Senator IAN MACDONALD (5:54 PM) —Thank you for that. But the amendment we want to adopt would require, if a government department took a carrier licence—

Senator Conroy —As they could now.

Senator IAN MACDONALD —Don’t we need to then ensure that anyone taking a carrier licence must actually then retail services more broadly, not just to themselves? Otherwise the import of it is that NBN is dealing directly with a government department. And I suspect it would not be just a department; I suspect it would be, for example, the whole of the Commonwealth government or the whole of the Queensland government—

Senator Conroy —Just as it could be now.

Senator IAN MACDONALD —That would take away from the business of the retail service providers. Senator Conroy, you said that they could do that now.

Senator Conroy —Exactly.

Senator IAN MACDONALD —As I understand it, Optus have not worried about that, Telstra have not worried about that and the other big telcos have not worried about that to date, but they are now worried and have been for some time that NBN Co. might actually be effectively operating in the retail market by selling its layer 2 services on in a retail sort of way. That is why they are concerned. Senator Conroy, you will no doubt—as you have in the past—get up and have a tirade against your old mates Telstra, who weren’t your old mates for a while, then they were back as your new mates and then they weren’t. I am not quite sure where you are at the moment in your relationship with Telstra, although if you believe what you read in the popular press Telstra are getting a bit tired of you. They have already put back their extraordinary general meeting from 1 July till sometime in September or October. With the amendments you dropped on the table yesterday, I suspect they are going to be even less enthused about taking something to their shareholders. If NBN Co. are going to be in a position where they can compete with Telstra, what is in it for Telstra? That realisation is coming out. That is why I think it is important to look at the amendment we have moved, which provides that:

The amendment we have moved goes on to define and clarify some of the terminology used and to define how you can determine whether a service is supplied to the public. You determine that if:

As I understand these amendments, they would address the concerns that we have had and they would address the concerns that the Greens have had. I have not heard Senator Xenophon on this point. I guess this issue would be of concern to him but, more importantly, of concern to—

Senator Conroy —Telstra!

Senator IAN MACDONALD —Is it only Telstra? I thought Optus were a bit—

Senator Conroy —You’re simply representing Telstra. Why don’t you try representing consumers?

Senator IAN MACDONALD —I am not representing Telstra, Minister. I cannot think when I last spoke to anyone from Telstra—except the committee service, and that is all on the Hansard record. I think my only connection with Telstra is the mobile telephone that the government supplies to me. I think it is with Telstra—yes. That is my connection. I am not here to represent Telstra anyway. There is only one group of people I am here to represent, and that is the taxpayers of Australia. You are interjecting, Minister, and diverting me and taking me back to my lament that we lost the election sort of fair and square in 2007. I cannot say the same for 2010. In 2007 we lost it fair and square. But if we had not lost it, the OPEL contract would have been up and running and supplying a very fast broadband to places like—

Senator Conroy —OPEL lives!

Senator IAN MACDONALD —Senator Conroy, I live in the bush. I live in a medium-sized country town up in North Queensland, and part of my portfolio responsibilities on behalf of the opposition is remote Australia. Had the OPEL contract proceeded, if it had not been cancelled capriciously by your government, we would have that fast broadband now. In fact, it would have been delivered to most of Australia a year or so ago. It would be a mix of things.

Senator Conroy —It was a dog that couldn’t deliver.

Senator IAN MACDONALD —Mark my words, Minister, that is where you are going to end up. Your fibre-to-the home proposal gave you a lot of excitement: it gave you tingles up the spine. But as Mr Turnbull mentioned at the first meeting of the new joint committee this morning, he has just been to Korea and Singapore. They do not have fibre to the home there. They have fibre to the node. Even in these brand new, high-rise buildings there is fibre to the node and they send it out from there. You can dismiss that. It is only Singapore; it is only South Korea—two of the quickest and most technologically advanced communication nations in the world. They are already doing that. Hopefully, you will be able to have a look at Mr Turnbull’s video. He has offered to make it available to the committee. I am sure he would make it available to your department, because I think you might find it a bit instruc-tive. This is what happens when you make these policies on the run. They sound good and, for a little while, you can talk a language that nobody else can talk and you can get away anything.

Senator Ludlam —I have seen the video.

Senator IAN MACDONALD —You have seen the video—good.

Senator Ludlam interjecting—

Senator IAN MACDONALD —No fibre to the home.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Sen-a-tor Mark Bishop)—Order! Senator Macdonald, could you please address your remarks to the chair and not engage in conversation with other senators.

Senator IAN MACDONALD —Thank you, Mr Temporary Chairman. Senator Conroy keeps attracting my response to his disorderly interjections. He has again diverted me from the question I was asking. So I might leave it there and get Senator Conroy to answer the questions that I asked earlier. I think Senator Fisher might have some questions as well.