Senator PATTERSON --Madam Chairman, I just wanted to say before I started that at a previous estimates committee hearing I mentioned that sometimes estimates was a lonely experience for senators rather than the role that it was supposed to play and I suggested that we have more briefings. The department has done that when I have asked, with the minister's approval.

We have also put a lot of questions on notice and the department has responded to those. It means that the time we will spend in asking questions of the department will be very much less. In fact, it is hours less than last time. I just wanted to say thank you to the department for that.

CHAIRMAN --And thank you to you, Senator Patterson. I always find you a most reasonable senator.

Senator PATTERSON --You might not say that after we get to Social Security. I will remind you of that this afternoon.

CHAIRMAN --I know you are always reasonable!

Senator PATTERSON --I want to ask about home and community care and about the cut. Has there been a two per cent cut in the 1993 budget in HACC?

Mr Cole --The growth rate is going to be two percentage points lower than last year. Rather than eight per cent real, it is going to be six per cent real.

Senator PATTERSON --Does that have a doubling effect because the states match that money dollar for dollar?

Mr Griew --The effect is almost double but not quite because the states provide approximately 40 per cent of HACC funds to 60 per cent from the Commonwealth. The actual amount will depend on the take-up from the states.

Senator PATTERSON --On page 244 of the program performance statement you say:

Since the inception of the HACC Program in 1985, expenditure has increased by over 270%

Does this not refer to HACC overall?

Mr Griew --I believe the 270 per cent relates to Commonwealth expenditure.

Senator PATTERSON --You believe?

Ms Murnane --It does, Senator.

Mr Griew --It does, yes.

Senator PATTERSON --Is it possible to calculate the increase in HACC for the aged over this period?

Mr Griew --Yes, it is.

Senator PATTERSON --Have you got that figure?

Mr Griew --I do not have it in front of me, no.

Senator PATTERSON --Could you take that on notice and give us that figure?

Mr Griew --I should say that it will rely on an assumption about the proportion of HACC expenditure for the aged at the inception of the program.

Senator PATTERSON --I understand that. Given that well under 50 per cent of the target population access HACC services each month, and that the size of the target population is increasing every year, what effect will the two consecutive reductions in the real rate of growth in HACC funding have on achieving the objectives of the subprogram?

Mr Griew --There are two factors that come into play there. One is the rate of growth that the state governments are able to provide within their budgetary constraints anyway so that, if the states were not going to match eight per cent real, then the fact that the Commonwealth might have put up eight per cent real growth would have been unnecessary anyway. The other point to make is that six per cent real is still very strong real growth in a program like this.

Senator PATTERSON --But does it match the increase in population? At what rate is the over-80 population increasing in Australia?

Mr Griew --It is approximately at the same rate as the growth in the program.

Senator PATTERSON --No, the above 80-year-old age group, at what rate are they increasing in the population?

Mr Griew --It is about five per cent; the above 70 group is about five per cent.

Senator PATTERSON --And what is the increase of the Australian population in general?

Mr Griew --It is a bit over one per cent.

Senator PATTERSON --So it is a much greater increase?

Mr Griew --That is right, but still within the same kind of parameter as the real growth rate in HACC.

Senator PATTERSON --Are the states matching the HACC funding? Are there any states that are not matching their HACC funding?

Mr Griew --There are states that are not matching the HACC funding.

Senator PATTERSON --Which states?

Mr Griew --I would have to take that on notice.

Senator PATTERSON --You can take that on notice and give it to us by state and how well they match or otherwise.

Mr Griew --Yes.