Senator CHRIS EVANS (2:15 PM) —I have a question for Senator Hill, the Minister for Defence. It follows on from his selective misquoting of Mr Latham in his previous answer. I also remind him that we had a long discussion about Iraq at the estimates meeting on 18 February, at which we discussed the deployment of the troops, their role and when they would be coming home. Putting that to one side for the moment, can the minister confirm that he requested the Secretary of the Department of Defence, Mr Ric Smith, to provide him with advice on briefings of the Leader of the Opposition by members of the ADF or officials of the Department of Defence? Were Mr Smith or his deputy secretary, Mr Bonighton, given any directions about the contents of the letters? Were they provided with draft letters?

Senator HILL (Minister for Defence) —I do not remember Mr Latham saying yesterday that he got his information from the Hansard; he said he got it from Senator Chris Evans. The whole world had the opportunity to know what happened in the estimates committee. I suspect Mr Latham did not read the Hansard. I suspect he is ignorant of these matters. I suspect that until very recently he had no interest in these matters. If he had an interest, why would he have made this silly policy—this dangerous policy—on the run—

Senator Chris Evans —Mr President, I rise on a point of order on the question of relevance. The minister did his dorothy dixer and his rave. I asked him a specific question about whether he gave the instructions of the request to the Secretary of the Department of Defence.

Senator Ian Campbell —What's the point of order?

Senator Chris Evans —Will you ask the minister to refer to the question—

The PRESIDENT —Order! Senator Campbell!

Senator Chris Evans —and ask Senator Campbell to sit down and pipe down—

The PRESIDENT —Senator Campbell, come to order!

Senator Ian Campbell —He has to come to order too.

The PRESIDENT —Senator Campbell, are you reflecting on the chair?

Senator Ian Campbell —I am reflecting on him.

The PRESIDENT —I ask you to remain silent. Senator Evans, your point of order was regarding relevance.

Senator Chris Evans —As I stated, the minister has not attempted to answer the question at all. He has continued with his dorothy dixer. I would ask you to bring his attention to the question.

The PRESIDENT —The minister has 3½ minutes left to answer the question. I remind him of the question.

Senator HILL —I actually thought that Senator Evans raised the issue of the estimates committee. He was trying to provide wriggle room for Mr Latham because Mr Latham said he took advice from Senator Evans, and Senator Evans had not had a briefing for a year. So Senator Evans on the run says, `Oh, yes, it must've come out of the estimates committee.' But that is not a briefing; that is advice to the world.

Senator Chris Evans —We get more there than we get out of the briefings.

Senator HILL —Don't smile, Senator Evans. The point I was making is that this opposition leader is not interested in facts. He made this policy on the run. He thought there was some short-term political advantage, some popular position and some popular gain he could get from this policy and, without thinking about the consequences to Australian forces and without thinking about the consequences to Iraq, he let this policy go and since then he has been trying to wriggle out of it.

Senator Chris Evans —Mr President, on the point of order: the minister has now had another 1½ minutes. I draw your attention to the question of relevance. I asked him a specific question about a request made to the defence secretary, whether he made it and whether he gave instructions about what the letter should contain. I ask you to draw his attention to the question.

The PRESIDENT —I have ruled and other presidents have ruled that I cannot instruct the minister as to how he is to answer the question. All I can do is remind him of the question and remind him that he has 2½ minutes left.

Senator Cook —Don't duck and weave, face up to your responsibility and answer the question.

The PRESIDENT —Order, Senator Cook!

Senator HILL —Mr Latham claimed to have been briefed by defence officials—

Senator Carr —Did you ask the secretary of the department? Did you monster the secretary?

Senator HILL —on operational matters in Iraq. I, through my office, asked the secretary of my department whether that is correct. He asked around the department and said no—no evidence of any briefings for Mr Latham. Similarly, Mr Bonighton is on the public record as indicating through the letter that has been tabled that there was no operational briefing from him. So yesterday Mr Latham just totally invented this story and, in doing so, did serious damage to a highly respected and professional public servant.

Senator Faulkner —The only person he did damage to was John Howard—that's who he did damage to.

Senator HILL —This is the Labor Party that was telling us how important it was to protect the integrity of public servants only a week or so ago!

The PRESIDENT —Order! Senator Faulkner!

Senator HILL —What short memories. What double standards.

The PRESIDENT —Order! Senator Faulkner, continually shouting across the chamber while the minister is trying to answer the question does not help.

Senator Bolkus —You guys got a drubbing yesterday; you're getting one today too and you deserve it.

Senator HILL —It is one thing for Mr Latham to invent an explanation to try and get himself out of this mess, but what right has he got to undermine the credibility of a highly respected public servant? How many on the other side went to Mr Latham and said, `How dare you do this?' Did Senator Ray? Did Senator Faulkner? All of those who are demanding high standards—

Senator Chris Evans —You dragged him into this.

Senator HILL —in relation to the treatment of public servants—

The PRESIDENT —Order! Senator Evans, Senator Cook and Senator Bolkus, continually shouting across the chamber is disorderly. It has been ruled so on many occasions. I have asked you to come to order—and, Senator Ian Campbell, interjections by you do not help either.

Senator HILL —The interjection was that we dragged him into it. We did not; he claimed he got the briefings. He did not tell the truth; he invented it. No-one gave him the briefings. He dragged the public servants into this debate, and he was prepared to kick the public servants in the guts to try and make a political point—

Senator Chris Evans —Mr President, I rise on a point of order. It is now 4½ minutes since the question was asked, and the minister still has not brought himself to answer the question. You keep bringing us to order in terms of interjections. We would like an answer to the question; otherwise there is no point to question time.

The PRESIDENT —There is no point of order.

Senator Cook —You're gutless, Hill. Face up to your responsibilities.

The PRESIDENT —Withdraw that! Senator Cook, I ask you to withdraw.

Senator Cook —What?

The PRESIDENT —What you just said. It was unparliamentary.

Senator Cook —I'm telling the truth.

The PRESIDENT —Senator Cook, I ask you to withdraw that unparliamentary language.

Senator Cook —If you want me to withdraw the truth, I withdraw.

The PRESIDENT —I ask you to withdraw that unconditionally.

Senator Faulkner —He has withdrawn.

The PRESIDENT —I do not need your advice, Senator Faulkner.

Senator Cook —I've withdrawn my statement, Mr President.

Senator HILL —It reminds me of the truth he told about the size of the deficit. We all remember that—Senator Cook, economics minister for the Labor government. `The budget is in surplus,' he said, when it was $10 billion in deficit.

Senator Cook —Mr President, on a point of order: ask him to withdraw that line.

The PRESIDENT —Senator, there is no point of order. You know that.

Senator HILL —I said that my office—me—asked the secretary to clarify the matter. My office—me—asked Mr Bonighton to clarify the matter.

Senator CHRIS EVANS —Mr President, I ask a supplementary question. At the end, the minister finally addressed the question. I would like him to confirm that his office asked Mr Smith to respond on 30 March and that again yesterday his office went back to Mr Bonighton and asked him to provide more details or asked him to specifically reply. Can he also confirm whether or not any specific instruction was given to Mr Bonighton in terms of how the letter should be provided and what form it should take? Will the minister ensure that both Mr Smith and Mr Bonighton are at the next budget estimates round in order to provide evidence to the budget estimates committee?

Senator HILL (Minister for Defence) —They will both be at the estimates committee hearing, and I bet they are terrified at the thought of an interrogation by Senator Chris Evans. They are quite big enough to write their own letters. And why were they dragged into it? Because the Labor Party claimed, through Mr Latham, to have received briefings, which was never the case—invented.

Senator Chris Evans —Which he had.

The PRESIDENT —Senator Evans, continually shouting across the chamber is disorderly, and you know it is. If the Senate does not come to order on both sides of the chamber and cut down the noise, I will very seriously consider suspending question time.

Senator Faulkner —Mr President, on a point of order: you have called opposition senators to order continually during question time today. In my view—and I think in the view of any reasonable person—there has been as much interjection and disorderly conduct on the government side as there has been on the opposition side. Sure, opposition senators have been interjecting. Fine, I do not mind opposition senators being called to order when that happens, but I expect you to apply the standing orders equally to senators from the government side.

Senator Conroy —I cannot hear him for the interjections.

The PRESIDENT —Are you reflecting on the chair, Senator Conroy?

Senator Conroy —No, not at all. I am just pointing out that I cannot hear him because of the interjections.

The PRESIDENT —You are interjecting yourself.

Senator Faulkner —I would ask you, Mr President, to ensure that you apply the standing orders equally to both sides of the chamber. It is a reasonable request. It is a reasonable expectation and it is certainly mine.

The PRESIDENT —Thank you for the lecture, Senator.

Senator Faulkner —I ask you to rule on my point of order.

The PRESIDENT —I will continually rule the way the interjections are called. If you recall, I have called Senator Campbell to order a dozen times today.

Senator George Campbell —Ian Campbell.

The PRESIDENT —Are we going to continue with this racket across the chamber or do you want me to suspend question time? It is up to you.