Senator MURRAY(3.29 p.m.) —I should commence my contribution by again declaring that I have an interest in trusts. Those of you who are avid readers of estimates—I doubt whether they number more than a few on each hand—would know that I have had an interest in pursuing these trusts and the issue of tax avoidance for some time. I think we should avoid in this debate taking either a winner or a loser approach. There are countless numbers of trusts which are managed properly and which conduct their business appropriately. It is, in my opinion, as foolish to hear Senator O'Chee defend all trusts as it is foolish for anyone else to attack all trusts.

Senator Bob Collins —I agree entirely.

Senator MURRAY —That is exactly what Senator Bob Collins was saying in interjection earlier. Whether it is a matter of family assets that are dealt with, or assets that are dealt with for death, estate planning or intestacy, or for commercial reasons, is irrelevant. Anyone who puts their assets and interests into a trust is seeking to maximise their own benefit and to minimise tax. The question is whether it is legal, legitimate and in the public interest. For countless numbers of trusts it is, but there are many, maybe countless numbers of trusts where it is not. That was, indeed, the point which I think Senator Bob Collins was making from the back bench, and that, I think, is the underlying thrust of Labor's attack.

Our approach in this is the fair go approach, which means that Australia deserves, in the public interest, for this area to be reviewed. Our concern is that the government, quite properly, through the Commissioner of Taxation and the Treasurer (Mr Costello), announced a thorough review of tax evasion, tax avoidance and excess tax minimisation. Our concern is that the Prime Minister (Mr Howard) has stepped into the middle of it and said, `Hang on! Don't worry about it. It's not going to go too far.' That is the inference we have drawn from his remarks.

Senator Ferguson —That's not what he said.

Senator MURRAY —I understand it may not be what he said, Senator Ferguson, but, as you are aware, perception is sometimes as damaging as reality. It is very important that the government come out and say unequivocally that they will not interfere with the tax commissioner's approach, that they will not interfere with the Treasurer's review, that the review will be thorough and that reform will result, because we are talking about $116 billion.

Tax reform and small business reform generally must focus on those areas which tempt small business and their compliant accountants to behave in a manner which may maximise their private interest but which is not in the public interest. It is to those miscreants that this review must be directed. To hear, quite frankly, a defence of all trusts as being untouchable is unacceptable and to attack all trusts is equally unacceptable. So I support the intention of Labor's motion. I think they are right to raise this in the public consciousness and to pursue it; and, incidentally, I think they are right to support the Treasurer and the tax commissioner, which is what they are doing, in asking for a thorough review which will result in reform so as to trap those who evade, avoid and minimise unduly.