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7.30 Report -

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This program is captioned live. Welcome to the program. It's been 24 hours since nine young
Australians hit the headlines after being arrested in Bali trying to smuggle heroin out of the
country, and still many questions remain unanswered

Australian denies heroin ringleader claim

Australian denies heroin ringleader claim

Reporter: Jonathan Harley

MAXINE McKEW: It's been 24 hours since nine young Australians hit the headlines after being
arrested in Bali trying to smuggle heroin out of the country, and still many questions remain
unanswered about the individuals aged between 18 and 29 and their part in an alleged sophisticated
syndicate. Indonesian police claim Sydney man Andrew Chan is the "godfather" of the group - a claim
he denies. But it's been revealed today that Andrew Chan and three others were more than friends.
All were employed by a Sydney catering company on a casual basis. The group spent the day being
interrogated by Indonesian police, and we'll have details of that in a moment from our
correspondent, Peter Lloyd, who's in Bali. But first, this report from Jonathan Harley.

JONATHAN HARLEY: If we're to believe these bonfires, staged for the cameras and visiting
dignitaries, heroin is a problem Burma's military regime is stamping out well before it reaches the
porous border into Thailand and flows on to countries like Australia. But no-one believes it.
Depending on the season, Burma and Afghanistan ultimately are the world's top producers of heroin.
The heroin said to be strapped around the bodies of the Australian mules arrested in Indonesia is
almost certainly from Burma or northern Thailand, the heart of the so-called "Golden Triangle".

PROFESSOR MARK FINDLAY, INSTITUTE OF CRIMINOLOGY, SYDNEY UNIVERSITY: What's unusual about this now
is that the syndicates are selecting Australian couriers, and bringing them offshore, in fact, to
transfer drugs through to Australia, at fairly vulnerable spots.

JONATHAN HARLEY: Even in the audacious high risk business of trafficking, the latest Bali drug
swoop is breath-taking. Nine arrests with potentially more to come. More than 10 kilograms of
heroin worth millions of dollars on Australian streets. But according to some observers, it's
unusual for another key reason. The decision by the Australian Federal Police Force to cede the
sting to their Indonesian counterparts.

PROFESSOR PAUL WILSON, CRIMINOLOGIST, BOND UNIVERSITY: It's fairly unusual, but not uncommon. It's
unusual because I think most police forces like to take credit for getting large drug-smuggling
operations.

PROFESSOR MARK FINDLAY: There's a lot said about police cooperation internationally and yet police
are notoriously territorial. It's very difficult to get state police to cooperate with each other,
let alone the Federal Police offshore. I think this has wider ramifications and they are that the
AFP and the Federal Government are keen to generate good will with the law enforcement authorities
in Indonesia, and also I think the AFP wants to exhibit a capacity to influence policing in other
parts of the region.

JONATHAN HARLEY: But the AFP and federal minister say it simply made practical operational sense.

SENATOR CHRIS ELLISON, JUSTICE MINISTER: The AFP have an outstanding record in the fight against
illicit drugs and they did what is their job. They set about investigating the intelligence they
gleaned, they sought assistance from the Indonesian police, which you would expect. As a result of
that, an investigation ensued by the Indonesian police. They placed certain people under
surveillance in Bali and these arrests were carried out.

JONATHAN HARLEY: But the net effect of these Indonesian arrests is that if these nine Australians
are found guilty, they could face death by firing squad.

TERRY O'GORMAN, COUNCIL FOR CIVIL LIBERTIES: If they are convicted in an Indonesian court, it's the
death penalty.

SENATOR CHRIS ELLISON: Are we going to bat for the person concerned if the death penalty is applied
and is - they've been sentenced to that, but in this case we are facing a situation where nine
Australians have been arrested and charges have yet to be laid, so I think any talk of penalty
really is quite premature.

PROFESSOR PAUL WILSON: We'll have to see, in fact, whether any higher-ups are actually caught and
punished, that is, if the charges, when they are laid against these nine Australians, when these
charges are heard and if they are found guilty.

JONATHAN HARLEY: Criminologist Paul Wilson has more than a passing from the Indonesian justice
system. He has appeared as a defence witness in the trial which has captured the attention of
Australians - that of Schapelle Corby, accused of trafficking cannabis into Indonesia. But this
case, heroin allegedly being smuggled out of Indonesia, is a more conventional scenario.

PROFESSOR PAUL WILSON: I see that these two cases are completely different. The motivations
involved, the characters allegedly involved, the people behind the scenes, the profits involved in
each of the cases are completely different.

JONATHAN HARLEY: Those arrested are, from New South Wales, the alleged ringleader, 21-year-old
Andrew Chan, Martin Eric Stevens, aged 29, 27-year-old Renae Lawrence, and the youngest of those
alleged at just 18, Matthew James Norman. Also from NSW, 20-year-old Si Yi Chen and Myuran
Sukumaran aged 24 years. From Brisbane 27-year-old Tach Duc Thanh Nguyen, Michael Czugaj aged 19
and Scott Anthony Rush also 19. In Indonesia, all of them can be held for 70 days before charging,
but far from there, family, friends, neighbours and colleagues are incredulous.

PAT DEAN, NEIGHBOUR: He was a very friendly lad, and he'd help anyone.

JONATHAN HARLEY: In the suburbs of Wollongong, south of Sydney, the family home of 29-year-old
Martin Stevens is all but abandoned and neighbour Pat Dean is baffled.

PAT DEAN: No, I couldn't see Martin doing it. He always struck me as totally against that sort of
thing altogether, you know, sort of thing and he was a clean-living lad. Never any problems. And as
I say it's been a bit of a shock.

JONATHAN HARLEY: In Brisbane, the sister of Tach Thanh Nguyen is trying to grasp what has happened,
not alone what to do.

SISTER OF THANH NGUYEN: We haven't heard anything, not even a phone call. All we know is basically
what we read on the papers or what we see on TV. We need to find money just to see him. Just
hearing from him at the moment, we'd be happy, knowing how he is.

JONATHAN HARLEY: In Sydney's well-heeled Rose Bay, four of the accused worked for Seasons
hospitality.

GEORGE MIFSUD, SEASON HOSPITALITY: I have never had any performance issues raised with us on their
performance.

JONATHAN HARLEY: The Bali nine still have a long way to go. They're yet to be charged. But they're
surely aware of the ultimate punishment for drug smuggling. Many of them weren't even born when in
neighbouring Malaysia, Kevin Barlow and Brian Chambers were sentenced in 1986 for trafficking 180
grams of heroin. They were sent to the gallows. And most recently, 23-year-old Melbourne man Chong
Van is on death row in Singapore for smuggling nearly 400 grams of heroin. In his case as always
the Australian Government has appealed for clemency but with the AFP effectively delivering these
suspects to Indonesian authorities, some are wondering whether Australia's stand against capital
punishment will be compromised.

TERRY O'GORMAN: If they're found guilty, it's death penalty by the firing squad, and the issue here
is: has the Australian Government changed policy?

SENATOR CHRIS ELLISON: Well, I think that talk of a firing squad is really, at this stage, rather
premature. These people have not yet even been charged.

PROFESSOR MARK FINDLAY: We do certainly have to ask ourselves: is it an issue or is it a feature of
current drug trafficking that young Australians are being recruited in a fairly easy fashion and if
that's the case, what are we going to do about it?

MAXINE McKEW: Jonathan Harley reporting there.

More arrests tipped in Bali heroin case

More arrests tipped in Bali heroin case

Reporter: Peter Lloyd

MAXINE McKEW: Well, following events all day in Denpasar has been the ABC's South-East Asia
correspondent, Peter Lloyd, and I caught up with him a short time ago. Peter, Indonesian police are
indicating, I gather, that there could be more arrests to follow. Is this based on the information
gleaned from the interrogation today?

PETER LLOYD: Maxine, from the very beginning, the Indonesian authorities have said that they
believe that there are more people involved in this conspiracy than merely those nine who've been
arrested. They haven't made clear whether they're talking there about Indonesian nationals or,
indeed, Australians who are also here in Bali and yet to make return trips to Australia.

MAXINE McKEW: Now, just bring us up to date on what's been happening today.

PETER LLOYD: Maxine, I'm standing right in front of the police cells, where the nine are being
held, and they've been paraded essentially from that space behind me, about 100 yards that way, to
the police detectives' room, where the interrogation process has begun. Today, all nine were
fingerprinted, basic details about them - their name, where they're from, their story - was taken
down by the Indonesian Drug Squad, and also a counterpart from the Australian Federal Police, based
here in Bali - he was also in the room - and the interrogation process kicked off at that point and
will resume tomorrow morning and could take many days to come.

MAXINE McKEW: Now, the nine are not being held separately, I gather?

PETER LLOYD: No. All nine suspects, the Australians, are being held together here at the Bali
police station. They're in one large police holding cell area under guard by about a half a dozen
or so police. And at some point later this evening we expect the families of some of those nine to
begin arriving here in Bali.

MAXINE McKEW: Presumably that will be quite an intense scene, once that starts to happen, because
obviously there have been comments from some of the families today, those whom the media are able
to approach. Clearly they're bewildered about all of this and they're protesting the innocence of
their family members?

PETER LLOYD: Well, that's right and, I mean, naturally enough. Parents would always defend their
children's honesty in these situations and also, they are clearly people who are deeply shocked at
the suddenness of this. Many of these people have children who are very young, on their first
journey, at the very least, to Indonesia, possibly overseas, and in the case of Andrew Chan, a
21-year-old Sydney man who is being described by the Indonesian authorities as the godfather of
this conspiracy, his family didn't even know that he had left the country.

MAXINE McKEW: Now, he was talking to the press today. What did he have to say for himself?

PETER LLOYD: Andrew Chan is the only one of the nine who spoke out today to the press and,
essentially, launched a very strong defence of the claim that he is the godfather of this alleged
conspiracy. He said that he was not caught with any drugs. He is accused of being on board the
plane ready to leave, but not in the possession himself of drugs. And he says that's just not true,
that he was here on a holiday and that he is claiming, essentially, that they've done a Schapelle
Corby, that the Indonesian authorities have fitted him up. And he is defiantly insisting he is no
godfather, he's just a tourist.

MAXINE McKEW: There's another interesting point here. I'm wondering if there's been any comment
from the Indonesian police as to why they in fact moved to make these arrests, when they did,
instead of allowing the nine perhaps to board the plane and be apprehended in Australia?

PETER LLOYD: Well, the Indonesian authorities have made it very clear from the beginning of this
process that this is their case. The Australians brought it to them, sure, but for the last 10
weeks, they've been taking the running and have been following these people's whereabouts here in
Bali, and they were stopped short of leaving the country. And, as far as the Indonesians are
concerned, this is a crime that was committed in this country and, as a result, will be prosecuted
here in this country, regardless of the fact that the eventual potential penalty these people face
is far harsher - it's death by firing squad in Indonesia, compared to, in Australia, a conviction
for trafficking of heroin of several years in jail.

MAXINE McKEW: And that, of course, has led to the charge that's been made by the Council for Civil
Liberties today that, in fact, Australia is guilty of exporting the death penalty because of the
tip-off from the AFP to the Indonesian police?

PETER LLOYD: Indeed, but the Indonesians counter here by saying, effectively, look at it from the
other point of view. What if some Indonesian nationals were caught at Sydney Airport trying to
export drugs to this country? Is that a crime that should be prosecuted in Australia, since that is
where the drugs are being trans-shipped from, or is this a problem for them here in their
jurisdiction? The Indonesians say, well, it's pretty clear that this is our case, drugs in this
country, these people committed the crime here, in a country where it's quite well known that the
penalties for such an offence are extremely high. You can't get off a plane, for example, at
Denpasar Airport without at least twice being told or reading that the penalty for drug trafficking
in this country is death.

MAXINE McKEW: And just a final quick point, Peter - any idea of when the nine are likely to be
charged?

PETER LLOYD: Well, Maxine, under Indonesian law, they can be held for quite a good deal of time
while the investigation continues - up to 70 days at the bare minimum to be held here at this
police operations centre in Denpasar. That's before being charged. Then, at that point, when
they're charged, they'll be handed over to the prosecution and essentially they will become the
prosecution's prisoners. They'll be moved to a jail, probably the same one where Schapelle Corby is
currently in residence, and there begins what will be a very lengthy process of them being brought
to trial - perhaps as a group or as individuals, it's not clear - and that will take many months,
even years, for that process to be completed.

MAXINE McKEW: Peter Lloyd, for that, thank you very much indeed.

PETER LLOYD: Thank you, Maxine.

Crowds wait for white smoke

Crowds wait for white smoke

Reporter: Mark Simkin

MAXINE McKEW: As we go to air tonight, thousands of people are gathering in St Peter's Square in
Rome staring up at a chimney and praying for a white puff of smoke. Day two of the papal conclave
sees crowds still waiting for the election of a new pope. Inside the Sistine Chapel under
Michelangelo's magnificent ceiling, 115 cardinals are in search of the two-thirds majority that's
needed to elect John Paul II's successor. Commentators say it's still an open field, although there
is a lot of support for someone from the Third World. As Mark Simkin reports from the Vatican, the
man who is chosen will be required to exercise exceptional moral and political leadership.

MARK SIMKIN: From first light, people have been praying. Scenes like this are being repeated across
the country as Catholics urge God to guide the cardinals.

ROBERT MOYNIHAN, EDITOR, 'INSIDE THE VATICAN': It's as if you're trying to choose, in a sense, a
great star for your football team. They're all great but he's got to have that special quality that
separates him from the rest.

MARK SIMKIN: The faithful are well aware that more is at stake than just religion. The conclave's
decision has implications that are global and political.

THOMAS REESE, VATICAN COMMENTATOR: If we had a Pope who could really reached out and bridged the
gap between western civilisation and the Muslim community, I mean this whole clash of cultures that
people are talking about, clash of civilisations, that would be so important in terms of world
peace, and the future.

MARK SIMKIN: The conclave is infused with intrigue, mystery and the participants believe, the holy
spirit. The doors of the Sistine Chapel are barred, the first full day of balloting has begun.
These 115 princes of the church will keep voting until one of their number wins a two thirds
majority. Mobile phones are banned. The floor of the chapel is full of electronic jamming
equipment, special vows of secrecy have been taken. This is the cardinals' only way of
communicating with the outside world - the smoke from the burned ballots.

THOMAS REESE: Compare them to the owners of a restaurant. They want to present the people with a
beautiful, delicious meal, but they don't want you sticking your nose into the kitchen.

MARK SIMKIN: The cardinals are virtual prisoners, albeit willing ones. At night, they're bussed to
a new purpose built residence. There are no phones, no Internet, no television or aid radio and yet
it's the most comfortable conclave in history.

THOMAS REESE: It's not a four-star hotel, but it's - you know, but it's a good motel. I mean, the
rooms are adequate. They have bathrooms and in the last election, they were all in kind of cubicles
in the Apostolic palace. Which is like living in a museum, and you had 10 cardinal sharing one
bathroom.

MARK SIMKIN: Despite all the solemnity and secrecy, this is still a glorified election. A unique
mixture of prayer and politics. Robert Moynihan is a Vaticanista, a Vatican watcher. He says the
conclave is like a family.

ROBERT MOYNIHAN: You bring all the cousins and uncles and you say "Who will we choose to be the
head of the family?" And they said, "Well we're looking for someone who will be strong and decisive
and give us good leadership but we don't want a dictator." So they're going to choose uncle Alfred,
who's kind and thoughtful, but tough.

MARK SIMKIN: So to what extent is there politicking, caucusing, lobbying going on?

ROBERT MOYNIHAN: Well the holy spirit never acts entirely alone. They are men. Some of them are
going to have stomach aches, some of them are going to have headaches. They'll try to allow the
holy spirit to act through their own weaknesses.

MARK SIMKIN: Some of those weaknesses are being displayed. Mud is being thrown. Italian newspapers
are publishing rumours about the front runners' private lives, accusing one cardinal of having
diabetes, another of suffering from Parkinson's disease and another of being involved in a plot to
kidnap two priests.

THOMAS REESE: It's a very strange election, you know. You would never see anything like it in the
US or Australia. The candidates don't campaign.

MARK SIMKIN: So who is likely to win? There are plenty of self-appointed prophets. This Irish
bookmaker has cheekily set up shop just outside the walls of the Vatican. He says bets are pouring
in from around the world.

PADDY POWER, BOOKMAKER: We normally try to compare these non-sporting events together. We're hoping
to compare this with something like the Oscars, which is quite a big event, but this is the daddy
of all. The Oscars pales into insignificance compared to. This it's like betting on a presidential
election. Nothing is ever as big as this is, you know.

MARK SIMKIN: A key candidate, or perhaps king maker is Germany's Joseph Ratzinger. The 78-year-old
is sometimes called God's rottweiler because of his conservative beliefs. The leading Italian is
Dionigi Tettamanzi, thought to represent a more moderate camp than the German. Francis Arinze from
Africa is the bookies' favourite. He'd be the first black Pope in 1,500 years and a strong advocate
of better relations with Islam. Some predict that will be a defining issue in the conclave. In
recent months, many of the papal front runners have been speaking out about the Muslim march,
concerned Europe is no longer Christianity's heartland.

THOMAS REESE: In Europe, we have more Muslims going to the mosque on Friday in Paris than there are
Catholics going to church on Sunday in Paris. And the Muslims are all having babies and the
Catholics are practicing birth control.

MARK SIMKIN: Commentators are predicting a repeat of the last conclave when the two front runners
became deadlocked and a compromise candidate emerged from nowhere. The reality, though, is that
no-one knows who will be elected. There's an old Vatican saying, "He who goes in a pope, comes out
a cardinal." The one thing that everyone does agree on is that the new Pope will not be from the
United States.

THOMAS REESE: I mean the United States is the only superpower left in the world, and if an American
was elected Pope, a lot of people in the Third World would think that the CIA fixed the election or
somehow Wall Street bought the election, and especially in Muslim countries, this would be
extremely controversial. They would think, "is he going to be the chaplain for the White House?"

MARK SIMKIN: If not north America, then what about further south? Two thirds of the world's
Catholics live in the Southern Hemisphere. And nearly half in Latin American. The patrons of this
Rome nightclub insist the church danced to a Latin beat. "It would be nice, because we have the
highest number of Catholics," this man says. "It would be good for all the poor people of Latin
American, and Africa and all of Third World countries."

THOMAS REESE: Well, certainly the issues of the Third World are going to be strongly promoted in
this conclave. 35 per cent of the College of Cardinals is from the Third World. So they're very
concerned about the poverty of their people. They're concerned about globalisation, farmers being
displaced...and that sort of thing...in their countries.

MARK SIMKIN: The longest conclave on record took 2.5 years. Few people expect this one will last
any more than a week, but that doesn't mean the decision will be easy. The cardinals aren't just
choosing a pope, they're determining the future direction of the Catholic Church, and its one
billion members.

Writer haunted by the killing years

Writer haunted by the killing years

Reporter: Mick O'Donnell

MAXINE McKEW: This Anzac Day marks 60 years since the final stages of World War II. Many of the
remaining veterans of that bloody struggle are now reaching their twilight years, among them Tom
Hungerford, the Western Australian writer whose unflinching depictions of jungle fighting are
acknowledged as some of the best writing to come out of the war. Now, at the age of 90, Tom
Hungerford is about to publish a new book of stories, and he says he has another four novellas in
the pipeline. Mick O'Donnell reports on the life and times of an old soldier who still has plenty
of fire in his belly.

NARRATOR 1: "His aim squarely in the centre of the scout's back between the shoulder blades. He
ever so gently presses the trigger of his Owen."

NARRATOR 2: "The exhilaration of the act of the hammer of the guns and the blokes sprawling and
bleeding on the track and your own fears."

MICK O'DONNELL: In his acclaimed war novel, The Ridge and The River and in this recent ABC radio
play, Tom Hungerford is brutally frank about the act of killing.

NARRATOR 2: "Young soldier Wainwright cannot be expected to realise he will hear that scream time
and time again in random moments of reflection 40, 50, 60 years away in the future."

MICK O'DONNELL: And filmed one Anzac Day in the 1970s, he could still talk of the pleasure of
killing in war.

TOM HUNGERFORD, WRITER: Most people who haven't been to war generally think that what you endure is
horror and terror and blood and guts. Well, of course it's there, but this is only - this is the
pay-off. That's the fun.

MICK O'DONNELL: But now in the twilight of his adventure-filled life, this old commando who fought
in the jungles of Bougainville is haunted by the killing years.

TOM HUNGERFORD: What we did was murder. Bang! (Sighs) When you get old you think like this. I hated
their rotten guts, and I thought when I was going out to Japan before I went up in the occupation I
thought, "I'll give these people bloody curry." People.

MICK O'DONNELL: At the end of the war, Hungerford joined the Commonwealth Occupation Force in Japan
and soon realised that the Japanese he lived amongst were as human and even love loveable as
himself.

TOM HUNGERFORD: I looked down and saw girls, nice rosy cheeks - nothing sexual about it - just
nice-looking people, and old mamas waving to us, and I thought, "These aren't murderers."

MICK O'DONNELL: He's almost 90 and Hungerford has just survived a brush with kidney failure. But he
is still writing and about to release a new book of poetry and short stories. His characters bring
to life intimate memories of 60 years ago and love in post-war Japan.

TOM HUNGERFORD READS: "Do I dream about her as he lay beside his wife. Andrew, I could swear you
were crying in your sleep last night. And I'm sure you were talking Japanese."

MICK O'DONNELL: What's less known about Tom Hungerford's army experience is his leadership of two
mutinies in the ranks.

TOM HUNGERFORD: I said "Colonel, there's some demands from the men." He said, "Demands, sergeant?"
I said, "Requests, sir." He said, "Sergeant, you know you can be shot for this." (Laughs)

MICK O'DONNELL: And you could have been?

TOM HUNGERFORD: I said, "I won't be." I said, "Those days are gone." And that set him back on his
arse.

MICK O'DONNELL: Michael Crouch has written a biography of Hungerford, Literary Larrikin, which
describes the soldier's strikes or jack-ups.

MICHAEL CROUCH, BIOGRAPHER: There were mutinies. I mean, there should have been a court of inquiry
on each of those and they should have taken the ringleaders out and probably put them inside for a
bit but they didn't because they had a war to fight.

MICK O'DONNELL: Michael Crouch obtained Hungerford's ASIO file for his biography.

MICHAEL CROUCH: The ASIO file was a total mishmash of material that was just out of context. They
made him sound as though he was a red rebel.

TOM HUNGERFORD: I had the name of being a communist and I wasn't. I hated communists!

MICK O'DONNELL: And just after the war, his publishers too were shy of his frank style.

TOM HUNGERFORD: There's no F-words or anything like that. And I do talk about a lady and gentlemen
having sex but it goes on.

MICK O'DONNELL: In the 50s he began many years as a journalist and press secretary, first for the
aging former prime minister Billy Hughes.

TOM HUNGERFORD: He said, "You've done nothing for me. I could get a cat to do it." I said, "Get a
cat to do it." (Laughs)

MICK O'DONNELL: And working back in Western Australia, Tom Hungerford showed his feisty
independence under both a Labor premier, John Tonkin, and a Liberal, Sir Charles Court.

TOM HUNGERFORD: He is a bully, Sir Charles, but you stand up to him, he is gone like most bullies,
just say, "No, no more," which I did to him.

MICK O'DONNELL: And when he is cornered, Hungerford is still up for a fight, this time with his own
biographer.

TOM HUNGERFORD: He'd been writing about my war service: "..Tom Hungerford was one of the
outstanding soldiers in the AIF during World War II..." I said, "No, I said, you can't put that in
the book." And I said, "Take it out." He said "No, I won't take it out." I said, "OK then, I will
withdraw any authority from the book," which I did.

MICHAEL CROUCH: When the crunch came he was hoping he would get the manuscript to basically sit on
for a bit and no doubt re-write the bits he didn't like. 'Prickly' is a rather nice word. A
recalcitrant hedgehog.

TOM HUNGERFORD READS: "..Talking to her and laughing with her in the room he had shared with
her..."

MICK O'DONNELL: But in his own writing, he mixes tough talk with sweet reminiscence.

TOM HUNGERFORD READS: "..Sometimes, making love..."

MICK O'DONNELL: And with his own new book and a biography coming out next month, he is one old
digger who is likely to warm a few hearts yet.

Some people describe you as a hero.

TOM HUNGERFORD: Oh no, that's ridiculous! That is - and I'm not being - that is preposterous. I was
one of a group of men all doing the same bloody thing. Sticking the head up, hoping to Christ it
wouldn't be shot off.

MAXINE McKEW: Tom Hungerford. Note, he still uses a typewriter. Mick O'Donnell with that report.

the outstanding soldiers in the AIF during World War II. I said "No, I said, you can't put that in
the book." And I said "Take it out. book." And I said "Take it out." He said no, I won't. I said
okay then, I will withdraw any authority from the book, which I did. When from the book, which I
did. When the crunch came he was hoping he would get the manuscript to basically sit on for a bit
and no doubt rewrite the bits he didn't like. Prickly is a rather nice word. A recalcitrant
hedgehog. Talking to her and laughing with her... But in his own writing, he mixes tough talk with
sweet reminiscence. Sometimes, making love... And with his own new book and a biography coming out
book and a biography coming out next month, he is one old digger who is likely to warm a few hearts
yet. Some people describe you as a hero. Oh no, that's ridiculous! That is - and I'm not being -
that's preposterous. I was one of a group of men all doing the same bloody thing. Sticking the head
up, hoping to Christ it wouldn't be shot off. Note, he still uses a typewriter! And that's the
program for tonight We'll be back at the same time tomorrow, but for now, goodnight. Captions by
Captioning and Subtitling International.