Mr SCIACCA (10:07 PM) —I rise to support the motion moved by the Prime Minister and seconded by the Leader of the Opposition. I do so on the basis that, as a former Minister for Veterans' Affairs, I am well aware of the sacrifices that are made by people from the defence forces. Arguably, many will say that probably the Australian tradition, the very identity of an Australian, was born on the hills of Gallipoli back in 1915. The present soldiers, the people from the Defence Force that are in East Timor as part of the peacekeeping force, will no doubt follow in that fine tradition.

I have a great deal of respect for our defence forces and I do not think this debate is one where the government can take credit. We have speakers saying how great the Prime Minister is and how great the foreign affairs minister is, but the reality is that we have a very dangerous situation on our hands and our Australian defence personnel have been asked to serve and, as always, when asked to serve, they are doing just that. I am sure they carry the wishes of not only the people in this House—I am sure unanimously—but the people of Australia. In terms of whether they should have been there beforehand or whatever I think that is of little consequence. I agree with the Leader of the Opposition when he said that the situation leading up to the referendum could have been dealt with much more appropriately and that perhaps many lives could have been saved.

I do not want to dwell on that but I want to talk about a number of other matters which I think are of great importance. I believe these latest events over the last couple of weeks will probably serve to remind Australians that we are very much alone in this part of the world in many respects. In the past, we have been seen as a large, wealthy and underpopulated country. Our region is in fact overpopulated, poverty is rife and it is unstable politically, as events have shown. As I see it, we need to take a salutary lesson as to what has happened now. Of course, we wish our defence forces well. Of course, we know that they are brave and that they will carry on the tradition of the original Anzacs, and we hope and pray that they will not be involved in any confrontation where any of them get injured or indeed lose their lives.

It is also terrific to know that there are other countries around the world that are part of this force. During the debate, the Treasurer mentioned a number of countries that are contributing defence forces to the international peacekeeping force and I was reminded—and I am quite proud to say this—that the Italians, people from my old country, have contributed. They are sending about 250 paratroopers, quite an elite force as I understand it, from Pisa, together with 400 medical and other support staff. So I thank them for that. As I said, as a former Minister for Veterans' Affairs it gives me a great deal of pleasure to know that the country in which I was born—and which during World War II was on the other side—is there with us, shoulder by shoulder.

This brings to mind the importance of the size of our country as it is today, the number of people we have in it and the number of people that, because of our size, we are able to support as a defence force. We have about 50,000 full-time defence personnel, yet there are countries around us, including Indonesia, whose defence forces number in the hundreds of thousands. It stands to reason that, because there have been wars in the past, there will always be wars in the future. There will be those who will eye us off and say, `Australians think they are safe. They are happy and it is a peaceful country.' It is all of that but will it be like that in the future if we maintain our population at the same levels?

I want to say a few words following upon a seminal speech, I believe, that the Leader of the Opposition gave in South Australia only last Friday. He spoke about the importance of defence and its link to policies of population. I will quote from that excellent speech because I think he says it all, and quite eloquently. He says:

The second issue I want to cover today is the contribution of population policy to a stronger national defence.

In the wake of events in Timor, we will in the months and years to come need to embark on a re-appraisal of Australian foreign and defence policy.

And I am here to argue that we should do so with one overriding priority before us: the concept of self-reliance.

Self-reliance in defence is a hardy perennial for Australia, but for all that, we still don't seem to have the necessary political consensus around it. This ties back to population policy in two ways: firstly, the contribution of a higher population to a stronger defence generally; and secondly, the need to have a significant population in Northern Australia.

On the first issue, I note the comments of Australian Defence Force Chief—Admiral Chris Barrie—who said recently, and I quote:

"One resource we are short of is people . . . We are trying to mount security with 50,000 full-time people roughly. That is a big ask in a country this size . . . By 2050 the population of Australia will be only 22 million . . . and there will be more grey people than they will be young people."

The Leader of the Opposition goes on to say:

I think these comments deserve some weight—coming as they do from the Chief of the Defence Force. An aging population means many things, but one of the most troubling is the declining population base fit for military service.

On the issue of Northern Australia, we are fortunate that during Labor's most recent period in office, the emphasis on defence self-reliance saw us move much of our defence capability to Northern Australia.

The fact that we have been able to mount and lead a peacekeeping operation from Darwin depends entirely on that decision.

I said in one of my earlier population speeches that we must always keep before us the inappropriateness of our population clinging to the coastline, as if looking for the first boat out. Similarly, the relative underpopulation of our north is not a sustainable prospect when it comes to defending this nation.

Let me say I also believe that the population aspects of defence must be accompanied by an improved focus of the resourcing of defence. As I said earlier, the crisis in Timor must serve to remind us all of the importance of the public sector to national investment, rather than Peter Costello's view that a surplus is only ever an opportunity for tax cuts.

He then goes on to say at the end of this session:

I want to flag here today that these recent developments have elevated in my mind the importance of the defence arguments in favour of a comprehensive Australian population policy, and made it more important than ever that we engage with this debate now.

This is a perfect opportunity for the public of Australia to look at whether we should be increasing our population in the years to come so that we will have sufficient young people here—not next year or the year after but in the next 50 years—to adequately defend this country and make it grow with the promise it has. That may well require a more robust immigration program, which I personally support. It may well also include examining family services to see whether there is some way that we can improve fertility rates. I am not 100 per cent sure of how we could do that. However, I am sure that the shadow minister for family and community services, my colleague Wayne Swan, will come up with some ideas in that regard. I believe that now is the time to bring this debate out into the community to let people know that once and for all we are no longer able to say we are as safe as we were before.

In this last minute or so, I want to say in my capacity as shadow minister for immigration that I am currently very happy with the efforts of the government, particular the Minister for Immigration and Multicultural Affairs, regarding the processes that have been put in place to bring some of these people to Australia and give them safe haven. At this time, all requests have been met, looked at compassionately and dealt with using a great deal of expeditious handling. I commend the government for it. Given that there will be many more of these requests, I hope that the government will continue in this way.

I wholeheartedly support the motion. I wish our Defence personnel serving in East Timor well. I hope that they all come back. I know that they will continue in the great tradition of the Anzacs and that they are people who will do their job to the best of their ability.