Senator BISHOP —My question is directed to the Assistant Treasurer. Will the minister advise the Senate how large the black economy is in Australia in terms of tax revenue forgone? Where does Australia rate in terms of its black economy compared to other OECD nations? Can the minister name an OECD nation which has a GST and a smaller black economy than Australia?

Senator KEMP (Assistant Treasurer) —Thank you for the question, Senator Bishop. Senator Bishop, it was a great pity that you were not—I think I am right in saying this—at the Senate estimates committee where Senator Cook asked some distinctly non-probing questions in relation to the black economy. It makes particularly interesting reading. Before you accepted that question, you should have really—

The PRESIDENT —Senator Kemp, direct your remarks to the chair.

Senator KEMP —Before that question was accepted, it would have been very advisable for Senator Bishop to closely read the transcript of that Senate estimates committee. I think the first point made was about the variety of estimates on the size of the black economy.

Senator Bishop —What is your estimate?

Senator KEMP —What is your estimate!

Senator Jacinta Collins —Well, what is it?

Senator KEMP —Oh! Senator Jacinta Collins has come into the debate. Oh, dear! Madam President, I am under acute pressure from over there, as you can hear, now that Senator Jacinta Collins has bought into this debate. The Senate estimates showed that there are a variety of estimates on the size of the cash economy, ranging between $5 and $15 billion. I advise Senator Bishop to read it closely on the basis of those particular estimates and how they were arrived at. There is no official estimate on the size of the economy.

Senator Jacinta Collins —So you have got no benchmark!

Senator KEMP —I am under acute pressure from Senator Jacinta Collins, Madam President. I am really under pressure here. It might help Senator Jacinta Collins if she listened to an answer rather than chanting and calling out.

Senator Jacinta Collins interjecting—

Senator KEMP —Here comes the chorus. The reason I urge Senator Bishop to read the Senate estimates Hansard —and I suspect, in relation to this question, that there may be some press people who wish to read it—is that what really happened was that Senator Cook made a goose of himself over this. What he was trying to establish was whether a broad based indirect tax would be more effective at tackling the cash economy than is the current system. Senator Bishop, I advise you to read very closely the evidence that was tendered to Senator Cook by the Secretary to the Treasury and others. In that you will find, I think, a pretty definitive answer to the incredibly lacklustre approach.

Senator Jacinta Collins —Do you remember it?

Senator KEMP —The question was: what is the official size of the black economy? I have indicated that there are a range of estimates and I have quoted figures. I said there is no official figure.

Opposition senators interjecting—

The PRESIDENT —Senator Kemp, just a moment. There have been interjections throughout this question which make it difficult for the minister to answer. The level of interjection at this stage is totally unacceptable.

Opposition senators interjecting—

The PRESIDENT —Order!

Senator KEMP —It is not actually difficult to answer the question; it is difficult to be heard because of the noise. The question was: what is the official estimate of the size of the cash economy? The answer was that there were a variety of estimates given. They are set out in detail in the Senate estimates Hansard . There is no official figure. The range that was given in the Hansard was between $5 billion and $15 billion.

Opposition senators interjecting—

Senator KEMP —That is what I said. No-one listens—that is the trouble. They are all yelling out. Senator Jacinta Collins is coming in hard and making an untelling point. That was stated, Senator. (Time expired)

Senator BISHOP —Madam President, I ask a supplementary question. On the basis that you have told us there are no official estimates of the size of the black economy, Minister, on what empirical evidence did the Prime Minister rely when he stated that a GST would recover $15 billion lost to the black economy? Is the minister aware that, when Canada introduced its GST, there was a huge increase in the black economy caused by bartering and by increased cash transactions?

Senator KEMP (Assistant Treasurer) —Again, this is such an ordinary question.

Senator Bolkus —Then why can't you answer it?

Senator KEMP —Do you know what the answer to the question was in Senate estimates? The answer was:

Senator Kemp —If you perhaps were less cute and read out the full quote, Senator, it might assist the committee.

The full quote was then read out. It was indicated that one estimate of the size of the cash economy was $15 billion, et cetera. That question was asked. Was it definitively answered? That is what I have to ask.

One thing we know is that the Labor Party did virtually nothing on this issue in its 13 years. Of course, there is an increasing fear in the Labor Party that the sort of tax reform we are bringing in is tackling a range of problems which the Labor Party were never prepared to tackle.