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ATTORNEY -GENERAL THE HON PHILIP RUDDOCK MP

MINISTER FOR CITIZENSHIP & MULTICULTURAL AFFAIRS THE HON JOHN COBB MP

TRANSCRIPT

Parliament House, Canberra ACT 2600 • Tel ephone (02) 6277 7300 • Fax (02) 6273 4102 www.law.gov.au/ag

JOINT DOORSTOP INTERVIEW

FOLLOWING

AUSTRALIAN MUSLIM REFERENCE GROUP MEETING

PARLIAMENT HOUSE,

CANBERRA

THURSDAY , OCTOBER 6 , 2005

MINISTER COBB: Two and a half weeks ago, at the first meeting of the

Reference Group, which came out of the Prime

Minister’s summit in August, I undertook to ask Philip

Ruddock, the Attorney -General, to brief our Australian

Muslin Reference Group on the proposed security

measures which were being put together and hopefully

put into parliament before the end of this year. The

Attorney -General just spent nearly two hours t alking

with the Reference Group and I think he has fully dealt

with any fears or misconceptions that the ‐ in other

words, that this is not a law targeting Australian

Muslims. This is a law targeting people who threaten

Australia’s security. And, I want to thank Dr Ameer Ali,

the Chairman of our Reference Group, for bringing the

group back today, and I would like to ask Philip

Ruddock and Dr Ali to comment further on what

happened today.

Attorney -General Transcript 2

ATTORNEY -GENERAL : Firstly, I made the point in my own discussions with the

group that I’d had a number of meetings with Islamic

community le aders over the weekend, and particularly

with AFIC ‐ the body that Ameer heads ‐ the Australian

Federation of Islamic Communities ‐ and one of the

points that I think the broader community doesn’t

readily appreciate is that if tragically some event were to

occur in Australia, one of the groups that would

significantly feel the backlash if it were seen to be

generated by those extremist elements, would be the

Islamic community as a whole.

And, I think it’s important that the broader Australian

community kno ws that Muslims broadly are concerned

to ensure that the laws of Australia are adhered to; that

they’re there to protect the Australian community, and

that they are good and valued members of our

Australian family. And, they are just as concerned about

some of these horrific acts that we’ve seen; they’re just as

concerned about those who challenge the values of our

society.

I welcomed the opportunity to reassure all of those who

are part of the Reference Group that , in the measures

that we are proposing, each of them, there are

safeguards that are included. I took each of the measures

in turn, and outlined why, in relation to control orders,

they might be needed; why, in relation to preventive

detention, it was an appropriate measure; why, in

relation to the rules dealing with particularly production

of documents, they were appropriate ‐ the stop, search,

and powers that the States now have, being used by the

Commonwealth; how each of them would be, would be

utilised; what checks and balances would apply.

Attorney -General Transcript 3

And in relation to each of those measures, along with a

briefing about the present security environment, the

Group agreed that the measures were appropriate in

that environment, and welcomed the explanations that I

have given.

And I am gratified for the leadership that they have

displayed and their willingness to work with me in

ensuring that these laws as they are implemented in the

latter half of this year are well understood. I made it

clear that I’d be prepared to go out and talk to people, as

I have already, and to do so in each of the States and

Territories, and during, during October and November,

as I’m able, I’ll be undertaking that task.

DR AMEER ALI: Yes, we realise the current environment, the need for

these laws. We ourselves need protection. We were

rather concerned about the way these laws are going to

be implemented. Having listened to the Attorney -General and Minister John Cobb, we are being more

comfortable in the assurances provided, and the

safeguards that are engraved in these laws. And

therefore we think that we can now sell these to our

community with much easier, with much more comfort,

because we think that there’s adequate, is balanced laws;

it has enough safeguards and it protects us from any

incident that might happen in this country.

JOURNALIST: Were you concerned about racial profiling, and what

sort of assurances did you get on that?

ATTORNEY -GENERAL: Well let me just say first , there is no racial profiling . And

if there were to be in the conduct of these laws, racial

elements taken i nto account, we would have to amend

Attorney -General Transcript 4

the Racial Discrimination Act. We have no intention of

doing so.

JOURNALIST: Dr Ali, can I ask you, about racial profiling ‐ concerns

about it? Did that come up as a concern?

DR ALI: That was, racial profiling was anti -constitutional. It was

against the law for anti -discrimination , so therefore we

are more comfortable, and we put our trust in the

government, and if there is a case like that, then they

will take care of that.

JOURNALIST: But were you discussing the fact that Mus lim

communities had been concerned they’d be targeted,

and did you get assurances on that?

DR ALI: Yes, we were concerned about it, that was the general

alarm in the community, but now we have been given

enough assurances that we will not be targeted.

JOURNALIST: What safeguards have been… ?

JOURNALIST: Given that Islamist extremists that are responsible for all

the recent terrorist attacks in the region, how can you be

confident that there won’t be racial profiling?

DR ALI: There are rednecks in every society ; not only in

Australian community, every community have rednecks,

and they might be able to twist and turn these laws, but

generally we put our trust in the government, and we

are confident that the broader community will not target

the Muslim community. I give you an example, why I

am so confident ‐ after the September 11 there were

enough incidences; vandalism, our mosques were burnt,

and stoned, but surprisingly, because of the tremendous

Attorney -General Transcript 5

amount of work that you have put in, after the London

bom bing, not one incident was reported in this country.

That goes to the credit of every community in this

country, that was a giant effort that they have made in

creating this mutual environment, and not to target the

community for the, for the deranged acts of one or two

individuals.

JOURNALIST: Were you given security information today from ASIO,

Australian Federal Police, that’s changed your view?

DR ALI: We haven’t met the security yet, but we’ll be talking to

them ‐ there’s nothing to stop us from talking to them.

They’ll be talking with us, and they were not present in

the meeting today.

JOURNALIST: Did the Attorney -General give you any further

information about intelligence information that makes

you feel the threat is greater here than you perhaps

previously thought?

DR ALI: We are more secure here than anywhere else.

ATTORNEY -GENERAL: Let me just clear up the issue as to what you include in a

briefing. I include information that is publicly known

and available. And, I certainly brief people in terms of

the fact that Australia was targeted well before

September 11 2001 . It happened in Singapore. I certainly

make it clear that before our engagement in Iraq,

Australians tragically lost their life in Bali, and if you

were going to analyse these issues , while I can ’t give and

won ’t give security information, intelligence information

that I might be privy to, publicly, nor will I disclose it to

other gatherings of peo ple who may further disclose it,

Attorney -General Transcript 6

the evidence is extraordinarily compelling, about the

nat ure of the risk that we face.

If you add to the targeting of Australia’s interests

abroad, the fact that a number of people have been

charged with terrorist offences here, and when you

know that there are other activities which are of concern,

and which the Australian Federal Police and ASIO say

can only adequately be dealt with, with the enhanced

laws that we have announced, and that’s the advice

we’ve given to the Premiers and to the government; it

would be pretty foolhardy, and this is what I say to

peo ple ‐ if we have advice, but in order to be able to

better protect the Australian community, these measures

are necessary, and we ignore it, and something were to

occur, we’re going to be held accountable.

JOURNALIST: Dr Ali, can you say that every representative at the

meeting today has accepted these laws as you have?

DR ALI: It was unanimous. Not one single disappointed person.

JOURNALIST: Dr Ali, can you please give some examples of the

assurances, the concrete assurances that were given to

you that have m ade you this confident now? What are

some of the…

DR ALI: For example ‐ there will not be any arbitrary arrest . If

there is reasonable evidence to, to sort of, to get a

warrant, the police will first consult with Attorney -General; the Attorney -General will consult his officers,

and then the warrant has to come from a judge. And

even the n, the detention is only for 48 hours; 48 hours;

and the maximum is two weeks if it is implemented by

the State. And, what more can you expect?

Attorney -General Transcript 7

JOURNALIST: Dr Ali, the meetin g unanimously condemns the Bali

attacks. What message do you hope that, goes to the

community?

DR ALI: No sensible person can support these individuals who

are deranged; who create this, or commit this crime.

They are abhorrent; they are outrageous and we

condemn them without any reservation. And that is a

sentiment felt by the entire Muslim community.

JOURNALIST: Dr Ali, given that there was a big rally in Sydney several

weeks ago about these laws and concern of many

Muslim groups there, that they were discriminatory, and

that Muslim groups there were not comfortable with ,

how will you sell it to them and do you think that they

will be able to be convinced?

DR ALI: That is our responsibility. That perception was there no

doubt, but now that we have been given the assurance

and we have seen the details of these, what the Attorney

General has given us, it is the responsibility of the

Muslim leadership to sell this to the community and

allay their fears.

ATTORNEY -GENERAL: I’d like to think that people in the community, before

they discuss these matters and offer a view, have read

the annexures from the COAG statement, because they

were the documents I used today to outline the various

protections that are involved. And we’ll give you a fresh

copy. We’ll give you a copy of the briefing notes that

were made a vailable to the Reference Group because

they take you through step by step, in relation to each

measure, what needs to be done in order for the orders

sought to be obtained.

Attorney -General Transcript 8

JOURNALIST: You don’t expect every member of the Muslim

community, Mr Ruddock, to be reading that, that

document surely. Isn’t it incumbent upon you and other

members of G overnment to sell it?

ATTORNEY -GENERAL: I think the media have a responsibility to play a role in

ensuring that the Australian community is aware of the

safeguards. And I don’t know that I’ve seen them

published anywhere.

MINISTER : There’s also…

ATTORNEY -GENERAL: And I just make this point ‐ I do intend to accept

invitations from the communities, as I said earlier. And

Queensland is alread y putting in place its bid, but I will

go to each State and Territory and meet with community

representatives and explain to them; as I did last

weekend with AFIC.

MINISTER : It’s also ‐ to cover that issue is the reason that the

Reference Group is as diverse as it is. It has young

people; some three people quite young; it has clerics, it

has representatives pretty much covering the whole of

Australia. And it’s to cover the fact that Australia’s

Muslim community is as diverse as is Christian and

every other community. That’s why the Group is as

diverse as it is, to get that message out that we’ve been

talking about right amongst all of our Australian

Muslims.

JOURNALIST: Mr Ruddock, there is a gulf in acceptance I guess, if you

like, from what many grassroots Muslim groups feel, or

some of the people feel, and what you’re putting

forward. Do you recognise that gulf, and can you

understand why they have been concerned?

Attorney -General Transcript 9

ATTORNEY -GENERAL: Well look, I can understand that if measures are

misrepresented by broad descriptions that they’re

constraining people’s freedoms, that some people will

say, gee that’s, that’s pretty terrible isn’t it, when they’ve

never…

JOURNALIST: But don’t they have a [inaudible] fear that in relation …

ATTORNEY -GENERAL: No. I think, no I think there are some groups who go out

and who see measures of this sort as constraining

liberties that they believe are absolute, rather than

matters that have to be balanced. And there are some

people who put that, and there are some people who

will go and find those w ho will say exactly that. What

I’d like to see you do, is to take the annexures to the

COAG document and go through each of the measures,

with some of those advocates, and see whether or not

you can get a more reasonable debate going.

And, I’d just finally conclude by saying, I have no doubt

that when people are aware of the detail, and some of

the generalised concerns will, will evaporate fairly

quickly. And I accept that I have some responsibility to

ensure that those matters are, are addressed. That’ s one

of the reasons I was here today; it’s one of the reasons I

spoke at the AFIC conference over the weekend; it’s one

of the reasons I’ve agreed to accept other engagements,

and I will.

JOURNALIST : Dr Ali, the last point on this communiqué is on the need

for the care and the use of language to avoid

stereotyping and stigmatising. Do you think that

members of government or senior security officials have

used inappropriate language?

Attorney -General Transcript 10

DR ALI: Not only members of government, even the media have

using inappropriate language. We want to take the

word Islam away from terrorism. Each time you call

Islamic militants, Islamic insurgents, that’s an

oxymoron. So that’s what we mean, and we don’t want

to say that to the community, and we don’t want to use

the inappropriate language to tarnish the entire

community by dragging Islamic into this picture.

ATTORNEY -GENERA L: And, look, let me just make it very clear as far as the

government is concerned, the great bulk of Muslims in

Australia are law -abiding citizens who have a

commitm ent to this nation and it s future. And, we don’t

think that stereotyping of the community broadly is

acceptable, and I certainly acknowledge that, in the way

in which I address these issues. I have to express myself

with care. I d o, and I will continue to do so. A nd it’s

important, without, without pointing the finger, to just

reinforce the view that needs to be there in the

Australian community, that what we are about is

looking at behaviour that is abhorrent; behaviour that is

going to endanger people’ s lives. And, some of those

people often invoke the name, and we talked about this

today, you know. Bin Laden has been known to invoke

the name of the Prophet Allah. He has no, no

entitlement…

DR ALI: Yes.

ATTORNEY -GENERAL: …no entitlement to do that, and we want to ensure that

people understand that the broader community should

not be blamed because some people do that.

JOURNALIST: Dr Ali, on Bali, has there been any backlash within the

Muslim community from the latest bombings?

Attorney -General Transcript 11

DR ALI: Not that I know of ; not a sin gle incident was reported to

me, throughout the whole country.

JOURNALIST: Dr Ali, have you asked for any extra assistance in selling

it? You’ve said you take the responsibility of selling the

government’s new laws. What extra help do you want

from them?

DR ALI: The Reference Group will cooperate with the

government, and do all is possible to say this, to tell the

community that there is absolutely nothing that we

should be worried about. I said, mentioned earlier, there

can be exceptions f or any laws, and if an exceptional

case arises, left to the law enforcing authorities to take

care of it.

JOURNALIST: And Dr Ali, did any of your members admonish the

government at all for not being more frank in the first

summit meeting; not alluding apparently at that meeting

to the forthcoming laws that were coming down the

pipeline?

DR ALI: In fact it was mentioned by the Prime Minister that the

laws are being, they are thinking of bringing new laws.

It was mentioned, but they didn’t have the details at that

time to tell us.

JOURNALIST: And was that a matter of…

ATTORNEY -GENERAL: So, well, look, I mean, this is an incremental task. I have

laws that are in the process of being drafted. I haven’t

shown the drafts to the Group, you know, we’ll get the

drafts to the Group as, when they’ve gone through the

procedures that I’m now about to embark upon ‐

backbench committee approval, getting them to the

Attorney -General Transcript 12

Premiers, and so on. And again I have assured them that

we will be providing that material as and when we can .

I think that really needs to be it.

JOURNALIST: Attorney -General, on immigration, today the

Ombudsman’s delivered a ‐ do you take any

responsibility for the criticisms…

ATTORNEY -GENERAL: No. None at all. Okay. Thank you all.

ENDS