Ms MACKLIN (3:18 PM) —My question again is to the Minister for Education, Science and Training. As the minister is aware of the Phillips Curran report prepared for the education ministerial council, why did he fail to mention in his earlier answer today that this report concludes that the government's university changes mean there will be:

· Fewer HECS liable places per head of population

· Increased levels of debt aversion among disadvantaged groups due to increased fees

· No changes to student income support schemes, despite evidence of their deficiencies ...

When will the minister adopt Labor's policy to create 20,000 extra new university places, additional financial support for students and no increase in HECS fees?

Mrs Bronwyn Bishop —Mr Speaker, I rise on a point of order. Mr Speaker, I draw your attention to standing order 144. The latter part of that question is clearly debate and it is argumentative, and I would ask you to rule it out of order.

The SPEAKER —There are, as all members of the House know, a number of questions that are asked.

The SPEAKER —Does the member for Lowe have any interest in this comment or not? Let him note, in common with other members of the House, that there are frequently questions asked about standing order 144. There are a number of questions asked that include some degree of argument. In common with previous occupiers of the chair, that has been tolerated. Justice and latitude has been given on the matter of relevance.

Dr NELSON (Minister for Education, Science and Training) —In answer to the member for Jagajaga, the first thing that ought to be pointed out is that this government in its higher education policies is doing a number of things. Firstly, it is expanding the number of HECS places, including fully funding 25,000 marginally funded, overenrolled places, a policy now adopted by the Australian Labor Party. There are a further 6,500 to 7,000 additional places in the first five years.

Honourable members interjecting—

The SPEAKER —Tolerance has been given on standing orders 144 and 145, not on standing order 55—not by any occupier of the chair. The minister has the call.

Dr NELSON —In addition to that, unlike the Australian Labor Party, on this side of the parliament we believe that Australian citizens should at least have the same rights as foreign students who come to Australia. On this side of the parliament we actually believe that a student that gets 99.2 for year 12 is gifted and has done academically well, and if they do not get a HECS place then they ought to have the choice of taking up a fee-paying place, as does a student from Beijing or Jakarta. We strongly believe in that.

In addition to that, the government's package includes $161 million for scholarships for 25,000 students, to support their education and their accommodation costs scholarships. The Labor Party celebrates its proposed changes to income support arrangements: $125 million. In other words, students are $35 million worse off under Labor in terms of their support when they are at university.

The last thing that ought to be pointed out is that there has been no stronger advocate of deregulating universities than the shadow Treasurer, the member for Werriwa. For example, the member for Werriwa said in The Enabling State:

And in an address to the University of Western Sydney on 11 November 1999 he even named the universities that he thought ought to be fully deregulated with full fees.

An honourable member—Name them!

Dr NELSON —I suppose I could.

The SPEAKER —Order! The minister will address his remarks through the chair.

Dr NELSON —He actually went through and named them all, but he said:

He said:

Then he talked about different types of universities and he talked about `a group of internationally focused institutions'. He included Sydney University, Melbourne University, Adelaide University and the University of Western Australia, and—listen to this—he said:

He mentioned Queensland, Macquarie, Monash, Adelaide, Western Australia. It is rampant hypocrisy and opportunism for the opposition now. Having had policy courage when he was on the back bench saying what he thought ought to really happen, the member for Werriwa, the shadow Treasurer, now comes onto the front bench and he is captive to the crippling ideologues of the left.

Ms Macklin —Mr Speaker, I seek leave to table the summary of the Philips Curran report that shows that the government's package will reduce student access—

The SPEAKER —Order! The member for Jagajaga will resume her seat.

Leave not granted.