Senator MARGETTS(12.31 p.m.) —I seek leave to table some documents.

Senator Herron —I will need to see them.

Senator MARGETTS —One document is entitled `ATSIC 1996—The Ward System'; another one `ATSIC Regional Councils—Election 12 October 1996', produced by the Australian Electoral Commission; and another `ATSIC 1996 Regional Council Elections—Questions and Answers on the 1996 Regional Council Elections'. Obviously, I have not had a chance to fully read these documents. It would be extremely useful for us as senators to be able to look at them in time.

In relation to that, I ask that the minister make available the legal opinion and the basis upon which these assurances have been given to the Senate regarding the validity of the election and the decisions that the Senate is making today. The assurances have been based on some kind of legal opinion. It is extremely important that we know the basis of that legal opinion—so we know what kind of situation we have put ourselves in and, perhaps more importantly, what kind of situation we have put the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander community in as a result of the decisions we have made.

The CHAIRMAN —Is leave granted for Senator Margetts to table the documents? There being no objection, leave is granted.

Senator MARGETTS —My concern throughout this process is when many people recognise that there are problems in a system which has been imposed from above. It seems to be a system which was almost, in a way, set up to fail. It needs to have a mechanism by which people can go back and assess how it is doing. People should be assessing how it is doing if the whole system of ATSIC and ATSIC elections and ATSIC representation is meant to be serving the interests of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities.

Therefore, it seems to me most appropriate that, if there are problems in the system, then there needs to be some way by which you go back to the people who are being affected by that system to find out what is working and what is not working and how the system can change to meet the stated functions and the real needs of those communities it is meant to be serving. This cannot be done, in my opinion, as a result of a survey at the end of every three-year election to see how the elections went.

There needs to be, in my opinion and in the opinion of a number of people I have spoken to recently, a way of finding out from those people most affected what is working and what is not working. It would seem to me to require an independent, properly funded review that can take time to go into communities and allow communities to speak for themselves, to enable the traditional operations of decision making, especially in groups that do not necessarily get represented in all decisions that are made through the current system of ATSIC operation, such as women's groups, to take place. It would seem to me to be at least a two-phase process; firstly, to work out how to put such an inquiry together and, secondly, to provide sufficient resources and time for such a process to take place.

It is my intention as a result of the debate so far not to put an amendment at this stage because that would be pre-empting what communities want and how they might want such an inquiry or review to take place. It is my intention to contact as many groups as I can in the near future to get their ideas about how such an inquiry might take place. If we are serious as a Senate in dealing with the issues of provision of services in allowing Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities to move towards a greater level of self-determination, then making decisions from the top is simply compounding the problem.

I know that there are no simple answers to this but I do know that we have to spend a lot of time working out how we can go back and ask communities how they think they can have a say in how this process might be improved. It is the disempowerment that seems to be having a very great effect at the moment. As has been described to me in one particular instance, a small amount of money is provided to a group of ATSIC commissioners and they are told, `You must make a decision about where this small amount of money goes to.' So they talk, information is given, there are arguments from different groups, there is extra information and finally, through all of that process, a decision is made. Then the minister can say, `No.' That seems to be not recognised in its level of disempowerment. Many decisions are being made at the moment. A lot of them are about land issues. The disbursement of funds, the level of community participation and decision making and the level of self-determination are all very important decisions.

It seems to me that, if governments decide or even if we as a Senate decide how things should be done, we are forgetting that we should be doing our best to allow some process of real self-determination. As I say, it is my intention to write to groups, individuals and any interested people to find out what their ideas would be about how such a process could start, how it might be put together and how it might be effective in getting ideas about how this whole process could work better. There is no doubt that there are problems but it is my contention that we should be serious about finding out how we can make it better and not simply slash and burn from above to get some cheap political capital. That is the most distressing part of this whole venture today.