Senator IAN MACDONALD (2:53 PM) —My question is to Senator Conroy, Minister for Broadband, Communications and the Digital Economy. Can the minister confirm, as the business case does, that $13.8 billion is to be paid to Telstra by 2020? How much of that will be paid by government debt, understanding that NBN Co. has no money of its own at the moment and is not getting any income? How much of that $13.8 billion will be paid by government debt and how much will be paid by NBN Co. when it starts making some money?

Senator CONROY —Some of the information the good senator is seeking is contained in further information in the full business case. I understand—

Opposition senators interjecting—

Senator CONROY —The secret document that we will be releasing in a few weeks, after we have made some decisions in cabinet, following ACCC advice, and after we have made sure that no commercially sensitive information is able to be taken from it.

Senator Cormann —So it’s in a secret document is it?

Opposition senators interjecting—

Senator CONROY —Yes, that secret document. The financing of the NBN, as has been made clear on a number of occasions, is a cash injection that has been drawn down from current cash reserves. We table them in parliament quite regularly and they are posted—

Senator Brandis —How much?

Senator CONROY —As to where they are currently up to, I am happy to seek that information for you, George. I am happy to see where those cash payments are up to. The rest of the money comes from bond raisings, which will be passed on, as needed, to the National Broadband Network. Cash has already been moved across. There is more cash available to move across. As the cash expires, bonds will be issued. As to the bond issuance program, that is a finance department issue. All the cash coming across in the early years is clearly coming from the government. As to some of the other information that the senator is asking for, he will have to wait— (Time expired)

Senator IAN MACDONALD —Mr President, I ask a supplementary question. What can possibly be secretive about the $13.8 billion that has been paid by NBN Co. to Telstra? Someone has to pay for it. You indicated in the statement that you have given us that it will be paid by 2020. What I was asking—and I am repeating this after asking about what is secretive—is: how much of that will be government debt and equity and how much will there be when NBN makes its own funds? What is the expected changeover date?

Senator CONROY (Minister for Broadband, Communications and the Digital Economy and Minister Assisting the Prime Minister on Digital Productivity) —As I was going to say, Senator Macdonald will just have to wait a few short weeks for that information to be available.

Opposition senators interjecting—

Senator CONROY —Yet again, what this shows is that those opposite—and you are listening to the cry of the banshees from the other side—are simply involved in trying to denigrate the NBN, destroy the NBN and, to borrow Mr Abbott’s favourite phrase, abolish the NBN.

Senator Brandis —Mr President, I rise on a point of order. The question was about relativity between debt and equity and it was about a date—the date when private debt and equity would overtake government debt and equity. The minister has merely, for the entire time he has been on his feet, abused the opposition and done nothing else. He has been neither directly nor indirectly relevant to either of the two matters he was asked about.

Senator Ludwig —Mr President, on the point of order: Senator Brandis claims the minister has been abusing the opposition. That is untrue. The minister has been going through the business case and explaining it. It is clear that the minister has rejected some of the interjections and quite properly so, because interjections are disorderly. On the main point, the minister has been directly relevant and I humbly submit that there is no point of order.

The PRESIDENT —Senator Conroy, there are 31 seconds remaining for you to address the question.

Senator CONROY —As I have already pointed out, that information is contained in the expanded business report, which we have not released yet. In a few short weeks that information will be available. Despite their interjections and the point of order, I have been directly relevant to the question. What it exposes is that those opposite are on their ongoing mission to demolish the National Broadband Network.

Senator IAN MACDONALD —Mr President, I ask a further supplementary question. I repeat for the third time: why is the information about who is paying the $13.8 billion that goes to Telstra such a secret? Isn’t it a fact that, if it is government equity and debt, that actually adds to the cost and makes a complete mockery of your allegation that costs are falling and it is a cost that has to be added on to the $35.7 billion NBN capital expenditure? Why is it secret, Minister? Tell us that first and then tell us what the cost is.

Senator CONROY (Minister for Broadband, Communications and the Digital Economy and Minister Assisting the Prime Minister on Digital Productivity) —There is not a lot I can add when you are as economically and financially illiterate as has just been demonstrated by that question. There are so many false premises and assertions in that question, Senator Macdonald, it is not possible to answer it.

Senator Ian Macdonald —Mr President, I raise a point of order on direct relevance. My question—asked three times now—was very clear and very direct. It was: why is it such a secret how the $13.8 billion—which the minister said someone is going to pay to Telstra, is to be paid? There is nothing about that—

Senator Chris Evans —What’s the point of order?

Senator Ian Macdonald —Direct relevance. It has got nothing to do with the question of why it is so secret.

The PRESIDENT —There is no point of order. The minister is answering the question. I cannot instruct the minister how to answer the question, as I say on numerous occasions. The minister has 36 seconds remaining.

Senator CONROY —Let me be clear again. The information that Senator Macdonald is seeking is contained in the full report, and that report will be made available in a few weeks, in December, as the Prime Minister has indicated. That question was so lacking in any coherence that it is not possible to give a further answer.

The PRESIDENT —Order! Pursuant to the order agreed to earlier today, questions are concluded.