Senator BOB COLLINS —My question is to the Minister for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Affairs. In your speech at the Australian National University on Friday you called on unemployed Aboriginal people to start small businesses as a way of solving their unemployment problems. You highlighted a number of programs that they should access including—and it was in your speech—the Business Advice for Rural Areas or BARA program. Were you aware when you made that speech that the Business Advice to Rural Areas scheme was in fact abolished by your government in the last budget and will in fact come to a halt completely in March next year when its current funding runs out?

Senator HERRON —Yes, I did say that; and I was aware, Senator Bob Collins. If you had watched Meet the Press yesterday you would have got an explanation which would have saved you getting up this afternoon and asking a question like that.

Senator Robert Ray —You are answerable here, not to Meet the Press .

The PRESIDENT —Order! Senator Herron! Do not answer questions directly across the chamber.

Senator HERRON —We frequently get asked questions from the other side about whether we have read newspapers or watched television so I think it is only fair that I should respond in that way. I thought if the opposition were alert they might have got the answer yesterday. Mr Ian Warden of the Canberra Times said the other day that the questions asked by the opposition in this chamber are so flat that he thinks all the people in the press gallery up there were wishing they were a bit more senior so that they could be in the other chamber and get the questions there. I see he is not present today so maybe he has been elevated. I was aware of the matter that Senator Bob Collins referred to and I will be discussing with the ATSIC board of commissioners when the new board meets ways of overcoming this particular problem. It is possible that we can finance and stimulate that through ATSIC itself.

In addition to that, and which Senator Bob Collins did not have the grace to ask about, I mentioned many other things in the Dame Enid Lyons Memorial Speech on Friday. I emphasised that the way forward for the indigenous community of this country is self-empowerment through economic independence. That can only come through small business enterprises. In travelling around Australia I have seen many examples of this throughout the country. The way forward for Aboriginal people is through their own business enterprises. Many of them, of course, have been successful. It is by this sort of mechanism that they can attain their independence and go beyond self-management to the stage of self-empowerment. They can then collectively and individually get away from a dependence on government handouts.

Senator BOB COLLINS —I have a supplementary question. Minister, the reason I am asking the question is that in fact I did watch what you said on Meet the Press last night. That is the reason I am asking the question. The BARA scheme was successful in creating 1,400 new jobs last year. On Meet the Press yesterday—I have the transcript in front of me—you said:

The decision to axe BARA was a decision made at the time by the ATSIC board.

You said that you were going to arrange for interim funding from the board of commissioners to see if you can get funds in the interim.

Minister, are you aware that the business advice in rural areas scheme has nothing whatever to do with ATSIC; that it is in fact a program which is administered by the Department of Primary Industries and Energy, and that it was in fact axed by the Department of Primary Industries and Energy and its minister? Are you seriously suggesting that, having taken $470 million, you are going to divert funds from ATSIC into DPIE's budget area to maintain the BARA funding which is in fact their program and not ATSIC's? The ATSIC board, Minister, had nothing whatever to do with the decision.

Senator HERRON —I was aware of that, as I said to Senator Bob Collins. But it is the thrust of what we are going to do through ATSIC.

Senator Bob Collins —You don't know what you are doing; that is the problem.

Senator HERRON —It is, Senator Collins. With respect, it is. After 13 years the opposition failed in this regard. It is hypocritical of them to get up and criticise what we are doing, which is a solution to the problems that are there. It is grossly hypocritical. They had 13 years to do something about this. When we come forward with solutions for these problems they have the hypocrisy to get up and criticise them. I would ask the opposition what their policy is to break away from what they did in the past and to try to get outside the problems which they created?