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Bankruptcy shadows asbestos foundation

Bankruptcy shadows asbestos foundation

Reporter: Matt Peacock

KERRY O'BRIEN: When it comes to timing, former asbestos manufacturer James Hardie can't take a
trick at the moment.

Just days after the company announced a multi-million dollar golden handshake for its disgraced
former chief executive, came the news that the foundation set up by Hardie to pay its asbestos
victims is on the verge of going broke.

The foundation's directors are warning that liquidation could leave countless asbestos victims,
most dying of incurable cancers, stranded without compensation.

Already the ACTU has threatened to break off negotiations with James Hardie unless it moves
immediately to fix the funding impasse.

Around the country there has been outrage over the company's stance, with the New South Wales Local
Government Association calling for a statewide ban of Hardie products.

This report from Matt Peacock.

MATT PEACOCK: Cool, calm and collected.

James Hardie's new chairman faces the media to defend what asbestos victims say is indefensible.

Huge payouts to former CEO Peter Macdonald and chief financial officer Peter Shafron.

MEREDITH HELLICAR, CHAIRMAN, JAMES HARDIE INDUSTRIES: We think it's in the best interests of the
company to pay out under their contracts and that's what we're doing.

REPORTER: How much?

MEREDITH HELLICAR: $US6.5 million for Peter Macdonald and $US865,000 for Peter Shafron.

MATT PEACOCK: Their departure came a full month after the Jackson commission found both had engaged
in misleading and deceptive conduct, claiming a Hardie foundation for asbestos victims was fully
funded.

Jackson estimated the fund's short at least $1.5 billion.

Now, foundation director Ian Hutchinson says its position's dire.

IAN HUTCHINSON, MEDICAL RESEARCH AND COMPENSATION FOUNDATION: It's a very critical problem such
that we are going to go to the court on Monday of next week, seeking directions with the likelihood
that ultimately the foundation will be put into liquidation.

MATT PEACOCK: So you could go into liquidation within weeks?

IAN HUTCHINSON: Within weeks, we could be in liquidation.

MATT PEACOCK: Hardly the message from Meredith Hellicar on Friday.

MEREDITH HELLICAR: I believe it has several years of funding left and it's therefore very important
that we put claimants in a position of not having to worry about where future funds are coming
from.

MATT PEACOCK: But last Wednesday, two days prior to this media conference, the foundation's
managing director, Dennis Cooper, had written to Meredith Hellicar issuing the blunt warning that:
"..it will shortly be necessary for the directors of the foundation to apply for the appointment of
a provisional liquidator."

And as a result: " ..payments to claimants will cease.

"People who have legitimate claims... may not receive any compensation."

IAN HUTCHINSON: There was a meeting last Friday attended by Dennis Cooper from the foundation,
myself with two of their representatives, the purpose of the meeting was for them to try and
understand more fully our financial position, but there have been no developments since then.

MATT PEACOCK: So they have no excuse really for not being fully aware of the critical nature of
this?

IAN HUTCHINSON: Absolutely.

There's no excuse whatsoever.

What we have asked for is for $100 million to be committed with no conditions attached, so that we
can continue to honour and pay claims.

MATT PEACOCK: In Sydney's western suburbs, Mark Hollis confronts the cruel reality of mesothelioma.

MARK HOLLIS, MESOTHELIOMA SUFFERER: I know I'm going to die.

I like to see my kids growing up.

MATT PEACOCK: The cancer's claimed one lung, and it's now spread around his heart.

MARK HOLLIS: They've removed by left lung, taken the whole thing out.

And I'm just coping with that.

They left me a really big scar on the front to the back.

So just got to put up with that.

MATT PEACOCK: If the liquidator is appointed to the Hardie foundation, Mark Hollis could get no
compensation.

IAN HUTCHINSON: The liquidator will probably immediately cease paying claims.

The liquidator will have to review the situation.

MATT PEACOCK: James Hardie Industries was the parent company of factories like this one, where the
lion's share of Australian asbestos products were made.

Australia's used more asbestos per capita than any other country in the world.

And we now have the highest rate of asbestos cancers - an epidemic that's growing.

Already up to 700 current victims could be affected if the foundation goes broke.

But there'll be many more, a fact that's today prompted outrage.

BOB CARR, NSW PREMIER: There'll be no compensation payment, they won't have money to live on.

Neither will their families.

That's the position in human terms that James Hardie has created.

MARK HOLLIS: Pay out, just don't be stingy.

MATT PEACOCK: When Hardie set up the underfunded foundation it promised it $85 million from the old
parent company James Hardie Industries, now renamed ABN60.

But it's a classic catch-22 situation.

The foundation can't even get that money without promising never to sue, something the foundation
says it must do if Hardie doesn't ensure future funds.

IAN HUTCHINSON: We believe we have very good causes of action against the Hardie group of companies
and against a number of individuals.

MATT PEACOCK: Hardie today expressed surprise about the foundation's plight, saying only last month
it offered assistance and blaming the foundation's delay in providing data for stalling the
negotiations on long-term funding, something Meredith Hellicar says she wants.

MEREDITH HELLICAR: We have made a commitment that we will take to shareholders a proposal to fund
legitimate current and future claimants against the former subsidiaries of James Hardie for
asbestos-related diseases.

IAN HUTCHINSON: I have never seen anything like this.

I don't know whether anyone else has either.

I just think it's a total disgrace and a black mark on corporate Australia.

MARK HOLLIS: Hardie's paid out this $9 million and none of us asbestos people will get any of it.

I think it's just a bunch of crap.

That's what I reckon.

KERRY O'BRIEN: Matt Peacock with yet another of those reports.

Matt Peacock with that report. Three Australian soldiers have been injured in a car bomb explosion
that killed at least three Iraqi civilians this morning Baghdad time. The explosion, believed to be
triggered by a remote control device, occurred not far from the Australian embassy. For more, I'm
joined now from Canberra by Brigadier Mike Hannan, Australian Defence Force spokesman. Mike Hannan,
what's the latest information on the three Australians and, for that matter, on the other
casualties? Yes, the three Australians would have been very lucky, Kerry. One of them has already
returned to duty after treatment with minor cuts and abrasions. One is suffering from concussion
and will require some further treatment. And a third is a little more seriously injured and is
undergoing some surgery for facial injuries, but these are not life-threatening and should make a
full recovery. Do you know how close they were to the explosion? We don't have the fine details of
the incident, but they were fairly close to the explosion, certainly the fact that injuries are so
light is a testament to the quality of the protection offered by the armoured vehicles they were
travelling in. So there were three armoured vehicles. What was their precise role at the time what
were they actually doing? They were conducting routine activities around the area, their main jobs
there are of course securing the area by constant patrolling, to ensure that none of the
belligerents get close to their own locations and our embassy, of course, and of course they also
provide secure transport for our diplomats and their duties. So it was in the area immediately
outside the actual secured zone, the so-called green zone? It was about 350m away from our
locations. Is there any sense that this car bomb had a specific target? Well, we don't have any
evidence to that effect at all. I think it would be very premature to jump to that conclusion. The
most likely scenario is that it was going to occur and we were just the unfortunate people who were
in the vicinity at the time. It's only last week that the Australian commander in Iraq, Brigadier
Peter Hutchinson warned in the 'Sydney Morning Herald' of increased threat to personnel with the
looming American election and then subsequently the Iraq election in January. I guess that does
make for a very unpredictable situation. It's unpredictable anyway, but perhaps makes it even more
so? I think we can't overemphasise the fact that Iraq is a dangerous place and that we are
absolutely focused on the security of our people and the safety of our people there. Certainly the
lessons to be drawn from this will be assessed very quickly and put into place within hours. Well,
I mean, from everything we've seen over the months and understanding the unpredictability of the
situation in Iraq, it would be hard to imagine that you're going to be able to be any more secure
in the foreseeable future than you have been up to now. What further precautions could you take
that you're not already taking? Well I'm not sure about that, but, certainly if there are lessons
to be learnt from this, it's very important that we knuckle down and learn them very quickly and
certainly adapt and adjust our procedures to ensure that we've got the best protection we can get
in terms of protecting our people and, of course, protecting the Australian diplomats doing such
important work for the country there. Given the warning that Brigadier Hutchinson talked about last
week, does that mean extra precaution? You'll increase the size of your patrols - does that in any
way enhance security? It may do. There might be a range of activities that we can take, and,
certainly, Brigadier Hutchinson on the ground and his detachment commanders will be looking at that
very closely. Their job there is to protect the Australian interests there, that's their focus and
they'll be taking every possible step to ensure that our people are as safe and as well protected
as they possibly can. But when it really comes down to it, got to be an element of luck, along with
anything else, in such a dicey situation? Well, I think every soldier understands that there's
always a bit of luck, but I'd have to say that luck certainly favours those that are best prepared

'Luck' aids Australians in car bomb attack

'Luck' aids Australians in car bomb attack

Reporter: Kerry O'Brien

KERRY O'BRIEN: Three Australian soldiers have been injured in a car bomb explosion that killed at
least three Iraqi civilians this morning, Baghdad time.

The explosion, believed to be triggered by a remote control device, occurred not far from the
Australian embassy, although the embassy does not appear to in any way have been the target.

For more, I'm joined now from Canberra by Brigadier Mike Hannan, Australian Defence Force
spokesman.

Mike Hannan, what's the latest information on the three Australians and, for that matter, on the
other casualties?

BRIGADIER MIKE HANNAN, DEFENCE FORCE SPOKESMAN: Yes, well, the three Australians have been very
lucky, Kerry.

One of them has already returned to duty after treatment, with minor cuts and abrasions.

One is suffering from concussion and will require some further treatment.

And a third is a little more seriously injured and is undergoing some surgery for facial injuries,
but these are not life-threatening and he should make a full recovery.

KERRY O'BRIEN: Do you know how close they were to the explosion?

BRIGADIER MIKE HANNAN: We don't have the fine details of the incident, but they were fairly close
to the explosion.

Certainly the fact that injuries are so light is a testament to the quality of the protection
offered by the armoured vehicles they were travelling in.

KERRY O'BRIEN: OK.

So there were three armoured vehicles.

What was their precise role at the time?

What were they actually doing?

BRIGADIER MIKE HANNAN: Well, they were conducting routine activities around the area.

Their main jobs there are, of course, securing the area by constant patrolling to ensure that none
of the belligerents get close to their own locations and our embassy, of course, and, of course,
they also provide secure transport for our diplomats and their duties around Baghdad.

KERRY O'BRIEN: So it was in the area immediately outside the actual secured zone, the so-called
green zone?

BRIGADIER MIKE HANNAN: It was about 350 metres away from our locations.

KERRY O'BRIEN: Now, is there any sense that this car bomb had a specific target?

BRIGADIER MIKE HANNAN: Well, we don't have any evidence to that effect at all.

I think it would be very premature to jump to that conclusion.

The most likely scenario is that it was going to occur and we were just the unfortunate people who
were in the vicinity at the time.

KERRY O'BRIEN: It's only last week that the Australian Commander in Iraq, Brigadier Peter
Hutchinson, warned in the Sydney Morning Herald of increased threat to personnel with the looming
American election and then subsequently the Iraq election in January.

I guess that does make for a very unpredictable situation.

It's unpredictable anyway, but perhaps makes it even more so?

BRIGADIER MIKE HANNAN: Yes.

Well, certainly, I think we can't overemphasise the fact that Iraq is a dangerous place and that we
are absolutely focused on the security of our people and the safety of our people there.

Certainly the lessons that are to be drawn from this will be assessed very quickly and put into
place within hours.

KERRY O'BRIEN: Well, I mean, from everything we've seen over the months and understanding the
unpredictability of the situation in Iraq, it would be hard to imagine that you're going to be able
to be any more secure in the foreseeable future than you have been up to now.

I mean, what further precautions could you take that you're not already taking?

BRIGADIER MIKE HANNAN: Well, I'm not sure about that but, certainly if there are lessons to be
learnt from this, it's very important that we knuckle down and learn them very quickly and
certainly adapt and adjust our procedures to ensure that we've got the best protection we can get
in terms of protecting our people and, of course, protecting the Australian diplomats who are doing
such important work for the country there.

KERRY O'BRIEN: Given the warning that Brigadier Hutchinson talked about last week, does that
presage, in fact, extra precautions?

I mean, that you'll increase the size of your patrols - does that in any way enhance security?

BRIGADIER MIKE HANNAN: It may do.

There might be a range of activities that we can take, and, certainly, Brigadier Hutchinson on the
ground and his detachment commanders will be looking at that very closely.

I mean, their job there is to protect the Australian interests there.

That's their focus and they'll be taking every possible step to ensure that our people are as safe
and as well protected as they possibly can.

KERRY O'BRIEN: But when it really comes down to it, there's got to be an element of luck along with
anything else in such a dicey situation?

BRIGADIER MIKE HANNAN: Well, I think every soldier understands that there's always a bit of luck,
but I'd have to say that luck certainly favours those that are best prepared and who make the best
efforts on their own behalf.

KERRY O'BRIEN: Brigadier Mike Hannan, thanks for talking with us.

BRIGADIER MIKE HANNAN: Thank you, Kerry.

US electoral system problems resurface

US electoral system problems resurface

Reporter: Jill Colgan

KERRY O'BRIEN: In little more than a week, more than a 100 million Americans will go to the polls
to choose their president, even though a similar number may choose not to vote at all.

Electoral authorities have had four years to fix the problems of the 2000 election count, which saw
the presidency hang in the balance for an agonising 36 days and left many Americans feeling
disenfranchised.

Yet, as the ABC's Washington correspondent Jill Colgan reports, American voters are again facing a
perplexing system that's already causing problems even before the first vote is counted.

JILL COLGAN: Autumn in Pennsylvania has arrived with the knowledge the presidential election is
just days away.

In this, one of three crucial swing states, every vote could make a difference in deciding the
presidency.

In historic County York, home to the nation's first capital, more than 200,000 voters will choose
whether or not to cast a ballot.

Voting is voluntary.

Putting democracy into practice is no simple matter here in the United States.

Instead of one single uniform voting system across the country, there are many.

Here in the state of Pennsylvania, people are expected to vote one of seven different ways, and it
varies county by county.

JOHN SCOTT, DIRECTOR OF VOTER REGISTRATION, COUNTY OF YORK: We're looking at a lever voting
machine, it's the kind that's been used in York County for over 50 years to record our votes here
both in federal, state and local elections.

JILL COLGAN: Every county in each of the 50 states is allowed to choose its own form of voting.

JOHN SCOTT: We don't change things easily unless there's a need to change them.

And this machine has worked very well in York County for 50 years now.

JILL COLGAN: Now, as in 2000, voters are confronted by a patchwork of systems with too little
funding and too few trained poll workers.

JOHN SCOTT: The vote is cast by leaving the levers down and remembering that the curtain is closed
so that anybody outside can't see it and when you turn the red lever back over to the left, those
levers moved up and then the curtain would have opened after the levers are up and your vote cast.

DOUG CHAPIN, DIRECTOR, electionline.org: The only thing that everyone agrees upon is that no-one
agrees on what the proper solution is.

JILL COLGAN: Americans squirm at the memory of the 2000 election and those pesky hanging chads, the
paper ballots not clearly punched through.

Outrage at the election chaos turned into a resolve to transform the electoral system.

DOUG CHAPIN: The Federal Government after the 2000 election embarked on a two-year debate on
election reform and at the end of that debate Congress enacted and the President signed the Help
America Vote Act of 2002.

That act represents a bargain between the Federal Government and state and local election
officials.

The Federal Government, for its part, committed to deliver roughly $4 billion over three years to
state and local election officials.

DOUG CHAPIN: What Americans will see around the country when they return to the polls will vary
from place to place.

JILL COLGAN: Doug Chapin is director of electionline.org, a non-partisan election reform analysis
group.

In his view, the Federal Government hasn't fulfilled its end of the bargain.

Only about half the money allocated has reached the states.

DOUG CHAPIN: I think election reform got lost in the shuffle.

I think once Congress enacted the Bill, it considered itself done with the issue for the time being
and knew that it had been controversial and I think there was to a certain extent a lack of follow
through.

I haven't seen any evidence that that was partisan in motivation or that there was any sort of ill
intent.

I just think the issue got lost in the crush of larger events like September 11, the war in Iraq
and others.

JILL COLGAN: The battle between President George W Bush and challenger Senator John Kerry is
looking just as tight as the 2000 race.

Both campaigns have mobilised their base, sending a massive influx of new voters to registration
offices like that in York.

JOHN SCOTT: We've processed a little over 20,000 new voter registration applications, not including
duplicates and changes, just new ones and since the end of August we've turned out almost 10,000
absentee ballot applications.

In a normal election we'd be turning out anywhere from 500 to 1,000 absentees, usually closer to
500.

JILL COLGAN: In the nearby county of Lehigh they've been swamped by absentee ballots.

Elsewhere, in Columbus, Ohio, officials are working around the clock, six days a week, processing
new voters.

Some may not be registered in time to be allowed to vote.

BILL FAITH, VOTER RIGHT ACTIVIST: We are on the brink of this historic opportunity to have so many
people more engaged in our democratic process this year than we've ever seen.

And yet we're going to show them that the first experience they get at trying to vote is they're
turned away.

JILL COLGAN: Five states, including Florida, are allowing early voting in a bid to ease the load on
November 2, but when voters in Broward County turned out to use Florida's new electronic voting
machines they found computer glitches.

Well before the November 2 election, allegations are flying of voter fraud.

In Nevada, a voter registration worker says she was told to throw away the forms filled out by
Democratic voters.

PATTIE PARKER, VOTER REGISTRATION WORKER: Just do whatever you want with it, dispose of it or bring
it back here and we'll dispose of it.

JILL COLGAN: In Colorado, the FBI is investigating the discovery of piles of registration forms
with bogus names.

One young voter is likely to face prosecution for trying to sell his vote on eBay - the starting
price, $25.

Both parties deny any wrong doing, but as in the past, Republicans accuse Democrats of trying to
stuff the ballot boxes, while Democrats accuse Republicans of trying to stop their voters getting
to the polls.

Both campaigns plan to have teams of lawyers and observers on hand to stop any electoral
shenanigans.

DOUG CHAPIN: We could have hundreds of thousands of observers, poll watchers, lawyers, law
students, people across the spectrum who will be watching the process.

Many of those people will be willing to challenge the process if a problem occurs.

For that reason I think the vast number of people who are helping to prevent another Florida, or
are hoping to prevent another Florida, may actually help to make it occur.

JILL COLGAN: There have been changes to the voting system that will cause fewer voters to be turned
away at the polls this time.

But a combination of new technology with a big voter turnout and confusion at the ballot box means
it's impossible to rule out another Florida.

KERRY O'BRIEN: Jill Colgan reporting from Washington.

Curtin closes on Clarke's NIDA reign

Curtain closes on Clarke's NIDA reign

Reporter: Kerry O'Brien

KERRY O'BRIEN: There are many reasons advanced as to why Australia has produced so many
international film stars in the past 20 years, but particularly the past decade.

Whatever distinctly Australian characteristics are contributing to the phenomenon led by Gibson and
Davis, but followed by Rush, Blanchett, Kidman and so many others, there is one obvious factor -
the growth of professional acting schools in that time.

The National Institute of Dramatic Art, or NIDA, in Sydney was the first of its kind and now
attracts thousands each year to audition for a mere 60 student positions, just 30 of them for
would-be actors.

And the man who has directed NIDA for a remarkable 35 years and nurtured many of our biggest names
in the industry is John Clarke, who at age 71 has decided it's time to call it quits.

I spoke with a reflective John Clark at NIDA late today.

KERRY O'BRIEN: John Clarke, you must have a lot of special memories to take away from here after 35
years.

There's so many talented people that you've helped nurture?

JOHN CLARKE, FORMER NIDA DIRECTOR: Yes I have, yes.

It's been a wonderful life and it's been a great privilege to work here and it's been a great joy
to see it grow.

And I guess the particular joy of being a teacher is the success that your graduates have, so every
time somebody does well, be it Mel or Judy Davis or Cate or Baz, you feel it's all been worthwhile.

KERRY O'BRIEN: NIDA, of course, is notoriously difficult to get into.

It looks for the best.

After all those auditions, year after year, did it ever get any easier for you to spot the best, or
potentially the best?

I imagine at times there must have been a very fine line between those who got in and some of those
who missed out?

JOHN CLARKE: Well it is, but what we've done, I think, over here over the recent years, is that
we've developed a way of working that doesn't just involve me but it involves a number of other
people who are very very good at it.

What you're looking for are not necessarily people who are good actors now, but are people who are
going to be good actors in about four or five years.

So we just have our methods of sort of detecting that and, quite often, people who give the most
stunning audition and they get in very easily and three years later they haven't changed a great
deal.

And, on the other hand, sometimes people just squeeze in with the most unlikely background and over
a three-year period they just grow and grow and just continue to surprise you and go out and make
great careers.

So it never gets any easier and it's just something that I guess is part of the the job here and
just, it's intuitive as much as it is intellectual.

KERRY O'BRIEN: You are quoted somewhere as saying you can tell in 10 seconds when someone gets on a
stage, and I thought it couldn't possibly be that easy?

JOHN CLARKE: Well, very occasionally somebody walks on stage and they start talking or saying
something and instantly you want to be a part of their lives and you're really interested in what
they're saying and you're feeling with them and you think, "Yeah, that's pretty good."

But then auditioning for NIDA, we might ask them to do some other things and suddenly it all begins
to dissipate, whereas somebody who may just squeeze into a second audition suddenly comes back and
you think, "My God, this is person is wonderful."

It's a very tricky business and it certainly doesn't get any easier.

KERRY O'BRIEN: It sounded like Judy Davis was a special.

What was it?

JOHN CLARKE: There was an unusual beauty about her.

There was an incredible passion about her.

There was a passion for the work, there was a political sensibility there and somebody really
wanted to change the world and somebody for whom acting wasn't just a matter of showing off and
theatre was not just a matter of entertaining people, but doing something to improve the condition
of mankind.

And I guess that's what all art strives for and when you see that in somebody who's got a great
personality, somebody who's got a rich voice and somebody who expresses themselves physically,
you've got potentially a good actor.

KERRY O'BRIEN: By comparison, you've said you can't remember Mel Gibson's audition, but he
certainly grew over the three years and you certainly remember his talent unfolding, don't you?

JOHN CLARKE: I remember performances Mel gave at NIDA very vividly.

I don't remember his auditions.

I mean, he played a number of leading roles.

Actually he did Romeo and Juliet with Judy Davis in a very good production.

But I also remember him playing a minor role in a play called the The Hostage, in which he played
an Irish guard with an IQ of about minus 50 and one eyebrow and nothing between here and here.

And he had about three lines and he was absolutely irresistible.

The only thing I had to say to him was that if you're standing up the back with your gun and two
other actors are down the front playing a key scene, it's probably better not to blow your nose and
then examine the contents of your handkerchief.

He took that on board.

But he's a great comedian, and that's only come out recently.

I admire Mel more than anybody else, particularly over the Passion of the Christ because here he
was, you know, somebody with courage and a belief and he put his own money into a film where nobody
else would, and it became a huge commercial success and it created an immense amount of
controversy.

And I believe that's one of the functions of theatre and film.

KERRY O'BRIEN: What is it like watching a talent like Cate Blanchett come to you as a raw student
and blossom?

JOHN CLARKE: I remember her as doing a fantastic Roslyn in As You Like It.

It was one of the best Shakespearian performances I've ever seen.

I remember her as a bit of a larrikin and somebody who was a very gutsy and great girl to work with
and somebody who worked very hard and somebody who took it very, very seriously and was determined
to make good use of the place.

KERRY O'BRIEN: You've nominated courage as one distinguishing characteristic of those very good
Australian actors of today, the courage to take risks, why do you think that is?

JOHN CLARKE: I think it's part of our character too.

If you go into the acting profession in England you have a weight of centuries of tradition sitting
on your back and it's not easy to change.

We encourage, I think at NIDA, we say to people here, "Look get up and make a fool of yourself,
don't be frightened of failing, but if you are going to fail, fail gloriously, don't muck about, go
for it."

KERRY O'BRIEN: What is there left in the theatre that you want to do?

JOHN CLARKE: I'm going direct a play in India, Shakespeare, with the National School of Drama
there, which I'm very close to.

Then take a break and then come back here and see what's on offer.

KERRY O'BRIEN: Thirty-five years is a very long time to pour into one thing.

I know it was a multistranded thing but, nonetheless, one focus.

Can you remember what thoughts, what emotions, passed through your mind as that last performance on
Saturday night was closing, as it ended, as the curtain came down.

JOHN CLARKE: You walk out on stage to take a curtain call and it's hard to see out because there
are lights in your eyes.

I always remember about five minutes of very loud cheering and I think people were standing up and
that was a pretty special occasion.

It was also nice to have so many graduates in the audience and to be able to meet them afterwards
and to have so many people believe in some way or other that we've managed to help them or NIDA's
managed to help them and that's what I guess being an educator is all about.

KERRY O'BRIEN: John Clarke, thanks for talking with us.

JOHN CLARKE: It's been a pleasure, Kerry.

Supertext Captions by the Australian Caption Centre. www.auscap.com.au