Senator BOB COLLINS(4.40 p.m.) —Before I defer to my learned friend Senator Cooney, I will chase this rabbit all the way down the burrow just to satisfy myself, because the law may well have moved on from the last time a mug like me looked at it. The minister made reference to his second reading speech. My understanding, the last time I looked, or the last time I talked to a judge, is that a court will take account of second reading speeches only when it needs to be guided on the provisions of the law. If a court is absolutely satisfied that the law as printed is clear, the second reading speech of the minister is just so much paper. Perhaps that practice has changed. Courts these days are finding implied rights for freedom of speech in the constitution which I cannot find, so they are more inventive than I am.

I take your point, Minister, that we are not talking about sacking the board, but we certainly are talking about disabling it for the period that the administrator is in office. For that reason, this provision concerns me. I will put an extreme hypothetical case of a fraud that has occurred in a regional office of ATSIC. It is beyond dispute that fraud has occurred. It involves, say, a million dollars, which triggers the minister's requirement to be satisfied. I guess it is a matter for political or moral judgment as to whether it is major fraud; nevertheless, fraud has occurred and the minister has acted lawfully by appointing an administrator.

In respect of an appeal to the judicial review process, surely it would be very difficult to get a court to overturn that decision, even if, on the reasonable judgment of somebody standing outside the process, the matter were confined to one office and not systemic in the organisation. Providing a fraud had occurred and the proposed provision complied with—there is no reference in this provision to `major' or `extreme' fraud—the legislation is satisfied. If you have satisfied the act, is it not very difficult to get any court to go beyond the decision of the minister and overturn it?