Senator ALLISON (2:56 PM) —My question is to the Minister for Health and Ageing. I refer to the report in the Sydney Morning Herald today that GPs are sending bulk-billing patients to the end of their queues. Are you concerned about this development? Shouldn't your government be insisting that all patients are treated with fairness and dignity, and will you tell GPs that giving people on low incomes their left-over time is unacceptable?

Senator PATTERSON (Minister for Health and Ageing) —I would have thought that Senator Allison would have stayed away from health issues. She will have an opportunity later on today or tomorrow to actually assist in managing the health bill by agreeing—or by the Democrats agreeing—to a modest increase in the copayment in order for us to rein in the cost of the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme, which has gone from $1 billion to $4.5 billion last year.

Senator Allison —Mr President, I rise on a point of order. The minister is debating an entirely different matter and I ask to you to direct her to answer the question I raised.

The PRESIDENT —I cannot tell the minister how to answer the question, but she still has three minutes and 28 seconds and I hope she will return to the question.

Senator PATTERSON —I think that just demonstrates that Senator Allison thinks in silos, that she does not understand there is a whole health bill and that I have to balance, as the responsible minister, the whole of the health bill and we have—

Senator Allison —Mr President, I rise on a point of order. Perhaps you will remind the minister that, since that bill is on the bills list, she ought not be debating it in this place.

Senator PATTERSON —I will debate the issue. Senator Allison does not want to hear the truth.

The PRESIDENT —You will not debate the Pharmaceutical Benefits—

Senator PATTERSON —No. I am debating the issue of the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme and its sustainability and the fact that we need a modest increase in copayments to ensure that we can deal with the fact that it is growing at the rate of 10 per cent. Senator Allison wants to divorce that from the issue of the Medicare Benefits Scheme, but Medicare is about the whole suite of issues for health. It is about the MBS, it is about the PBS, it is about public hospitals, but you cannot separate one from the other. If Senator Allison wants to divide them and say, `Don't let's talk about the PBS; let's talk about the MBS and bulk-billing,' I want to impress on her that, as the responsible health minister, I have to balance the whole of the health budget. She has to understand that. If you have the PBS growing at the rate of 10 per cent a year—14, it was; we have tried to drive that back—it will be $7 billion, which is a third of what we now pay for the whole health bill. She might be concerned about bulk-billing, and there are issues with bulk-billing and I have talked about that, but most doctors are not involved in placing people at the end of queues. I am concerned if that is the case but I would say that it would be a handful of doctors, if they are doing it. She drags out one case, when we have to look at the whole of the health bill: how do we balance it? How do we deal with an ever-burgeoning increase in the cost of health, in the cost of the MBS and in the cost of the PBS? The only time she has had a chance to do something to assist me, she has baulked at it—the Democrats have baulked at it.

I have said to Senator Allison that one of the concerns I have is about the Labor Party, the Democrats and the Greens not agreeing to assist in passing a modest copayment, which does have an influence on the amount of money we have to spend on the MBS. Every dollar that we spend on the PBS is a dollar we do not have to spend on the MBS. At some stage, the chickens will come home to roost. At some stage, the PBS will have to go up. There are people with young families now who are paying a smaller proportion of their income on the PBS. When it has to go up, and it will have to go up at some stage— Labor increased it a number of times when they were in government, and we were fiscally responsible and actually agreed with it, but when we put up something they disagree with it—there will then be people with small children who will pay a higher proportion of their income to look after their children on the PBS. They are causing microintragenerational disadvantages between groups, but they are not prepared to accept that. So a young family that uses a high number of pharmaceuticals will be paying more for their pharmaceuticals. But Senator Allison wants me to do something about bulk-billing. Well, Senator Allison, give me a break on the PBS so I have some money to do something about the MBS.

Senator ALLISON —Mr President, I ask a supplementary question. I thank the minister for her answer. I ask her to elaborate on what she said—namely, that there are just a handful of doctors who are pushing patients to the end of their queue if they are bulk-billed. How many is a handful? Can figures be provided to the Senate? And, again, does the government approve of this approach to people? Is it treating all patients with fairness and dignity in the way that most of us expect?

Senator PATTERSON (Minister for Health and Ageing) —I said that I presumed there were only a handful. I presume that most doctors would be dealing with people in a fair and equitable way, and that is what we expect of doctors. There will always be some. There are pharmacists who have defrauded the system. There are some doctors who may be doing that. I would encourage them not to and hope that they do not do it, but if Senator Allison would go back and rethink the issue we have before us from the budget that would help me deal with some of the issues of bulk-billing. Money does not grow on trees, Senator Allison.

Senator Hill —Mr President, I ask that further questions be placed on the Notice Paper.