Senator FORSHAW (2:18 PM) —My question is directed to Senator Newman, the Minister for Family and Community Services. Does the minister recall that last night on the program 7.30 Report she accused both Kerry O'Brien and ACOSS of `putting together' figures which showed that a total of 474,000 penalties were applied in the year to 30 June 2000, of which 172,000 or nearly 35 per cent were later revoked, and that the net figure of 302,000 penalties was a 250 per cent increase over the previous three years? Has the minister questioned these figures on the 7.30 Report last night? Can she now confirm that they are correct or explain to the Senate the basis upon which she disputes them?

Senator NEWMAN (Minster for Family and Community Services and Minister Assisting the Prime Minister for the Status of Women) —The figures that were quoted last night were obtained from ACOSS and Welfare Rights. They came by way of a freedom of information request which gave the bald figures for, I think, three years. What I think was unfortunately not in the document which they requested was an explanation of why the figures for the previous years were comparing apples and oranges, not just apples and apples. The fact is that the data systems for breach recording for the previous two or three years were not consistent with the criteria for breach recording in the last year, 1999-2000. To that extent, there was discrepancy in the figures, which they could have got from me; in fact, I gave them figures not long ago. But they went by way of freedom of information, and they did not get a document that explained the differences between the various years.

Having said that, yes, there has been an increase in breaches—I would question the percentage of increase—but I would say that it is for a number of reasons. The economy under this government is, as you heard in the answer a few minutes ago, improving. More and more people each month are in jobs, and therefore there is less tolerance of people not looking for jobs when they are required to under the social security law. Therefore, inevitably, there is a growth in the number of people who have breached. In addition, there is a greater ability now by the government to data match between the Taxation Office and my department, as a result of which we are discovering more and more people who, in this growing climate of jobs, are not declaring their income to Centrelink. That, once again, is a breach of the social security law. In addition, there are other measures such as video surveillance. As you will recall, we did a pilot program on that about 2½ years ago and that is now in place.

There are a number of reasons that there has been a growth in the number of people coming before Centrelink for a breach. That is responsible, in my view, because, while we need a safety net to protect people who are in need, we also have legislation that requires them to obey the law on behalf of their neighbours. It is a serious matter when people who are on pretty low incomes themselves and paying taxes are required to provide income support for people who are not obeying the social security law.

Senator FORSHAW —Madam President, I ask a supplementary question. I thank the minister for her answer and, in fairness, I note her attempt to explain the growth. Minister: firstly, are you aware that the figures that were used on the program last night by Kerry O'Brien and also by ACOSS actually come from the department's own annual reports? Secondly, in relation to the revocation of 172,000 penalties—which is, as I said in the original question, 35 per cent—given that ACOSS found that one in three people was wrongly penalised by Centrelink, doesn't this demonstrate there is something fundamentally wrong with the system over which you preside? What action do you propose to take in response to the ACOSS report?

Senator NEWMAN (Minster for Family and Community Services and Minister Assisting the Prime Minister for the Status of Women) —There were more than 170,000 potential breaches that were not imposed or revoked by the Centrelink one-to-one contact. That means that job seekers in these cases generally suffered no financial penalty. That needs to be understood. Secondly, the system is a fair one. It was endorsed by all members of this parliament. I think it would be worth while in this context to quote the Leader of the Opposition in the Senate, Senator Faulkner, who said on the passing of this legislation:

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