Senator BOB COLLINS(3.17 p.m.) —I wish to address the answers given by the Minister for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Affairs, Senator Herron, during question time today, and in particular the personal explanation relating to an answer that was just provided by the new senator, Senator Lightfoot. I think I am correct in saying—although I have not followed all the proceedings of the chamber—that that was Senator Lightfoot's first contribution to the debate in this chamber as a senator from Western Australia. It was quite simply the most ignorant—

Senator Hill —I take a point of order, Madam Deputy President.

Senator BOB COLLINS —Are you going to stop me from speaking?

Senator Hill —This may be an interesting debate, but the time for that debate is not now. The time now is your opportunity to debate answers given by ministers during question time. Madam Deputy President, I suggest that you inform Senator Collins that he should comply with the standing orders.

Senator Faulkner —On the point of order, Madam Deputy President: Senator Cook asked Senator Herron a question and a supplementary question that went to the views of a Western Australian politician, who was identified as Senator Lightfoot, that Aborigines are the bottom colour of the civilised spectrum.

I can say on this point of order that, following the answer Senator Herron gave, we had a personal explanation from Senator Lightfoot. Senator Collins, in his contribution, is properly addressing both Senator Herron's answer to the question and the response to that answer that was given after question time by Senator Lightfoot.

Senator Cook's question was the third question asked by the opposition during question time. I believe the comments made by Senator Collins are absolutely in order. If Senator Hill had a modicum of decency or guts, on behalf of his own parliamentary party he would get up right now and dissociate his party and his government from Lightfoot.

Senator Campbell —Is this a point of order? On the point of order, Madam Deputy President: it is quite within the standing orders for Senator Collins to debate during taking note of answers the answer given by Senator Herron on that question which related to comments made—

Senator BOB COLLINS —Made by Senator Lightfoot.

Senator Campbell —No, that was not the question. It was a WA Liberal politician, because Senator Cook was so gutless that he did not mention Senator Lightfoot and he was so gutless that he asked the question before Senator Lightfoot had made his first speech.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT —Order! What is your point of order, Senator Campbell?

Senator Campbell —On the point of order, what Senator Collins cannot do under standing order 190—which was the standing order Senator Lightfoot used—is debate the matters. It is quite clear under standing order 190 that he cannot debate a personal explanation. He can debate the answer given by Senator Herron.

Senator BOB COLLINS —On the point of order, Madam Deputy President: I understand Senator Campbell's attempt not to have further debate on this matter at this point in reconciliation week with his new colleague—

Senator Campbell interjecting—

Senator BOB COLLINS —Oh, yes, it is. Senator Campbell is wrong, as a matter of fact, and I just wish to point that out to the chamber and that is why I rose. Senator Lightfoot, by name, was in fact specifically part of the supplementary question. The question involved remarks on Senator Lightfoot's Liberal views on the position of Aboriginal people in Australia as at 28 May 1997. The answer related directly to that and so did the further explanation Senator Lightfoot gave. So the question and answer directly related to Senator Lightfoot's views about Aboriginal people in Australia. Therefore, what I am saying is absolutely in order.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT —Order! It is in order for Senator Collins to debate the issue because, whilst Senator Lightfoot was not initially named, the question related to statements made by him. I am sure there is nothing in this that says that Senator Collins cannot debate the issues in the questions asked by—

Senator Hill —He should have asked for leave to debate the personal explanation.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT —Order! He is not debating the personal explanation. He is debating the question.

Senator Campbell —On a point of order: he took note of the answer and the personal explanation. I am saying he can go for the next five minutes on the answer, but he cannot talk about the personal explanation.

Senator Faulkner —What are you covering up?

Senator Campbell —I suggest Senator Faulkner gets the Senate's approval to alter standing order 190, which says that such matters cannot be debated. You should move a motion now to get the standing orders changed, but you sought to move to take note of his answer and the personal explanation. Go for your life on the answer but, under the standing orders, you cannot, unless you want to flout the rules—

Senator BOB COLLINS —He's wrong.

Senator Campbell —Go check the Hansard , Senator Collins. You are the old Hansard checker. You go and check it yourself, or go and check the tapes.

Senator BOB COLLINS —Shame on you, Robert, for trying to stop this.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT —Order! Senator Collins is quite able to refer to the answer because the answer was about Senator Lightfoot's comments, and I am sure that Senator Collins is going to do that.

Senator BOB COLLINS —In relation to Senator Lightfoot's views—

Senator Campbell —On a point of order, Madam Deputy President, can I please have a ruling on standing order 190, which says you cannot debate a point of a personal explanation?

Senator BOB COLLINS —Excuse me!

Senator Campbell —It is a point of order.

Senator BOB COLLINS —Three times?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT —Order! Senator Campbell, I have given a ruling as to what Senator Collins should be addressing his remarks to and I will listen to what he has to say.

Senator Faulkner —It doesn't suit you because you don't like what Lightfoot said.

Senator Campbell —I seek a ruling, Madam Deputy President, on a point of order. Do you allow or disallow Senator Collins to debate a point of a personal explanation under standing order 190? Yes or no?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT —I have given an answer, Senator Campbell, that Senator Collins will be able to address those issues that were raised in the question and the answer.

Senator BOB COLLINS —That's the ruling.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT —That is the answer, and it is the second or third time I have given it.

Senator BOB COLLINS —I am addressing myself to the question and answer given on the question of Senator Lightfoot's views on the position that Aboriginal people have in this nation today. I repeat again that in my 20 years in politics, in my 20 years as a member of parliament, I have never heard a more ignorant, ill-informed or offensive statement made by a member of the Australian Liberal Party.

I would point out that Senator Herron was a President of the Queensland Liberal Party for many years. The Queensland Liberal Party expelled, with a great deal of breast-beating and boasting, the honourable member for Oxley (Ms Hanson) from the membership of the party. As a lifetime member of the Labor Party, I know what an extreme step it is to take to expel a person from membership of a party, particularly for the Liberals. She was rightly expelled from the party for her statement.

Senator Lightfoot is a Liberal and now a sitting member of the Senate. Senator Lightfoot arrives here carrying a $460,000 pension from the Western Australian parliament with a seat in the Senate, and Pauline Hanson gets expelled! The minister for Aboriginal affairs says in defending him, `It's a broad church we've got in Australia. It's a democratic society and he's free to say anything he likes.' That is what the minister for Aboriginal affairs said.

Is it not extraordinary that, as it just happens—and I must say I was grateful to the Australian Financial Review for publishing this fascinating piece of Australian history yesterday—James Douglas, the 14th Earl of Morton and president of the Royal Society, was a greater liberal with more advanced thinking about the Aboriginal people of this country in 1768 than the Prime Minister (Mr Howard), his minister for Aboriginal affairs and, certainly, our new senator from Western Australia are in 1997? I will quote briefly from the extract of this fascinating advice given by the Earl of Morton to Captain James Cook on his way to Australia in the Endeavour. In relation to the native people of this country—the native people of this country, Senator Lightfoot—he said in part:

To have it still in view that shedding the blood of those people is a crime of the highest nature:- They are human creatures, the work of the same omnipotent Author, equally under his care with the most polished European; perhaps being less offensive, more entitled to his favour.

They are the natural, and in the strictest sense of the word, the legal possessors of the several Regions they inhabit. No European Nation has a right to occupy any part of their country, or settle among them without their voluntary consent. Conquest over such people can give no just title; because they could never be the Aggressors.

What a tragedy for Aboriginal Australia that that direction given to Captain James Cook was never given effect afterwards. But, I personally know seven 7,000 or 8,000 Australian Aboriginals, mostly living in Arnhem Land in the Top End, who are native Australians and who live traditional lifestyles.

When I first started to live among them 30 years ago, as an ignoramus then in respect of Aboriginal Australia, I was absolutely struck by the richness of their lifestyle, the complexity of their culture and their relationships, the beauty and complexity of their languages and the degree of family relationships that our society has long lost. I listened with fascination in my first contact with native Aboriginal Australians, thousands of whom are still living like that today, as Senator Herron full knows, as they pointed out parts of the landscape around them, identifying the people who owned it back four and five generations, all from memory.

Senator Lightfoot might be interested to know that Aboriginal people in native Australia living traditional lifestyles, as I said before, have a richness of culture second to none, a richness of culture which clearly the Western Australian senator, who has Aboriginal Australians living in this situation in his own state, is absolutely ignorant of.

I say this to Senator Robert Hill, and that is why I wanted to address it to Senator Hill. Senator Hill, you are supposed to be the leader of the Liberals in here. Why don't you investigate whether Senator Lightfoot should be expelled from membership of the Australian Liberal Party for saying something grossly more ignorant, ill-informed and offensive than anything the honourable member for Oxley has ever said?