Senator COOK (Deputy Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) (2:07 PM) —My question is to Senator Kemp, the Assistant Treasurer. Is the minister aware that Mr Chris Jordan is a senior partner of KPMG, the same firm which is alleged to have heavied the ATO on no less than eight separate occasions to have senior ATO officers removed from audits or reviews of his big business clients? Isn't it also the case that Mr Jordan sits on the new Board of Taxation, which advises the government on the design and operation of Australia's tax laws? Isn't it the case that the Board of Taxation is in a position to recommend changes to transfer pricing laws which could benefit KPMG's big business clients? Doesn't this constitute a serious conflict of interest on behalf of Mr Jordan?

Senator KEMP (Assistant Treasurer) —This is the usual standard of questioning from Senator Cook. The question is, Senator Cook, how low you can go, and I get it wrong often, I have to say. Mr Jordan, as you know, is a very distinguished accountant, a man with an extremely impressive record in his profession and a man who has played a very, very important role in the introduction of the new tax system. Senator, I notice that you have not been able to produce any facts that would be to the contrary. When you stand up here and attack an individual, you might like to show that the individual has acted in a certain manner. Of course, you have utterly failed to do that in your question. Your question is quite barren of facts; it is very strong on assertions. There used to be an old principle in this chamber, and I may remind some of my colleagues of it. This used to be called the Robert Ray principle.

Senator Robert Ray —Which you never followed.

Senator KEMP —No, Senator, do not get upset.

Senator Robert Ray —You never followed it.

Senator KEMP —Can I say that the Robert Ray principle, as Robert Ray seems to have forgotten that principle, was, if I am quoting you correctly, `Ten yards to courage.'

Senator Robert Ray —Which you never showed.

Senator KEMP —That was the old Ray principle. That principle does not seem to apply any longer in the Labor Party, and nor, might I say, does Senator Ray bother to apply it. I say to Senator Cook: the allegations you have made are strong allegations. Let us test not only your sincerity; let us test your confidence in the facts. Let us test your courage. Why doesn't Senator Cook walk outside and make these allegations outside the chamber and not hide within the privileges of parliament? Then we would see whether Senator Cook felt there was any substance to these matters. But the truth of the matter, Senator Cook, is that you have not directly linked Mr Chris Jordan with any of those matters; you have not said that he has acted in any particular fashion. What you have done is just make some assertions. This is your typical style, I have to say. This is a style which I think many people feel demeans this parliament.

Senator Abetz —Hear, hear!

Senator Robert Ray —You are joking, Eric.

The PRESIDENT —Order!

Senator KEMP —Sorry to get personal, Robert Ray—

The PRESIDENT —Senator Kemp, refer to the senator as `Senator'.

Senator KEMP —Thank you, Madam President. The point I am making is that Senator Cook gets up and tries to traduce the character of a distinguished Australian who I think has performed important services. Madam President, I think that we will test whether Senator Cook has any facts to back up his assertions, and we will watch with interest to see whether he is prepared to walk outside the parliament and make these allegations. Let me intrude with just one prediction. My prediction is that Senator Cook is not prepared to follow the Robert Ray principle.

Senator COOK —That is one of the most deceitful answers I have heard in this chamber. It plumbs the absolute depths.

Government senators interjecting—

The PRESIDENT —Senator, do you have a supplementary question?

Senator COOK —The supplementary question is: my question was about a conflict of interest; would you answer the question about a conflict of interest? Can the Assistant Treasurer confirm that a report has been prepared by a senior ATO executive highlighting KPMG partner Mr Breckenridge's actions in having ATO officers removed from audits of his clients? Is that a fact, Minister? Secondly, can you confirm the existence of the report? If so, will you make it available to the Senate or an appropriate committee of the Senate in order to inquire into these very serious claims? While you are answering those questions, you might go back and answer the one I asked you before: is Mr Jordan's position one of a serious conflict of interest? That is the question you have to answer.

The PRESIDENT —A significant part of that supplementary question seemed to be more like a supplementary question to the first question rather than the answer.

Senator Vanstone —Madam President, I rise on a point of order. Perhaps I missed something but I understood Senator Cook to say that Minister Kemp had given a deceitful answer. He did not say that the minister misunderstood the facts; he said he gave a deceitful answer. There were calls for withdrawal but they were not taken up. That has to be a clear imputation against Senator Kemp. If you say someone is deceitful, you say that by intent they have misled, not by accident or misunderstanding. I ask you to ask Senator Cook to do what he should have done earlier, and that is withdraw.

The PRESIDENT —Senator Cook, you should withdraw that aspect of it.

Senator Cook —If I have said anything unparliamentary, I will withdraw it.

The PRESIDENT —I ask you to withdraw, Senator.

Senator Cook —I withdraw it. I wish he would answer his questions.

The PRESIDENT —Senator Kemp, with respect to the supplementary question, a part of it I do not believe was supplementary to that answer, but I leave it as a matter for you as to whether you have anything further to say.

Senator KEMP (Assistant Treasurer) —I agree with you, Madam President—it was a very poorly constructed supplementary question. I am used to being called names by Senator Peter Cook—

Senator Herron —The famous quote!

Senator KEMP —Not a famous quote, Senator Herron—a very infamous quote.

Senator Cook —Madam President, I rise on a point of order. He is not answering the question. Will you ask him to answer the question? I did not ask him what he thinks of me; I know that. But I did ask him a serious question of parliament. Will he please do this chamber the justice of actually answering the question?

The PRESIDENT —I draw your attention to the question, Senator Kemp.

Senator KEMP —Senator Peter Cook has again proved that he has probably the largest glass jaw in this parliament. It was very interesting that Senator Cook then slid off his rather personal attack on Mr Chris Jordan and raised a completely different issue. Senator Cook, I will look into the comments you made and see whether there is any further information that I am prepared to provide to you.