Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Communications, Information Technology and the Arts) (10:18 AM) —The government's view is that the Democrats' amendment, although it does not go as far as item 31 in the bill, which is the government's preferred position, does move things in the right direction. It says that costs can be awarded in most types of proceedings in the commission which relate to the termination of employment and, by lowering the threshold test for determining costs applications, the proposed amendments will increase access to costs and further deter proceedings that are instituted without any reasonable cause.

To pick up what Senator Collins said earlier in relation to keeping costs down and trying to keep the process informal and also in relation to what was probably a bit of a throwaway line about lawyers getting involved, I think that we all respect the fact that these sorts of proceedings are, for both the employer and the employee, matters of high stakes. Regardless of what sort of employment you are talking about, you are dealing with people's lives, so clearly people need representation, and some people will obviously feel a lot happier having a lawyer present. I am sure that Senator Ludwig, who is sitting immediately behind Senator Collins, would think that lawyers could and should be involved in these proceedings on occasion. I do not want to encourage Senator Ludwig to speak, but I am sure that lawyers have a place in these situations. Where there are costs, clearly it is appropriate that the commission be able to make an award of costs. I think the Democrats' amendment is quite reasonable, particularly to the extent that you do need a reasonable deterrent in relation to cases being instituted without reasonable cause. I think awarding of costs is a fair mechanism, not only to do that but also so that the parties have some respect and some knowledge and understanding of the costs that are involved.