Senator BISHOP —I have got some questions on Employment National, but I thought they would be in Australian government employment. Are they here or are they better done in DEETYA?

Mr Shergold —Senator, they are probably better done in DEETYA.

Senator Hill —I think they are in PM&C as well.

Senator BISHOP —The questions go to the structure of Employment National and these other companies set up that are a part—

Mr Shergold —No, that is definitely, Senator, a question for DEETYA.

Senator BISHOP —I have no further questions.

Senator MACKAY —I have got a couple. Have DEETYA or Employment National sought any advice from the department?

Mr Shergold —On what, Senator?

Senator MACKAY —On this issue.

Mr Shergold —On what issue?

Senator MACKAY —On the structure of Employment National.

Mr Shergold —On the corporate structure of Employment National?

Senator MACKAY —Firstly, on the corporate structure of Employment National; secondly, any advice with regard to transfer/redundancies; thirdly, any advice with regard to AWA establishment—anything.

Dr Shergold —We have an involvement in terms of the issue of the transmission of APS awards and agreements.

Senator MACKAY —Have either DEETYA or Employment National asked you with regard to advice on the transmission?

Ms Campbell —We have certainly had discussions with both DEETYA and Employment National in relation to the transmission of APS awards and APS agreements.

Senator MACKAY —What was the nature of those discussions?

Ms Campbell —They have taken place over quite a number of months, probably before there was Employment National and the PEPE task force, and the announcement by Minister Vanstone in, I think, December 1996 about the package of transitional provisions that would apply to staff transferring across from the CES network into the new corporatised agency that is now called Employment National.

Senator MACKAY —What about anything over the last couple of months?

Ms Campbell —As you would be aware, there are a number of Federal Court applications pending lodged by the CPSU, Employment National and Employment National Administration, and also the Commonwealth in respect of one matter. All of those issues have been joined together, so there has been a number of discussions and exchanges of correspondence and so forth in preparation for the hearing dates which are scheduled to begin later on this month.

Senator MACKAY —What was the nature of those discussions?

Ms Campbell —I suppose if I were to put it generally it was what was the CPSU's application; what were ENA's applications; what were the Commonwealth's applications; and how were we going to deal with them. In a sense it was what are the ways in which these hearings are being scheduled and how are the submissions going to be dealt with.

Senator MACKAY —What advice did the department provide to DEETYA and Employment National?

Dr Shergold —Senator, I think that would be inappropriate because of a Federal Court case, but not the one we have been talking about until now.

Senator MACKAY —I suppose you have a few on the go, haven't you?

Dr Shergold —The advice we are preparing is in terms of hearings that are scheduled before the AIRC and the Federal Court later this month.

Senator MACKAY —Can you advise me of anything that was discussed outside of that?

Ms Campbell —There have been some issues—I probably need to take it on notice in terms of other contacts—around the way in which transferring staff from the CES network into Employment National Administration were to access the guarantee in respect of long service leave that we provided to Employment National Administration, and the making of a regulation to allow them to continue to access that.

There were some discussions about the transferring arrangements, if I can put it that way, in terms of the transfer provisions in relation to the use of 81C under the Public Service Act, although that is principally the responsibility of the Public Service Commission, but we did have some interest in it in terms of the way in which it was worded as it impacted on the transmission of business issue in the Federal Court applications.

Senator MACKAY —What particular aspect of the transferring arrangements was the subject of discussion?

Ms Campbell —It was the wording of the actual instrument that would be used to transfer the staff across that I was involved in discussions on.

Senator MACKAY —To what end?

Ms Campbell —To see how it was worded, as to whether or not there was a possible transmission of business from the CS network to the Job Network to Employment National Administration. It was literally the construction of the clause that went into the instrument.

Senator MACKAY —To determine what the transfer arrangements ought to be, so the examination of the clause was on the basis of what the transfer arrangements ought to be and what responsibilities there were therefore there for DEETYA.

Ms Campbell —I will put it this way: under 81C, the Prime Minister issues a certificate and the commissioner enacts, on the basis of that certificate, an instrument that literally has the list of all the staff who are going across. We are interested in the wording of how they were saying what the business was that they had been doing in the CES network and what the business was that they were going to be doing in the new Employment National Administration.

Senator MACKAY —To determine whether there was a commonality?

Ms Campbell —Just to give effect to the provisions of 81C.

Senator MACKAY —What was the view at the end, after the examination of the clause?

Dr Shergold —I must say I become nervous when I see this line of questioning develop because it is becoming clear to me that my officer is being led to give answers which are, in fact, relevant to the case that is being prepared for presentation before the Federal Court later this month.

Senator Hill —That would be unwise. Mr Chairman, are you planning to pause for supper?

ACTING CHAIR —We will take a break at 10 o'clock. Senator Mackay?

Senator MACKAY —I have finished.

ACTING CHAIR —That completes program 2, subprogram 2.1. As there are no questions on subprograms 2.2 and 2.3, the officers may go. Thank you for your attendance here today. When we come back from the break we will be on program 3.

Senator Hill —Are there any programs further down upon which there are no questions so that people can go home?

Senator MACKAY —No. There are questions on all of them.

ACTING CHAIR —What about TUTA, 4.3?

Senator MACKAY —No, there are no questions for that.

ACTING CHAIR —Officers on 4.3 are not required. Let me run down the programs. Are there questions on 3.1, 3,2, 3,4, 4.1 and 4.2?

Senator MACKAY —Yes.

ACTING CHAIR —Are there questions on maritime, 5.1 and 5.2?

Senator O'BRIEN —There are questions on 5.2 that cannot be answered because the officer is not available until Friday so they could be put on notice. I suspect we will not reach 5.1 tonight. What time are we going to?

ACTING CHAIR —We are going to 11.30 p.m., so the Chair informed me.

Senator O'BRIEN —I cannot guarantee that we will not but it is unlikely we will reach that.

ACTING CHAIR —We will see how we go in the next half hour. Thank you.