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DRAFT

MINISTER FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS HON ALEXANDER MR DOWNER, MP

TRANSCRIPTION: PROOF COPY E & OE

DATE: 9 March 2006

TITLE: Interview with Leon Byner, 5AA

LEON BYNER: Mr Downer, nice to see you and thanks for joining us today.

MR DOWNER: It’s a great pleasure.

BYNER: Now let’s start with what we first mentioned in the opening, and that is your criticism of the state government. Now I suppose in a sense there will be those that will say ‘well he’s a Federal Lib supporting a State Lib’.

DOWNER: Well I try to be objective - as objective about this as I can - when I look at the situation in South Australia - first of all, in the last quarter of last year not only was South Australia the slowest growing state in Australia, but business investment had actually declined. And I can’t help but worry about that - I was born a South Australian, I am a South Australian and I’m proud of my state - I love my home - but having said that, my state is doing worse than other states and look, it’s a real sense of deja vous here - I reckon I have seen all of this before. I remember when John Bannan was the premier and Mike Rann was of course his senior staffer and we were constantly assured - look, don’t worry about the bad news, don’t worry about the bad statistics - South Australia is just cruising along - and we know what happened. Now we’re not going to have a bank crash in South Australia, of course, but what I am very worried about is the way business investment is declining in the state and as I said last Friday, if it wasn’t for the federal projects, South Australia would be in recession.

BYNER: They’re strong words - remember that we’ve got employment growth at record levels, unemployment levels are the best in thirty years - at 5%, which, since we’ve been keeping the {inaudible}- and I have a problem with the way we collect statistics on unemployment simply because an hour of work means that you’re not unemployed - you can be underemployed, but you’re not unemployed so therefore you’re not counted - so I suspect

that they hide and belie what another reality might be. But never-the-less, we are being told, and we spoke to a {inaudible} Professor Nick Blandy - have all said - ‘look, we’re doing ok, ok - we’re not the best performing state, but we’re certainly not the worst’.

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DOWNER: We are the worst performing state according to the latest statistics, and when I look at the future - see what concerns me is that business investment has been declining here...

BYNER: But to what would you attribute that Alex?

DOWNER: Well look - it’s a sense of nothing very much happening here except for a handful of federal projects. There’s a sense in South Australia that you can’t point to anything exciting or new happening beyond the air warfare destroyer, the moving of the mechanised brigade from the Third Royal Australian Regiment through Edinburgh - you’ve got those kinds of projects, but over and above that you just get a sense of nothing happening - where you go to other parts of Australia and there are exciting, dynamic things happening. For example, if you look in the area of infrastructure here in South Australia - my view is that despite the fact that the State government now gets two billion - two thousand million dollars more revenue now than it got two years ago - but our infrastructure in South Australia - for which the State government is responsible is degrading. You know, there’s a debate now - the Liberals say they’re going to gradually upgrade the Victor Harbour road - Victor Harbour’s in my electorate - so I’m very pleased to hear that, but generally speaking in this State I think that our roads, the quality of our infrastructure overall, is relatively poor.

BYNER: But, you talk about roads and yet, if you speak to some of the road authorities that often point their advocacy point of view nationally, they’ll tell you that our share of federal funding for roads is not what it should be.

DOWNER: Well that’s of course partly a function of the roads system of South Australia as compared to the roads system of different states - that’s a complicated story and that’s been reviewed and in the so called Roads to Recovery Programme which the federal government introduced, we’ve increased South Australia’s share of that funding, so South Australia’s now increasingly doing better.

BYNER: But the Government would argue though - to be fair because you’re here today and you’re blowing the trumpet of the Liberals and people would understand that - but, Kevin Foley was in the studio yesterday with Rob Lucas and he pointed to the (Port River) Bridge, with which there’s a new bridge being built which is going to open - which is going to cost a lot of money..

DOWNER: …. sending the tram lines broke. I mean what a great benefit that’s going to be compared to upgrading our roads and without extending our tram line…

BYNER: Ok, what about the major development of the Queen Elizabeth Hospital for example which is going to go into the hundreds of millions..

DOWNER: Well you can’t say that nothing is happening in South Australia - of course in every part, in every corner of Australia - in Launceston and in Cairns and in Perth - there are things happening. It’s just the relative position of South Australia is poor - it being the most poorly performing economy in the last quarter of last year. But as I say, it’s not just what the Government is doing - though it is partially what the government is and isn’t doing; it’s what

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the private sector is doing. I mean, the Government should be doing something - the State Government is getting two billion dollars a year more revenue. Now what are we getting for that two billion dollars - we’re not getting very much for it - but over and above that - you

have an environment where private sector investment has actually declined in the last quarter. Private sector investment is constant obviously to driving the economy. Now if the private sector doesn’t find South Australia particularly attractive to investors, well that’s something the state government has to focus on and I don’t think they have.

BYNER: If you’re right in saying that were it not for the federal projects we would be in recession, why haven’t there been a lot of federal comments from the Prime Minister, and indeed Nick Minchin, and our other South Australian representatives who all have senior positions in the Federal Parliament. If things are as negative as you paint then, then why, this presumably has been discussed with your colleagues - yet you’re the only one who’s really said much publicly about it.

DOWNER: Well I’m the one who’s doing the talking on it - I’m the senior South Australian Liberal - Federal Liberal - so not surprisingly I’m the one who does a lot of the talking. I mean, the Prime Minister came here to support the Kerin campaign a couple of weeks ago, but he’s in India, so it’s not the - he’s not just focussing on the state election. It’s not the Prime Minister’s job to get involved in all the state elections campaigns, but I am a South Australian so being a South Australian Liberal I am focussing on it….

BRYNER: What’s should the Government be doing to encourage more investment from the Private Sector?

DOWNER: Well I think what some of the sort of things that Rob Kerin and his team are talking about are important - there are two sides to that - one of them is to upgrade our infrastructure in South Australia - I certainly think there needs to be more focus on the what we’ve constructed already - need to focus on roads and other forms of infrastructure in the

state. Secondly, South Australians have been pretty heavily - of course our taxes are partly federal taxes but the state taxes have been pretty heavy, and I’m glad to learn that the State Liberals are going to announce the tax cuts on Sunday so we look forward to hearing what they have to say on that - I’m not obviously going to foreshadow that….

BYRNE: What sort of tax cuts?

DOWNER: Well they’ll be talking about that when the time comes - that’s a matter for Rob Kerin.

BYRNE: So you’re practically announcing tax cuts?

DOWNER: Well - they’ve been saying that themselves this morning, Rob Lucas has been saying that - but I’m just making the point that they are committed to reducing the burden…

BYRNE: A lot of people though, are going to be concerned that the fact that the Liberals are going to - if you like - 4000 public service jobs will either go by normal attrition - that is retirement and not being replaced - or by going to people of various departments and saying

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would you like a voluntary separation package. A lot of people are concerned about this because the public servants association have ads on television now which will strike a chord with people now, saying, ‘listen, we want services - they’re already not what we think they should be - so, what are we talking about getting rid of people who actually have a role to play in the services that we require’…

DOWNER: Well, you can ask the listeners what they think, but I think I’m right in saying, I stand to be corrected and there have been another eight thousand public servant jobs created by the Rann government over the last four years. What the state liberals is saying is look -

there’s a trade off here - if you’re just going to continue to grow the public service its costing money, it’s not for free that you grow the public service and the cost is higher taxes than otherwise would be the case. Now what the state liberals are saying is look, we will - essentially through natural attrition - we will see the size of the public service decline by 4000, but of course by doing that they’re able to reduce taxes, and to stimulate investment in the private sector. So I would have thought it made very good sense - I mean that exact figure of 4000 is of course a matter for the state parliamentary party - I’m not sure now they came to that figure. But let me make this other point - because you raised a good point about the public service association - here you have the unions, which essentially run the Labor Party - I mean, we know all about factions in the Labor Party - because you’re seeing it federally. Those factions by the way exist at the state level - the state Labor Party isn’t something separate from the federal Labor Party - they’re both part of the same organisation. The Public Service Association and the unions more generally, completely run the Labor Party - there’s absolutely no doubt about that. Now people like Julia Gillard and Simon Crean are saying look we’ve got to break down these factional warlords running the Labor Party - but here in South Australia factional warlords - and that’s illustrated by the Public Service Association - factional warlords are running the Labor Party, are dictating to Mr Rann and to his cabinet what he should be doing.

BYNER: The Liberals would argue they don’t have factions - what do they have - personalities?

DOWNER: Oh look, of course we certainly {inaudible} don’t have in the liberal party {inaudible} warlord...

BYRNE {inaudible} a more conservative, or were there others that were...

DOWNER: {inaudible} on the issue - now I’m a very policy focussed person if you like - or issue focussed person…

BYRNE: We’re talking with Alexander Downer, the Foreign Minister, if you have a question, 8223 0000. Now, I just want to go onto a couple of thing that I think are very important. As you know, the fate of the Bali nine has been discussed a lot across Australia and in the media and there are still those who say that Australia has been terribly unfair to those people who did commit very serious offences and even in Australia where if judged for doing so would probably find themselves behind bars for many years because trafficking five kilo’s of heroin in any jurisdiction is going to get a relatively harsh penalty. Although in South Australia, I have to say, of something like 4000 cases in the magistrates court, very few of those people

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found guilty of trafficking went to jail. But five kilo’s of heroin is very serious. What do you say to those people who say that by cooperating with countries like Indonesia, who do have - compared to our laws - a much more draconian system, that’s the deal that we would have been far better, and far more worthy of our own citizenship by allowing those people to get on the aircraft and then arrested in Sydney?

DOWNER: Well first of all we wouldn’t necessarily have been able to do that, and secondly, I don’t have any sympathy for them excepting to say that for those two who have been sentenced to death will plead from clemency. And I’ll be honest with you - I know some of your listeners will think I should harsh here - but the reason I don’t have any sympathy for the Bali nine is that these people went and - went to Bali - tried to traffic heroin back into our countries with their eyes wide open - they knew exactly what they were doing - they know exactly what the penalties in Asia are - they thought they’d take the risk and what of the

consequences for our young people here in South Australia or more broadly in Australia if those drugs come into our….

BYNRER: I spoke to the drug thief - run by a lady Anne{inaudible}- which you would know - because most of what she does is funded federally through the Prime Ministerial advocacy and that is to try and get people off drugs by abstinence not by harm minimization. But you seem to; bare with me, easily half a million kids plus in five kilo’s of heroin. So, you…

DOWNER:.. I don’t know if that figure’s right, but the figures - you know more about it than I do, but - that figure tells the whole story. I mean, be honest with you - we are tough on drugs, we are - the Federal Government - at the state level I think some of the laws are a bit slack - but at the federal level we are very tough on drugs. We believe that if we allow drugs to be spread through our community that’s going to kill people and if it doesn’t kill them, destroy young lives. And we owe it to the community to try to stop these drugs coming into Australia.

BYRNE: Alexander Downer at twenty five past nine on 5AA, Jackie good morning.

JACKIE - FEMALE TALKBACK CALLER: Good morning, Leon. How are you, Mr Downer?

DOWNER: I’m well, thanks, Jackie.

JACKIE: Look, I just happened to catch a few things you were saying, and I fully agree. We left this state back in about ’86, and we came back to this state three years ago. And, truly, nothing much has changed. Some of the traffic lights look like they’re from Methuselah’s time. You’ve got - the roads are absolutely disgraceful, and the infrastructure and now - we lived in two other states in that time in Australia - and they are just leaps and bounds ahead.

And I know that I love it here. I truly love Adelaide. And it’s just a shame that we have had just a poor managed government, it seems to be. It just hasn’t changed.

DOWNER: Well, sort of, my argument, Jackie, is that - what is the state government responsible for? I mean, you begin to wonder after a while, because they’re always saying,

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why doesn’t the federal government do this, why doesn’t it do that? But they do have a role, and one of their roles is roads and infrastructure. They’re responsible for that.

They’ve got two billion dollars in extra revenue - two thousand million dollars in extra revenue - over the last four years. So I’d have to ask, and this is as a South Australia myself, and I know my constituents in the Hills and down the {inaudible} ask - where is all this money going? Sure, they’ve spent some extra money in some areas, no denying that. But, I mean, all governments have. But, you know, where is the real investment into these infrastructure projects? It’s crucial to the state.

BYNER: Let’s go to Hawthorndene. Hi Frank.

FRANK - MALE TALKBACK CALLER: Howdy. I’ve just - I’ve only just switched on. I’d like to raise with Mr Downer the question of why, when fifty per cent of the population think Hicks is getting a rough deal, why so many - no-one in parliament have the courage to come forward and go over Howard and the others. We shouldn’t be letting one of our citizens be held by a foreign country for four years without trial. We’ve got murderers, and things, in jail, that are allowed visiting hours - allowed libraries - and things like that. He’s not even allowed to go to a library or allowed visiting hours. I think our members of parliament are so gutless, and it’s - they’ve - most of them have been brought up in a sheltered - so many have been brought up in a sheltered existence, and they just don’t realise. It’s so gutless.

I’d please like to hear Mr Downer say to the - at least come out with something in favour of not locking up Australian citizens.

DOWNER: Well, there are a lot of Australians locked up around the world.

BYNER: About a hundred and fifty, as I understand it.

DOWNER: Yeah, there are a lot. So if people get in - if people behave in foolish ways overseas, they’ve got to remember there aren’t special laws for Australians overseas.

BYNER: Do you think David Hicks has been harshly treated? Unfairly treated?

DOWNER: No I don’t. And I’ll tell you why I don’t. First of all, in both the cases of Hicks and Habib - we said to the Americans - if you’re not going to bring charges against these people, in the end you’ll have to release them in our view. They did release Habib because

charges weren’t brought against him. They haven’t released Hicks because he’s been charged. He is facing very serious charges. Charges of conspiracy to commit war crimes, and attempted murder. They are extremely serious charges. Now, through a whole lot of legal manoeuvres in American courts, his trial has been postponed and postponed. But it’s only been postponed because of legal manoeuvres in the courts.

BYNER: Hi Geoff.

GEOFF - MALE TALKBACK CALLER: Hi there Leon. Hello Mr Downer.

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DOWNER: Yeah, g’day.

GEOFF: I rung a few years back, just before the federal election, and spoke to Mr Howard about this issue, and he assured me he’d follow this up. But, as far as I know, nothing’s been done about it. My father was killed in the Bali bombings. And three and a half years on, the people that did it are still living and breathing and, well, not enjoying life but certainly haven’t got their justice. I’m just wondering if anything’s going to be done about it.

DOWNER: You mean the people who committed the bombings?

GEOFF: Yes, exactly.

DOWNER: Yeah. Well, three of them are on death row …

GEOFF: Yeah, I know that. They’ve been on there for quite a while.

DOWNER: Yeah, they have. I mean, there are a lot of legal processes to go through in Indonesia before an execution takes place. But they’re still being followed through. I’m not going to make any predictions as to what will happen to them, but I wouldn’t be - I mean, I think the Indonesians are determined - there are several others who got - I think two others who got a life sentence - and there are others who have been sentenced to much shorter periods because their crimes are a little different. But I actually think the Indonesians have been pretty vigorous in eventually bringing to justice those people. But whether they’ll

execute those three, we’ll just have to wait and see.

BYNER: Peter Christopher is on the line from the Public Service Association. Peter, good morning.

PETER CHRISTOPHER - PUBLIC SERVICE ASSOCIATION: Good morning Leon. Leon, I thought I should just clarify the PSA situation, given earlier comments. The PSA is not affiliated to the ALP. As an apolitical organisation, we will have a go at any government or Opposition that has a go at public sector workers.

Last year we had a fairly major wages campaign against the current government and at considerable expense and effort. This time around the Opposition have in fact come out and said they would slash four thousand public sector jobs. We are running a major campaign to defend the roles that our members perform in government; promote the value of that work. But we are not, as I think has been asserted, linked to the PSA or caught up - linked to the ALP or caught up in ALP politics. We are not an affiliate.

BYNER: Alexander?

DOWNER: Yeah, I don’t think in the executive of the PSA there’d be too many Liberals. And I must say - the way the advertisements have suddenly cropped up - I would have thought there had been a fair bit of discussion between the Labor Party and the PSA, putting a strategy together here. I can’t believe for a minute - and I don’t think listeners would believe for a minute - that a union like the PSA has nothing to do with the Labor Party, that this was

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just a spontaneous uprising by a completely objective body. Those ads are blatantly party political, and I think they discredit the PSA.

CHRISTOPHER: Mr Downer, you are wrong. The situation is that until the announcement was made by the Opposition that they were to cut four thousand public sector jobs, the PSA had in fact determined to remain completely {inaudible}neutral in this campaign.

BYNER: So really, Peter, you’re saying that had it not been for that initiative taken by the Libs, you guys wouldn’t have had that campaign on telly?

CHRISTOPHER: That is correct.

BYNER: Okay. Gentlemen, thank you for joining us. Alexander, thanks for joining us. I know you’ve got other appointments.

ENDS