturned. I am

vehemently opposed, and I know

vehemently opposed, and I know Steve Bracks is, to the mandatory death

penalty and I think sit emcum bant

on me as Attorney-General to take

the strong message from the Premier

of victd ya to urge, implore the

Singaporean Government not to

Singaporean Government not to embark upon this final act and embark on

what I believe is a barbaric act

what I believe is a barbaric act and execute this young man. The Prime

Minister actually said today the more international constructs, Minister actually said today the more international constructs, as

more international constructs, as he called it, that are brought to bear

on the issue, the less likely it is

that the Singaporean Government

that the Singaporean Government will change its mind. Are you at all

concerned this sort of pressure

might make things worse? No. If you

do nothing, nothing is surer than

this man being executed. I think

that it is emcum bant upon any

member of party. It is emcum bant

member of party. It is emcum bant on any member of public that's opposed

to the death penalty that reveefs

the sanctity of life to do what

the sanctity of life to do what they can to lobby the Singaporean

Government in relation to this

Government in relation to this young man's life to let them know that in

the year 2005 to be hanging people

is barbaric. To be taking away a

young man's life, despite the fact

that he's assisted police, despite

the fact he's pleaded guilty,

despite the fact he's shown remorse,

despite the fact he committed this

offence at 22iers of age,

offence at 22 years of age, no

offence at 22 years of age, no prior convictions, what is being proposed

is not in proportion with the

offence. Rob Hulls, we'll have to

leave it there. Thanks for coming

leave it there. Thanks for coming in tonight. Thanks, Tony. The Prime Minister has admitted a significant drop in the polls for the Federal Government is a reaction to its workplace reform legislation. John Howard says there could be some fine tuning of the bill after a Senate committee recommended several changes. And the Nationals senator Barnaby Joyce has once again refused to rule out crossing the floor to oppose parts of the legislation.

Sally Sara reports from Canberra. It was all cheers as Kim Beazley met with union leaders in Melbourne. Labor believes its fight against the Government's workplace changes is paying off. Mr Beazley accuses the Prime Minister of losing touch with voters. I don't think Howard understands because he is totally out of touch about how much damage Australians believe these laws will do to them. The Prime Minister admits the poll results are a reaction to the industrial relations legislation, but he's not rattled. I have been in politics a very long time and every government goes through periods of having bad polls. the Prime Minister conceded he's willing to make some changes to the legislation. I am certainly happy to finetune. The Treasurer believes the bill will get through anyway. I'm confident that the Government's reforms will be passed through the Senate.

This is the man who could get in

This is the man who could get in the way. Nationals Senator Barnaby

way. Nationals Senator Barnaby Joyce wants changes on unfair dismissal.

He won't rule out crossing the

He won't rule out crossing the floor to vote against parts of the

legislation. I think all Senators

have a role to making sure they

properly reveal legislation in

whatever manner they have to fulfil

that purpose, they should keep that

as part of their repertoire. A

Senate Committee has released its

report on the legislation. It

recommends several changes,

including greater protection of

including greater protection of four weeks' annual leave, assurance that

full-time worker also all be paid

for a 38-hour week and safeguards

for outworkers. What we do not want them to do is become more vulnerable as a result of this legislation, which encourages negotiation between employers and employees. It logically follows that if outworkers are made more vulnerable under this legislation, then other employees other workers are also made more vulnerable. Senator's enthusiasm has already

landed her in trouble. She revealed

details of the report before it was

officially released and admitted

outlining recommendations to the

office of Workplace Relations

Minister Kevin Andrews. And I made

them aware that I would be

them aware that I would be including the recommendations in the report.

So that there was - those

recommendations which are the ones

we've made so that there is not an

element of surprise for them.

But tlenty of surprise for the

Opposition. There certainly appears

to be a case that it should be

referred to the privileges

committee. It's another example of

the way the government treats this

with contempt but Australian

with contempt but Australian workers and their families with conthem.

They are threatening to step up the

campaign for workplace changes and

they say the fight has only just

started. Prime minister-in-waiting

Peter Costello isn't giving away

Peter Costello isn't giving away any clues on whether he'll be the one

leading the government's

counterattack in the future. He's

refused to comment on whether he's

talked with the Prime Minister

talked with the Prime Minister about a handover of lead ship next year.

We have a lot of private discussions, don't read anything

into this, but we keep them between

ourselves. The government is

ourselves. The government is getting ready for a long fight to convince workers that the industrial

relations bill will be good for the country. Fresh from a surprise visit to Afghanistan,

Prime Minister John Howard is now in Pakistan. A short time ago he met with the president, Pervez Musharraf where talks focused on the campaign against terrorism and relief for the victims of last month's earthquake. Tomorrow, the two leaders will tour the most devastated regions. From Islamabad, Matt Brown reports.

The Prime Minister flew from the

Middle East across the Gulf of

Middle East across the Gulf of Amman into southern Afghanistan. The

into southern Afghanistan. The visit was kept secret and journalists

was kept secret and journalists were not allowed to attend. A video

sensored to protect the identity of

the troops was released later. Mr

Howard met the special forces

Howard met the special forces troops at their base camp, named after

Sergeant Andrew Russell, the SA s. Sergeant Andrew Russell, the SAS

officer who died in Afghanistan in

the first phase of the war. There's

very, very strong support in our

country for what you are doing.

Mr Howard flew north and arrived at

a cold and bleak airstrip in cab

bul. In talks he discussed the

possibility of sending another 200

Australian soldiers to help rebuild

Afghanistan. If Australia decides

Afghanistan. If Australia decides to send us a reconstruction team we in

Afghanistan will be very happy.

The Prime Minister says nation

building, as well as war fighting,

is an important part of the

is an important part of the struggle against terrorism. They tend to

reinforce one another. I don't

reinforce one another. I don't think it's a question of saying one is

more important than the other. more important than the other.

Mr Howard then flew to neighbouring

Pakistan for meetings with the

Pakistan for meetings with the Prime Minister and the President. The

welcome may have been warm, but

welcome may have been warm, but this is a nation Mr Howard says is

is a nation Mr Howard says is driven with divisions. A nation sometimes

accused by its neighbours of

accused by its neighbours of playing a double game with terrorism in

India and Afghanistan. It's also

still struggling to recover from an

earthquake last month that kill in

order than 70,000 people and left 3

million more without a home as

winter sets in. When meeting with

Pervez Musharraf Mr Howard promised

to bring Mr Relief to the quake.

I gave my extreme gratitude to the

Prime Minister for all of the

assistance that Australia is giving

us. For the medical team in the

hardest area. Mr Howard

congratulated Pervez Musharraf for

his role in the war on terror.

It's win thing for us in a rel

#2i6ly benign atmosphere in a

country like Australia to talk

country like Australia to talk about taking strong stands on things,

taking strong stands on things, it's entirely another thing when sit

entirely another thing when sit part and parcel of your existence to be

threatened with assassination

attempts. And security in Pakistan

on all its frontds is important to

Australia. Co-operation the war on

terror is specially significant

here. Over the years a number of

Australians are alleged to have

Australians are alleged to have come to Pakistan to train with a banned

terrorist organisation right under

the noses of the Pakistani military

T militants are strongest where the

recent earthquake hit the hardest

and tomorrow the Prime Minister and

president Musharraf will travel

together to the quake zone to look

at Australian relief efforts there.

Matt Brown, Lateline. In Israel, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has launched a bold strategy that could radically alter the country's party politics. He has quit the Likud Party and asked for early elections next year. Mr Sharon says he'll contest them as leader of a new centrist party

that will back his strategy of reaching a final peace agreement with the Palestinians. Norman Hermant reports. Ariel Sharon has always been a risk taker and this is his biggest political gamble yet. (Speaks Hebrew) "After much soul-searching, I decided today to quit the Likud," said Israel's Prime Minister. "The Likud, in its present configuration, "cannot lead the nation to its national goals." Earlier, the warrior-turned-politician visited Israel's President to call for elections. He has turned his back on his own party, after Likud hardliners fought a bitter campaign against his decision to pull Israeli settlements out of Gaza earlier this year. Now Ariel Sharon wants to go further and reach a permanent deal with the Palestinians. In order to do that, he must make great concessions in the West Bank. He must deal with the settlement problem ih the West Bank as well.

He couldn't have done that within the Likud. Sharon's new party, tentatively called 'National Responsibility', could cause a massive shift in Israeli politics. The biggest since the party Sharon helped found - Likud - won power for the first time in 1977. Then, Sharon the general was already a living legend,

renowned for his high-risk counter-attack in the Sinai in the 1973 war that crushed the Egyptian army. Later, he became a key architect of Israel's settlement policy, placing hundreds of thousands of Israelis in settlements on occupied land, all in the name of boosting Israel's security. After years of violence, Sharon's thinking has come full circle. He's prepared to deal with the Palestinians and give up some settlements, but not all.

There's no guarantee this political gamble will work. Can Sharon win an election, number one? And, number two, will he be able to put together a coalition - since no Israeli party has ever gained an absolute majority in the Knesset - will he be able to find those coalition allies to create a centrist party?

Those are the two big ifs. Sharon could well find himself in a battle with his arch rival, former prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

He's the frontrunner to lead Likud, on the right of the political spectrum.

On the left, Sharon will face the new leader of the Labour Party, Amir Peretz. Israel's Prime Minister will try to occupy the middle, drawing centrists from both of his leading opponents. The goal would be to lead a centre-left coalition in favour of his negotiation strategy. I think that there is a great opportunity for such a grant coalition to settle our issues with the Palestinians

and to try to put Israel back on track. As always for Ariel Sharon, the stakes are high. So are the rewards.

Norman Hermant, Lateline. The Australian model Michelle Leslie has arrived home after serving a three month sentence in a Balinese jail for drug possession. Leslie was met by a throng of reporters at Sydney Airport

but spoke only briefly.

The events of the last three months

have just really turned my life upside down. Leslie is considering about 20 offers from the media for exclusive rights to her story. The former Federal Court judge Marcus Einfeld offered this advice for free. Humiliating the Indonesian authorities

will not do them any good or this country any good at all. I think if I was advising Michelle it would be to lie low and keep quiet. A spokesman said no decisions had been made yet about accepting offers for an interview. Well, returning now to our top story and the desperate attempts to prevent Van Nguyen from being hanged in Singapore next week. The Federal Government says it's made all possible representations and nothing more can be done. But as we've heard, the Victorian Attorney-General Rob Hulls

is tonight preparing to fly to Singapore. So, will a personal plea on behalf of a State Government be enough to save a condemned man?

To discuss this and other developments I'm joined now from Adelaide by the Foreign Minister Alexander Downer.

We are joined by Alexander Downer.

Thanks for being there. It's a

pleasure. Rob Hulls is on his way

pleasure. Rob Hulls is on his way to Singapore tomorrow. He thinks sit

worthwhile to make a direct ple.

Wouldn't someone with your standing?

The region have an even better chance?

The region have an even bette Well, I suppose so in tleery, but

Well, I suppose so in tleery, but of course I've made an enormous effort

myself, including last week when I

was in South Korea. I had a large

discussion with George Yeo, my

Singapore counterpart with it. I

again tried to appeal with him. I

particularly personalised it saying

when you think about this young man

in prison with days left before he

hangs, you can't help but

hangs, you can't help but sympathise enormously with him and when you

enormously with him and when you see his mother in tears on television,

it's agonising and I hope that he'd

think about all of those things. He

did say that the Singapore

government felt sad about it, but

government felt sad about it, but it was their policy and they were

determined to stick with their

policy. So, I wish Mr Hulls well.

policy. So, I wish Mr Hulls well. Of course I do. But I regret to say

that I don't think it will make any

difference. So you would see no point

difference. So you would see no point in the Federal

Attorney-General or you yourself

actually going directly to

actually going directly to Singapore to make a last-ditch plea in the

same way that Mr Hulls is? Well, to

be frank, I mean I don't want to

sound as though we are giving up

because I feel very pained about

this, to tell you the truth, but I

have to be realistic and it's

important not to hold out false

hopes to people, particularly to

hopes to people, particularly to Van Nguyen and his family. I'm not

Nguyen and his family. I'm not going to do that. I've said all along

through this and I've been

criticised sometimes for it, I

honestly think that we've probably

done just about all we can. We've

been more recently over the last

been more recently over the last two days going through all of the

different legal options, flairly in

relation to the prospect of going

relation to the prospect of going to the International Court of Justice,

but whichever way you look the road

appears to be blocked. I'll come

back to the International Court of

Justice in a moment. Do you see any

hope at all for a potential

hope at all for a potential prisoner exchange deal of some sort? That's

what Mr Hulls appears to be pin

what Mr Hulls appears to be pinning

his hopes on? Well, we don't have a

prisoner exchange arrangement with

Singapore and even if we did,

prisoner exchange agreements

typically don't involve people who

are facing capital punishment, I

guess for rather obvious reasons.

guess for rather obvious reasons. We have a prisoner exchange agreement

with Thailand. We're negotiating

with Thailand. We're negotiating one with Singapore but the other

prisoner exchange arrangements we

have are with European countries

have are with European countries and the US. I'm pretty sure I am right

in saying this this that in every

case people who are faced with

capital punishment aren't eligible

for prisoner exchange. Do you know

why the Prime Minister said today

that international pressure -

that international pressure - pretty much said, I'll just wait for you

much said, I'll just wait for you to get that earpiece back in properly.

It's alright, thanks. -- said

international pressure could today

in fact be counterproductive?

Well, I just think in the end

enormous pressure has been and is

being put on the Singapore

government. I mean you, could put

forward, for example, a proposal

that not just the Victorian

government but all of the state

premiers should get together and

plead as well with the Singapore

government in the way that the

Federal Government has been doing.

Look, they could do that, but I

Look, they could do that, but I fear no matter how hard we plead and no

matter how strong the arguments we

make, which I think all of us here

in Australia who are involved in

this issue feel are rather

convincing arguments, the

Singaporean Government won't accept

then. I mean, they've been through

these situations on a number of

occasions before and they're

educated by their own experience

back in 1 9 68 there was a case

where they executed three

Indonesians and the Indonesians

burnt down the Singapore embassy in

Jakarta and the ambassador's

residence in 1 9 94 or '95 there

residence in 1 9 94 or '95 there was a great cause celeb when the

Singaporeans hanged a Filipino who was work

was working in Singapore and there

was a tremendous response from the

Philippines, but in the lead-up to

both of those events, the

Singaporeans didn't back down and,

look, since 1 9 65 they've only

granted clemency on six occasions

and only on two occasions in

relation to the death sentence,

which has been handed down for drug

offences. And why on those two

occasions and is there no

possibility this could be a third

occasion that if Australia put

enough pressure on, that if the

international community applied

further pressure, that this could

not be a third occasion, since

not be a third occasion, since there are precedents? I had a look at

that. In one of those two occasions

I think it was an 18-year-old

I think it was an 18-year-old mother of two who was sentenced to death,

she testified against her partner

she testified against her partner at the time and her partner was hanged

and she was granted clemency. In

and she was granted clemency. In the other case there was also a mother

of two children. She wasn't hanged

because she was dying of cancer.

because she was dying of cancer. She subsianly did. Look, only yesterday

you said you had lawyers looking at

these International Court of

these International Court of Justice options. The Prime Minister seemed

to jump in today and pre-empt you.

Was he acting on the advice that

your lawyers had come up with?

Well, I have spoken to the Prime

Minister this afternoon. He was in

Islamabad. We've got a lot of

Islamabad. We've got a lot of advice from our lawyers, from the Attorney-General's Department and

the lawyers in my department and in

every case - w''ve gone through a

number of different scenarios with

them - and they said to go to the

international coarse of justice

requires Singapore to accept its

jurisdiction and Singapore doesn't

accept its jurisdiction. So unless

you could persuade Singapore to

accept the jurisdiction of the

court, which quite obviously would

be impossible, it does appear that

that road is blocked. We have been

through a lot of different

through a lot of different scenarios and people have been putting

and people have been putting forward different suggestions and we've

different suggestions and we've gone to the lawyers with these

suggestions. So far we've turned up

with nothing. You'd be aware that

Van Nguyen's lawyer Le x Lasry says

they could be compel

they could be compelled because

they could be compelled because it's a signatory to the European sans.

But they don't accept the

jurisdiction of the court and if

jurisdiction of the court and if you don't accept the jurisdiction of

don't accept the jurisdiction of the court n tend the court won't hear

the case under article 378.5. I've

been through so much of this over

the last few days, under rule 38.5

both parties have to accept the

jursz diction of the court for the

court to list the case. Do you

court to list the case. Do you think that in the end Australians are

that in the end Australians are just going to have to get used to having

its - we, their citizens executed?

After all, this scenario, this

dreadful scenario could be

multiplied by nine in Bali? Well,

multiplied by nine in Bali? Well, we have of course had Australians on

death row and I'll remind you, and

you will remember I think, we had

two Australians on death row in

Vietnam. We pleaded desperately for

clemency in those cases and in both

cases clemency was granted. We've

had an Australian on death row in

China. The Chinese have suspended

the death sentence for two years;

subject to their good behaviour in

prison of the convicted person.

We'll always appeal and appeal very

passionately for clemency. Of

course, in an ideal world I'd like

to see countries abandon the death

penalty all together. But there are

around 80 countries around the

around 80 countries around the world that have the death penalty. So

particularly for murder and drug

offences, obviously people need to

understand that in a lot of

countries around the world and in

countries around the world and in 38 states of the US, those kinds of

offences, particularly in the US

murder, but in others often drug

offences do bring with them the

death penalty. Alright. A quick

diversion, the Michelle Leslie case.

Marcus ien field has asked her to

keep her silence as to not hurt

other jailed Australians. Do you

think he is right? I think he is

quit right. I heard that grab on

your news beforehand and I thought

what he said made very good sense.

what he said made very good sense. I think she'd be much better to

think she'd be much better to accept that she's now been freed from the

prison. She was convicted and get

three months and served her three

most and she's been released at the

end of her sentence. She should be

relieved that and say not guilty

more about it and get on with the

rest of her life Don't think she

should make a grade media display

out of it I'm very opposed to

out of it I'm very opposed to people in these circumstances diving into

the media and in this case the

proposition she might try to

capitalise financially on

capitalise financially on Committing an offence and a conviction, I

an offence and a conviction, I think that's pretty unprincipal table.

A final quick question on domestic

policy and a dramatic turn in the

polls. Are you nervous at the

polls. Are you nervous at the people who put you into government, the

so-called Howard battlers, appear

so-called Howard battlers, appear to be the ones that are more worried

about the new IR reforms? Well, I

think people are concerned about

think people are concerned about the reforms and inevitably when a

government makes changes, there's

uncertainty about the impact of

those changes in the community and

we had a lot of experience over the

last 9.5 years of that. But that's

the fate of governments. You can't

just.stand still and just

just.stand still and just administer departments and do nothing to try

departments and do nothing to try to improve the competitiveness of your

country. We've got a big and

competitive world out there that

we've got to try and succeed in and

we can't just stand still and hope

that the rest of the world does the

same T rest of the world won't.

We've got to make these changes. I

think once the changes are

implemented, people will realise

that there are great benefits in

these changes, particularly that

they'll have much more discretion

and freedom in determining work

arrangements that suit individual

employees, better than might

otherwise be the case when those

arrangements are determined by some

authority in Melbourne. Alexander

Downer, no chance to quiz you on

that. It's outside your portfolio

area, but we thank you for coming

area, but we thank you for coming in to talk to us tonight. It's a pleasure.

To the markets now. The All Ordinaries finished lower today,

despite touching record highs in early trade.

Now to the weather. And that's all for this evening. If you'd like to look back at tonight's interview or review any of Lateline's stories or transcripts,

you can visit our website at: www.abc.net.au/lateline I'll be back tomorrow night, so please join me then.

Goodnight. Closed Captions produced by Captioning and Subtitling International Pty Ltd

This program is not subtitled

This program is not subtitled

This program is not subtitled MAN: A few years ago, a jukebox came to light which was owned by John Lennon in the 1960s. The jukebox was a portable travel companion and it contains a list of 40 records written in Lennon's own handwriting. The records - a mix of rock'n'roll, rhythm and blues and soul - were Lennon's personal favourites.

Some are classics, others remain obscure. Collectively, they represent the songs which shaped his musical education. Tonight's program examines the contents of John Lennon's jukebox and reveals the influences behind the music which revolutionised pop. JOHN LENNON: I had no idea about doing music as a way of life until rock'n'roll hit me, and then when rock'n'roll hit me, that changed my whole life. (Sings) # Well... # Be-bop-a-lula She's my baby

I don't mean maybe # Be-bop-a-lula She's my baby I don't mean maybe # Be-bop-a-lula She-he-he's my baby doll # My baby doll, my baby doll... # LENNON: I was just interested in the music and how to do it. "How can I do that?" Which is what I was doing studying the records - I studied the records. What are they saying? How are they doing it? How do they make this music? What is it that they're doing that...that excites me that I want to do it? (Gene Vincent sings) # She's the one that loves me so

# Say, be-bop-a-lula She's my baby # Be-bop-a-lula I don't mean maybe # Be-bop-a-lula She-e-e's my baby doll # My baby doll, my baby doll Let's rock! # LENNON: Rock'n'roll only came into our consciousness when white people did it, but I think it was a euphemism for fucking. The actual words - rock'n'roll - it meant in bed together, rocking and rolling. That's what they were talking about. # Well, now, she's the one that's got that beat # She's the one with the flyin' feet... #

STING: I remember 'Be-Bop-a-Lula'. My mother brought that into the house in...1957, '58? I mean, I must have been six at the time. I remember rolling around on the floor in some kind of religious... You know, just rolling and shaking, it was so exciting. Some guy screams on the record. You know... (Laughs) Fantastic record. Let's see. It seems...a record seemed like a magical artefact. You know, something that came from another planet - America. (Little Richard screams) 'SLIPPIN' AND SLIDIN' PLAYS (Sings) # Oh, Malinda She's a solid sender # You know you'd better surrender # Oh, Malinda She's a solid sender # You know you'd better surrender

# Slippin' and a-slidin' Peepin' and a-hidin' # Won't be your fool no more... # Oh, my God. What's that? Oh, boy. That looks like a giant typewriter from 1943. I was surprised that there wasn't one Beatles record. If that was our jukebox, I can assure you there'd be 500 Leiber and Stoller songs on it, and there might be one Little Richard.

LENNON: When I was a kid, I was a fan of Elvis Presley and Little Richard and Chuck Berry. Up till then, all rock'n'rollers basically had either been black and poor, rural south, or whatever - city slum - and the whites had been truckers like Elvis. So rock'n'roll, this bit about when did it start, means when did the honkies notice it, that it was something strong and powerful and beautiful.

(Gary 'US' Bonds sings) # Well, come on, everybody, take a trip with me # Way down the Mississippi down to the New Orleans # Where the honeysuckle's bloomin' on the honeysuckle vine # And a-love is a-bloomin' there all of the time

# You know, every southern belle is a Mississippi queen # Down the Mississippi down in New Orleans # I said, hey-ey-ey-ey, yeah

# Hey-ey-ey-ey, yeah

# I said a hey, hey, hey, yeah... # I think John Lennon and the guys would have probably heard it in 19...somewhere in '60, because for about a year nobody played it and no radio station in the country would even touch it... ..you know, in '59, which is why the record wasn't even considered out until 1960 - because we couldn't get anybody to play it. In those days, music was put into categories, back in the '50s, early '60s, you know.