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Police seek death penalty for 'Bali nine'

Police seek death penalty for 'Bali nine'

Reporter: Jonathan Harley

KERRY O'BRIEN: Facing the tough justice of Indonesia, the nine young Australians now in custody in
Bali for alleged drug smuggling are no longer in any doubt about where they stand with authorities
there. Police made clear today in Indonesia that they will seek the firing squad for all nine. Ever
since their arrest more than a week ago, the 'Bali nine' have been under intense police pressure
and media scrutiny, but many questions remain. Who was the mastermind of the plot to smuggle heroin
into Australia? And were the alleged couriers really victims of criminal threats? While Australian
Federal Police have raided the Sydney home of the man suspected of leading the syndicate, it's now
been revealed that at least four of the accused had travelled to Bali several times in the recent
past. Shortly I'll be talking with Australian Justice Minister Senator Chris Ellison about the
latest developments. But first, this report from Jonathan Harley.

JONATHAN HARLEY: Day after day, for a week and a half, it's been a stark showcase of the
differences between Indonesia's justice system and the one the Bali nine may have faced at home.
Paraded before the media, snatched grabs of young Australians wrestling with their fate, imagined
and real. This is the grey zone between arrest and charge and it can play out for up to 70 days and
feature moments of high drama - as it did today, with police calling for the death penalty for each
member of this operation. Not just the so-called mules, but all nine.

BAMBANG SUGIARTO, CHIEF DRUGS DETECTIVE: Yes, all will get the death penalty. They are the
exporters and the coordinators. It is organised.

DR SANDY GORDON, FORMER HEAD OF INTELLIGENCE, AFP: In terms of fairness, if you mean yes, were they
couriering drugs, I think, in that sense, it will be a fair trial as to their guilt. As to the
sentences, they may not necessarily be the sort of sentences that people in that category would
receive here in Australia. So in that sense, I think it could be traumatic. I'm not saying that
they would necessarily get the death penalty, but even life in prison would be seen as an extremely
harsh penalty, given their apparent, or some of them, their apparent status as underlings in this
whole venture.

JONATHAN HARLEY: Without a jury to sway, it's open slather. Daily interrogation sessions, even
defence lawyers have been openly implicating their clients.

ANDREW CHAN: Can you please get the cameras away, please!

JONATHAN HARLEY: It's justice Bali style and, along with the stark punishment looming in front of
these Australians, it's clearly having a profound effect on some of them. In Australia the
investigation is, by contrast, clinical and quiet. These are pictures of an overnight raid on the
Sydney home of Myuran Sukumaran variously categorised as the kingpin or the 2IC in the alleged
smuggling hierarchy. Andrew Chan is the other, early on dubbed the godfather.


JONATHAN HARLEY: People do have double lives, though, don't they?

DAVID SOPER: Well, if we're honest with ourselves, we all do.

DR SANDY GORDON: It's really hard to say if there's a bigger middle man but I would suspect there
probably is.

JONATHAN HARLEY: Dr Sandy Gordon ran intelligence for the Australian Federal Police in the late

DR SANDY GORDON: There's obviously the people bringing heroin, perhaps in quite large quantities,
into Indonesia from wherever it came, probably South-East Asia, but not necessarily so. And then
there's the people taking delivery and distributing back in Australia. Now, the people that were
missed in this case under this surveillance were people who were delivering the heroin in bulk to
this particular group of people in Bali. And so that's a great shame, that that particular delivery
was missed. One would have hoped that it hadn't been missed, but you can see that it might be
missed when there's cross-cultural factors in the surveillance.

JONATHAN HARLEY: The Indonesian bust and its sequel in the holding cells and interrogation rooms of
Bali's police headquarters has been big on spectacle but light on hard detail. Today, a trickle of
additional facts as the Indonesians have them - that at least four of the nine aren't newcomers to
Bali. The 7:30 Report has learned the dates of their visits. Andrew Chan went to Bali in August,
October and again in December of last year. So too, Renae Lawrence, who travelled to Bali in
October and December 2004. The youngest, Matthew Norman, made a visit in December, although Bali
police claim to be aware of who other previous visits. Myuran Sukumaran, the target of last night's
Australian raid, has allegedly visited Bali twice. Three of them, except Matthew Norman, are
alleged to have used false passports.

DR SANDY GORDON: Well, if it's proven that on those trips they were in fact couriering drugs, yes,
I think it puts a somewhat different complexion on the operations of this particular syndicate, the
size of it, its ability to survive over some time and so on. I mean, if this is true, that they
were acting as couriers - and we actually don't know that of course at this stage - then I think we
have to say, yes, this syndicate has had more legs than we would have suspected and they're not
necessarily naive amateurs.

JONATHAN HARLEY: But where did the leaders of this doomed enterprise source the contraband they're
accused of trafficking? The 7:30 Report has learnt the trail points to a group of west Africans,
probably Nigerians. Indonesia has been a staging point used by west African traffickers, a mini hub
historically for their Afghan heroin. The heroin allegedly carried by the mules in this operation
is thought to be from Burma or northern Thailand.

DR SANDY GORDON: It's similar to a west African operation as we saw them shipping heroin out of,
say, Pakistan. This was a classic - the 'scatter gun', as they call it, modus operandi - was a
classic west African modus operandi. In fact, the jails in Britain started to fill up with west
African mules. Now, the point about the way the west Africans operated this sort of operation was
that there was always a cut-off between the mule and the people doing the organising. So the
organisers assessed that even if only half of the heroin got through, they'd still make a profit
and that they'd never get identified by the law because of this cut-off. So that's what, you know,
what makes me think that probably there's still someone else behind this operation.

JONATHAN HARLEY: Few know as well as Warren Fellows what the Bali nine will be going through.

WARREN FELLOWS: They'd be terrified, Jonathan. There's no way you can express the feeling of
someone taking your life away.

JONATHAN HARLEY: Warren Fellows was arrested in 1978 in Bangkok, and convicted for possession of
8.5 kilos of heroin, along with Australians William Sinclair and Paul Haywood. He served 12 years
of a 33-year sentence in Thailand's most notorious prisons before receiving a royal pardon in 1989.
His memoir offers a harrowing warning to anyone considering drug trafficking, and a window into the
mental and physical strain facing the Bali nine.

WARREN FELLOWS: You have no strength. Um, then comes the mental, um, replay in your head, right,
you replay everything back, every step I made, what did I do wrong, blah, blah, blah, if I would
have done this, I would've done that.

JONATHAN HARLEY: But for all the empathy Warren Fellows feels for the nine Australian detainees,
he's sceptical about the claims that they were tricked or forced into it.

WARREN FELLOWS: They were saying they didn't know about it on the way up.

JONATHAN HARLEY: Do you believe them?

WARREN FELLOWS: No, they had to have known about it, Jonathan. No one's gonna come up to you and
say I'm gonna give you 10 grand, go and have a holiday, you know.

DAVID SOPER: Well, I can't believe for the life of me that he'll be found guilty.

JONATHAN HARLEY: As the squalid realities of incarceration begin to dawn on the Bali nine, so too
their families and friends also try to reconcile the prisoners with the people they knew. For David
Soper, the young Andrew Chan he used to take on holidays with his sons bears no resemblance to the
alleged godfather he reads about in the papers.

DAVID SOPER: You know, he's no godfather and he's never had a lot of money. He's been quite happy
with his lot in life. I'll always have some hope, but I'm shattered.

JONATHAN HARLEY: For a time, it seemed only the mules in this operation would face the ultimate
penalty. Today they're all staring at at real prospect of execution and that presents the
Australian Government with a delicate challenge - the pursuit of clemency for nine people delivered
to the Indonesians by the Australian Federal Police.

KERRY O'BRIEN: That report from Jonathan Harley.

Ellison defends handling of Bali heroin case

Ellison defends handling of Bali heroin case

Reporter: Kerry O'Brien

KERRY O'BRIEN: Attorney-General Philip Ruddock and Justice Minister Senator Chris Ellison are both
engaged in negotiations to expedite a prisoner exchange treaty between Australia and Indonesia.
That obviously can't include prisoners sentenced to death. Senator Ellison joins me now from Perth.
Chris Ellison, first the news today that four of the Bali nine had made previous trips to
Indonesia, quite recently - three trips between August and December last year in the case of Chan,
two previous trips by Lawrence in October and December. When did Australian police first become
aware of those previous trips?

SENATOR CHRIS ELLISON, JUSTICE MINISTER: Well, I'm not going to go into the detail of when the
Australian Federal Police first knew of certain aspects of this case, but what I can say is the
movement of these people has been under investigation, and there's been no secret in relation to

KERRY O'BRIEN: But the implication by Indonesian police is that at least some of these previous
trips may have been drug trips. Did the AFP have any knowledge of these prior trips before they
informed Indonesian police of their suspicions?

SENATOR CHRIS ELLISON: The Australian Federal Police, as I understand it, gained intelligence on
this matter some 10 or 11 weeks ago. As a result of that, gathered further intelligence and then
passed it on to the Indonesian police. Now, I'm not going to go into the operational aspects of
this, Kerry. It would be inappropriate to do so. But the Australian Federal Police conducted a
routine investigation as you would expect them to do, into what involves a very serious situation,
where there are allegations involving a large amount of heroin.

KERRY O'BRIEN: You've heard in Jonathan Harley's story the discussion about the possible western
African connection. Are you concerned in all this that although police here suspect that the heroin
suppliers may have been of west African origin, the opportunity to nail the suppliers seems to have

SENATOR CHRIS ELLISON: The AFP haven't said anything about where they think this drug may have come
from. In fact, the commissioner of the Australian Federal Police, Mick Keelty, has said that the
AFP are investigating this matter and will continue to do so and that they are serious in this
investigation to find out who's behind it and any Mr Bigs who are involved in it.

KERRY O'BRIEN: But obviously the best chance of doing that is before these ones are apprehended, is
it not?

SENATOR CHRIS ELLISON: Well, it depends upon the circumstances. I've seen many investigations
carried out by the Australian Federal Police over the time that I've been minister and I can tell
you, not one set of circumstances is the same, and for everyone to think that there's a script that
you stick to, well, that's entirely wrong.

KERRY O'BRIEN: Except that the investigation now is being conducted by - I mean these prisoners are
in the hands of the Indonesians rather than the Australians?

SENATOR CHRIS ELLISON: Well the allegation is that this amount of heroin, in excess of 8kg, a large
amount of heroin, was found in Indonesia. Now, it's quite appropriate that Indonesian police carry
out an investigation in relation to an alleged crime on Indonesian soil.

KERRY O'BRIEN: I know that you've defended the AFP decision to assist the Indonesians to arrest the
nine there, rather than have them face Australian justice. But is there also a strategy at work
here to have these nine face the tough justice of Indonesia, including the prospect, for all nine
of them, of a firing squad, to serve as an example, a warning to others who, other potential
Australian mules operating in the region?

SENATOR CHRIS ELLISON: The Australian police carry out their duties, which they do very well, on an
operational basis. And it depends on the circumstances that they're faced with. Now, if they work
with law enforcement in the region, they of course have to respect that they're dealing with
foreign jurisdictions. We can't dictate to law enforcement in the region as to how things will be
done, because if we do, all that cooperation that we get will vanish and that includes counter
terrorism. I've made it very clear to my counterparts, many of whom I met on the weekend in Bangkok
at the United Nations Congress on Organised and Transnational Crime that it will be business as
usual. We will not detract in any way from the job we're doing in fighting illicit drugs, organised
crime and people trafficking and smuggling.

KERRY O'BRIEN: But do you say that there is absolutely no political strategy at work here as part
of this process to have these nine serve as an example to other potential Australian mules?

SENATOR CHRIS ELLISON: The government doesn't involve itself in what is an operational matter. We
leave that to the police, who are extremely well qualified, to make these judgments, and they do so
on an operational basis, and we trust them completely in their judgment in that regard, Kerry. The
Australian Federal Police has done a fantastic job in interdicting drugs from coming into this
country and so do the Customs service and other law enforcement agencies.

KERRY O'BRIEN: 'The Bulletin' magazine today quotes you as having said that the reason the AFP
didn't want to arrest the nine in Australia was due to health concerns that if they decided to use
the common method of swallowing heroin in condoms, the condoms might rupture and kill the
trafficker. Did you say that? Was that a consideration by the AFP?

SENATOR CHRIS ELLISON: I never said that and my office has been in touch with 'The Bulletin' today
to have that corrected. I never said that. What I have said is that I would not comment on
operational matters. That was a judgment which was made by the Australian Federal Police working
with the Indonesian police. At the end of the day, this investigation is being conducted in the
Indonesian jurisdiction. The crime is alleged to have occurred on Indonesian soil and we have to
respect that. Now...

KERRY O'BRIEN: But sorry, but are you also saying that that was not a consideration for the AFP,
the issue of traffickers possibly swallowing condoms of heroin and dying?

SENATOR CHRIS ELLISON: You asked me did I say that? I didn't, and can I say that in relation to the
considerations of this operation, that's a matter for the Australian Federal Police and I have not
ventured comment as to why they made decisions at certain points in this investigation.

KERRY O'BRIEN: Okay. If any of these nine do get the death penalty, will you, on behalf of - will
the Australian Government argue for clemency from Indonesia?

SENATOR CHRIS ELLISON: The Australian Government, as previous Australian Governments of all
persuasions have done, will go in to bat to avoid the death penalty being carried out in relation
to any Australian citizen. There's an example recently in Singapore, Mr Nyuyen, where the Prime
Minister involved himself. I spoke about that matter in Bangkok to my counterpart from Singapore.
We've done it in relation to Schapelle Corby and we will continue to do it in relation to any
Australian citizen that might face the death penalty.

KERRY O'BRIEN: You've tried to expedite a prisoner exchange agreement between Australia and
Indonesia which has been in train for some time now. Would you regard these nine as suitable for
exchange back to Australia if they do end up with long prison sentences in Indonesia?

SENATOR CHRIS ELLISON: Well, for a prisoner transfer to occur, you have to have the agreement of
the prisoner, the foreign government, the Australian Government and the State and Territory
government where the prisoner is situated where they would serve their sentence. So really, for me
to pre-empt what may or may not happen down the track is really inappropriate, but can I say this:
we are intent on negotiating an agreement with Indonesia for prisoner transfer. We've been in
discussions with them, our officials have, since July last year, and we will do everything we can
to expedite that.

KERRY O'BRIEN: It seems obvious that you do regard Schapelle Corby as an acceptable case for
exchange back to an Australian prison if she's found guilty. That is so, isn't it?

SENATOR CHRIS ELLISON: We haven't pre-empted our decision in the Schapelle Corby case. It depends
upon the application that's made and that it fits within the terms of the agreement that we've
reached with the country concerned. Now, we've negotiated an agreement with Thailand and we've got
the Council of Europe which we belong to, that treaty. It all depends on the agreement you reach
with the country concerned.

KERRY O'BRIEN: But the Attorney-General, Mr Ruddock, has already said that since the Corby case, he
now regards these negotiations as urgent and has told the Indonesian government that. Now that
would clearly seem to indicate that that's your intent with regard to the Corby case. SENATOR CHRIS
ELLISON: Well, we certainly want the agreement moved along, there's no question about that and
we've been in discussions since July last year.

KERRY O'BRIEN: But you want it moved along more so than you did before Corby was arrested.

SENATOR CHRIS ELLISON: We've got an environment now where the number of Australian prisoners,
people detained in Indonesia, has increased and I stress the nine and Schapelle Corby have not been
found guilty. But certainly, it's a policy of this government to enter into transfer of prisoner
agreements, and we've been putting that into effect, and we'll continue to do so. Indonesia, after
all, is a country with whom we have a close relationship across a broad range of matters, and law
enforcement is one of them.

KERRY O'BRIEN: But there's a potentially awkward moment coming up for the Australian Government,
isn't there, in the Corby case which may well turn out to be one where Australia ends up
incarcerating a woman in this country for life that the Australian Government - the Australian
Government doing that in the knowledge that many, many Australians regard her as innocent?

SENATOR CHRIS ELLISON: Well, Kerry, we've had in Australia situations where people have been
sentenced to terms of imprisonment where the members of the public have thought that person was not
guilty, and it is a situation where if we're to engage in transfer of prisoners, we have to respect
the laws of the other country concerned. Otherwise you won't get the transfer of prisoners
occurring, and that's part of the agreement.

Hezbollah rejects call to disarm

Hezbollah rejects call to disarm

Reporter: Mark Willacy

KERRY O'BRIEN: It's been a historic day for Lebanon and its people. Under intense international
pressure and mass protests after the February assassination of former Lebanese Prime Minister Rafiq
Hariri, Syria has fallen into line with a UN resolution to withdraw the last of its troops after
nearly 30 years of occupation. Even so, Lebanon faces an unstable political future with elections
due at the end of May. The chief threat to security is the country's only private army, Hezbollah,
which has been a loyal supporter of Syria and sworn enemy of Israel. UN Resolution 1559, with US
and Israeli backing, calls on Hezbollah to disarm. But the militant group, blacklisted by the US
and Australia as a terrorist group, enjoys solid grassroots support and says it will never give up
its vast arsenal of weapons. In fact, Hezbollah is developing new and more sophisticated weapons
with which to confront Israel. Middle East correspondent Mark Willacy reports from southern

MARK WILLACY: Across a thin strip of no-man's land between Israel and Lebanon, two sworn enemies
eye each other warily from their bunkers. The only thing keeping Israel and Hezbollah apart is the
United Nations peacekeeping force. But if President Bush and the UN Security Council get their way,
Hezbollah's battle-hardened militia could soon be stripped of its arms.

GEORGE W BUSH, US PRESIDENT: We view Hezbollah as a terrorist organisation and I would hope that
Hezbollah would prove that they're not by laying down arms and not threatening peace.

TIMUR GOKSEL, FMR UN PEACEKEEPER: Any attempt by force to disarm Hezbollah now will bring about the
worst civil war that we have ever seen in the annals of Lebanon and we have seen real bad ones MARK
WILLACY: Hezbollah is Lebanon's only private militia. Translated as "the party of God", Hezbollah
was conceived by Shi'ite clerics in 1982 to resist Israeli troops who had stormed into Lebanon to
drive out Palestinian militants based there. Funded and armed by Iran, Hezbollah's young fighters
successfully employed hit-and-run guerilla attacks and suicide bombings against the Israelis. But
Israelis weren't the sole target. In 1983, the finger of blame was pointed at Hezbollah for the
Beirut bombings of the US Embassy and military barracks which killed 241 US marines and 56 French
soldiers. Throughout the rest of the 1980s, the group was behind a spate of airline hijackings and
kidnappings in the Middle East, resulting in both the United States and Australia black listing
Hezbollah as a terrorist organisation. Despite its international reputation, however, Hezbollah did
win admirers. Large sectors of the Lebanese community applauded its role in forcing Israel to
withdraw from Lebanon five years ago.

WALID JUMBLATT, LEBANESE DRUZE LEADER: Hezbollah is one of the pillars of independence of Lebanon.
Hezbollah did a good job getting the Israelis out, liberating the south of Lebanon.

MARK WILLACY: But after the assassination of former Prime Minister Rafiq Hariri in February, there
are question marks over Hezbollah's militant role. Under United Nations Security Council resolution
1559, Hezbollah must be disarmed - a move backed by some opposition members inside Lebanese

GIBRAN TUENI, CHRISTIAN OPPOSITION MP: We cannot allow any political party to become a militia,
armed militia, under any pretext. They're acting like a government within the government, a state
within the state.

MARK WILLACY: Hezbollah was the only militia allowed to keep its arms after Lebanon's brutal
15-year civil war. It then used those weapons to humiliate Israel, pushing the region's most
powerful army back over this border and out of southern Lebanon. Hezbollah says it will never
surrender those weapons while Israel remains a threat. But the most senior Shi'ite cleric in
Lebanon and the man widely described as Hezbollah's spiritual leader, Grand Ayatollah Mohammad
Hussein Fadlallah, says without its military muscle, the group would not be able to protect the
impoverished people of southern Lebanon.

of Hezbollah and its weapons which has prevented Israel from making new invasions of Lebanon.
That's why we always have to be vigilant and cautious.

MARK WILLACY: Hezbollah's supporters point out that the group isn't just a well-armed militia. It
has 12 members of parliament and a massive social services network. At this school in southern
Lebanon, these year 8 students are learning English. This school was built by Hezbollah, and the
group pays for the education of most of these children from poor Shi'ite families.

ZAINAB REDA, TEACHER: People think it's like military, it's like bad, it's this and that, but no,
they give a lot of money, they help people. It's really nice. It's really good.

MARK WILLACY: As well as schools, Hezbollah runs hospitals clinics throughout southern Lebanon.

DR MOHAMMAD SCHOMAN, MEDICAL DIRECTOR: Just for a medical check-up by a doctor in Beirut sometimes,
it reaches about $50, just a check-up like this by a doctor. Here, you pay for - it's paid for
about $5, $7, like this.

MARK WILLACY: That's because Hezbollah helps out?

DR MOHAMMAD SCHOMAN: Yes, yes. MARK WILLACY: However, opposition MP Gibran Tueni says if Hezbollah
is is serious about protecting the poor it should focus on its social programs an disband its
guerilla forces.

GIBRAN TUENI: What we're doing now through Hezbollah is illegal. We do not want Lebanon to be in an
illegal position internationally.

MARK WILLACY: Rather than disarms, Hezbollah is building more sophisticated weapons to confront
Israel with. This month it released video of of a pilotless drone aircraft which it flew over
Israel. Some fear it could be eventually armed with chemical weapons supplied by Iran or Syria.

ABDULLAH KASSIR, HEZBOLLAH MP: We first flew a drone a few months ago, but it only flew for a few
minutes. Our latest flight was much more successful. It flew over Israel all the way to Haifa and
it came back over the sea. The Israeli military missed it. This is a victory not only for
Hezbollah, but also for Lebanon as a whole. From weakness, we are creating strength.

MARK WILLACY: Walid Jumblatt is the leader of Lebanon's most powerful Druze clan and a member of
the country's opposition. He fears that if the party of God is pushed, it could respond with force,
planting the seeds of another Lebanese civil war.

WALID JUMBLATT: We might say that well the weapons of Hezbollah are necessary to defend Lebanon,
included in the Lebanese army, but we don't accept and we will not accept the American agenda about
1559 disarming Hezbollah.

MARK WILLACY: The party of God has built its success on humiliating the Middle East's most
formidable army. Having pushed Israel back over the border, Hezbollah says it must keep its weapons
to ensure its arch enemy never comes back. And it's prepared to stare down Israel, the UN and the
United States to hold onto its arsenal.

KERRY O'BRIEN: Nonetheless, hope for Lebanon ahead.