Mr PRICE(4.45 p.m.) —It is a pleasure to participate in this matter of public importance. I thought I would start by refer ring to some of the comments made by the Minister for Schools, Vocational Education and Training (Dr Kemp). First, he accuses us on this side of the House of not being concerned about the 30 per cent of students who are dropping out before year 12. But what he has failed to say is that in 1983, under his former government, 70 per cent of students were dropping out. In fact, only a third of students were going on to years 11 and 12. We increased that under Labor.

Mr Bartlett —Because they can't get jobs.

Mr PRICE —What a lot of rubbish! If the minister is saying we were not concerned about the 30 per cent of students dropping out, why wasn't he concerned about the 60 per cent? He then went on to denigrate the contribution of Ross Free, the former member for Lindsay, to higher education. I have said in this House before, but let me repeat it, that a group of western suburbs federal members got together and started pushing for a University of Western Sydney. The chairman of that group of western suburbs members was Ross Free, the former member for Lindsay, and I was the secretary of that group.

There were a lot of twists and turns in that fight but, at the end of the day, we overcame considerable resistance and achieved the establishment of Chifley University, as it was then called—regrettably, the incoming Liberal state government changed that name—on behalf of the people of western Sydney. Why? Because we felt that ordinary people ought to have the right for their children, if they had the desire and if they had the motivation, to aspire to undertake a university course. We have always believed that people in western Sydney and particularly our young people are every bit as good as people from everywhere else. That is why Ross Free was chairman of that committee that fought for the University of Western Sydney.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr Nehl) —Order! The honourable member will resume his seat. I suggest to the member for Grayndler that he observe standing order 57.

Mr PRICE —That is what we fought for, and we succeeded against the odds. I think it is very ungracious, if not slanderous, to denigrate the contribution that Ross Free made to that fight to establish the University of Western Sydney. Let me go one step further. I have said in this House that it has always been a disappointment to me that we did not get the main campus at Blacktown. It went to the city of Penrith.

Mr Latham —Why is that?

Mr PRICE —Of course, because Ross was arguing for it, together with Ron Mulock and Peter Anderson, and they won the day. As a result of that, Penrith City Council likes to call itself—and quite rightly—a university city. For the minister opposite to denigrate Ross Free and his contribution to the University of Western Sydney is malicious, unfortunate and totally inaccurate.

Just as I said on this side of the House about western suburbs members that we believe that our people should be given the right and opportunity to go to universities, I thought it was interesting to read the comments of the honourable member for Herbert, Mr Peter Lindsay. I think he is really revealing the true agenda of the minister and the true agenda of the Liberal Party—perhaps even the true agenda of the Liberal candidate in the electorate of Lindsay. Let me read out to you this comment from the Townsville Bulletin:

The rich are smarter than the poor and they have smarter children to boot, according to Member for Herbert, Peter Lindsay.

Mr Lindsay said the relatively high proportion of wealthy students in universities was a reflection of their higher intelligence rather than better opportunities.

When given a chance to correct the record, the article went on:

. . . Mr Lindsay said he stood by his comments . . . "Well, it's just the truth of the matter. I do stand by what I said and I am perfectly entitled to that view."

That has not been repudiated by the Prime Minister (Mr Howard) and has not been repudiated by the minister. The only person who has tried to dissociate himself from those comments is the Leader of the Opposition (Mr Beazley), who has said that it is terrible, and I agree.

What we are really saying is that in the enrolment in the University of Western Sydney—where more than two-thirds of the students come from western Sydney—those students are less intelligent and that the future generations of people studying at school do not deserve to have a place in a university if they come from St Clair, if they come from Werrington, if they come from Claremont Meadows, if they come from Cambridge Park or if they come from Penrith. They do not belong in the universities of this country because they are not wealthy, they are not rich and they are not intelligent. Of course I find these remarks offensive. But the minister has not repudiated them. Obviously he has seen the remarks, but just like the Prime Minister he has not dissociated himself from them. I am not aware that Jackie Kelly, the former member for Lindsay, has dissociated herself from those remarks either.

I want to make it clear that we on this side of the House do not subscribe to that view of universities at all. After all, over the 13 years of our government, we increased the number of students going to universities from 350,000 to 630,000—a huge increase. In my electorate and in the electorate of Lindsay, you saw a lot of working-class families that you think non-rich and unintelligent having a son or a daughter going to a university for the first time, and more often than not it was the University of Western Sydney.

What you are doing with your changes to education is to freeze these people out. Get back to the good old days when, if you came from the North Shore or if you came from the eastern suburbs of Sydney, you filled the universities. And, just in case you might not get through with a sufficient TER, mummy and daddy can buy your way in under you. You get a second chance if you come from a wealthy family, but not a poor family. You do not even believe that they should be in universities. What do you think will happen to the participation rate if you lower the amount when you first pay HECS from $28,000 to $20,000 or if you increase the HECS charges?

At least when we went through a difficult debate in the community about putting on the HECS charge, we turned every dollar back to expanding places in the universities to make sure that people could aspire to it. Even with this great expansion of universities, even with Ross Free and others fighting to establish the University of Western Sydney, we still have only eight places per thousand in the western suburbs. The rest of Sydney has 32. We have never believed that we could ever get to 32. We did not even want a fair share; we just wanted a reasonable bite.

By increasing the HECS charges, you will send a message out like the message that Jackie Kelly gave at Emmaus High School when I was sitting in the audience: `You shouldn't be aspiring to university. After all, a third of you are going to be unemployed. That is reality.'

Dr Kemp —She did not say that.

Mr PRICE —I was there! I was at the school. That was when the Patricia Tully Hall was being commissioned. I was back there for the graduation. They were horrified at what was said. Jackie was saying that a third of all high school students in the electorate of Lindsay are facing unemployment. That is what she said. Clearly, with unemployment increasing, she is dead right.

If any elector in the electorate of Lindsay has any concerns about who is standing behind young people in their aspiration for a university, it is clear that the former member, Ross Free, has the track record. He was instrumental in the fight to get the university established. The only thing Jackie Kelly has been capable of doing is to deliver cuts to the university. (Time expired)

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr Nehl) —Before I call the member for Macquarie, I would suggest that people on both sides calm down. We might hear the member for Macquarie with a little more quiet than we had for other speakers.