Senator FAULKNER —My question is directed to Senator Hill representing the Prime Minister. Can the minister confirm Mr Moore-Wilton's statement that it is the government's intention to put Dr Malcolm McIntosh in the job of defence secretary for six to 12 months? Is Mr Moore-Wilton also correct in stating that this was discussed at a meeting which took place in June or July of this year at which the Prime Minister indicated he was unhappy about the leaking of this information to the Australian because he felt it forced his hand in sacking Mr Barratt; Mr Moore swore that it was not him who leaked and his senior adviser, who was called into the room, swore black and blue that it was not him; and that everyone agreed that it must have been Mr McIntosh? Is this the reason that Mr Moore-Wilton told Mr Barratt that `McIntosh is playing a very pernicious role in all of this'?

Senator HILL (Environment and Heritage) —All I can suggest is that Senator Faulkner has a creative imagination.

Senator Robert Ray —These are in sworn affidavits.

Senator HILL —Senator Ray, loudmouth from the back bench, would know as well as I do of the reputation of Mr McIntosh. I would have thought the last person in Australian public life to be leaking anything would be Malcolm McIntosh.

Senator Faulkner —Why did Moore-Wilton say it then?

The PRESIDENT —Order! Senator Faulkner, stop shouting. There is an appropriate time for asking supplementary questions or debating matters. Shouting across the chamber is not appropriate.

Senator HILL —In relation to Mr McIntosh, would he be qualified for the job? Of course he is qualified for the job—highly qualified for the job. He held a senior defence office in the UK, was head of the CSIRO, and held a senior defence office here. He would be well qualified for the job. Whether he is in line for the job I do not know, and I suggest to Senator Faulkner that he wait and see.

Senator FAULKNER —Madam President, I ask a supplementary question. How successful does the government believe the administration of the Department of Defence will be under a secretary who will be appointed for a six- to 12-month term, given the poisonous relationship that he will have with the head of the Prime Minister's department, not to mention the department he is charged with administering? Will Senator Hill now acknowledge—I quoted from an affidavit lodged with the court when I asked about this—that this was the reason that Mr Moore-Wilton told Mr Barratt—and I quote again—`McIntosh is playing a pernicious role in all of this'? How can the Department of Defence operate with this going on?

Senator HILL (Environment and Heritage) —We can all ask a question in this place based on press speculation.

Senator Faulkner —It's in an affidavit before the court.

Senator HILL —Yes, whose affidavit before the court?

Senator Faulkner —Mr Barratt's.

Senator HILL —Mr Barratt's affidavit. You do not think Mr Barratt has an interest in this matter, do you, Senator Faulkner?

Senator Faulkner —I'm sure he has an interest.

Senator HILL —Madam President, I am sorry, I should answer through you. So, okay, we learn that Senator Faulkner is not basing this on speculation but on a statement by Mr Barratt, who obviously has an interest in the matter. I suggest that Senator Faulkner just cool off for a while and that he wait and see who is appointed to the job. But what I am prepared to say is that Mr McIntosh is obvi ously well qualified for the job, and I would also say that Mr Max Moore-Wilton is doing a very good job as head of PM&C.