CHAIR (Senator Fisher) —I declare open this further public hearing of the Senate Select Committee on National Broadband Network. Firstly, we welcome Ms Chellew from the Indigenous Remote Communications Association. The evidence that you give to the committee is public. If you wish at any stage to give evidence in camera you may make a request of the committee to consider doing so. The evidence that you give today is protected by parliamentary privilege and it can be a contempt of the Senate for parties to attempt to influence or otherwise improperly pressure witnesses in respect of evidence given before the committee. It can also be a contempt of the Senate to provide evidence to the committee that is false and misleading. If at any stage you wish to object to answering any of the questions that I or any of my colleagues might put to you, you are able to do so, but we will ask you to state the grounds upon which you are objecting to answering the question and then we will consider your request. Thank you for your submission. If you wish to change or vary your submission in any way please say so. Would you like to make a brief opening statement?

Ms Chellew —I would like to give a precis of the submission and then add a little to that from my own experience, because the person who prepared the submission is not the one delivering it, but I am speaking on their behalf. I will start with a brief statement of the overall thrust of what we would like to present to the Senate.

In addressing the issue of the national broadband network IRCA will be very pleased to make the statement that the rollout of broadband is a vital provision to remote Australia, which has been described in the media as being the failed state of Australia. The lack of a provision of broadband could lead to a greater digital divide for those already very disadvantaged in the community. There are issues of equity and access attached to the lack of provision to this two per cent of the nation.

I did not contribute to this submission, but I would like to give a bit of my background and that of the other people who have provided advice on this submission. I have worked for seven years with an Indigenous youth organisation setting up the social networking side, an internet cafe funded under the TAPRIC initiative back in early 2000, and a remote youth multimedia program that has visited 30 communities in remote central Australia. I can speak from the experience of seeing the effect of that on young people in those remote communities, and the huge and positive impact that it had on even people such as petrol sniffers who have put down their cans to participate in using tools in which they have an interest and an affinity. They do not experience any sense of lack of advantage in that way because they become content rich to the internet with their stories, history and authority over the land in which they live.

The other people who have contributed to this are Rita Cattoni, who is now the manager of Indigenous Community Television, but when she wrote this submission she was the previous IRCA manager. She had also been the manager of Warlpiri Media Association in the very remote Northern Territory and had held that position for a number of years working with the Warlpiri people as they created their own media content and experienced the provision of broadband in that area. She was able to observe the effect of that on them.

Also, Daniel Featherstone, who is the manager of Ngaanyatjarra Media out in very central and remote Western Australia. He has experience in setting up 11 telecentres in remote Western Australia and has played a role in talking with the Western Australian government and their participation in a very innovative and successful project on those communities. Evan Wyatt is the technical support person for the Torres Strait Islands and top end North Queensland and Northern Territory in delivering the IRRR rollout. That is the RIBS broadcasting rollout of new equipment to update that to remote providers.

IRCA serves remote media associations, of which there are now eight in remote Australia. They are in Western Australia up in PAKAM, which is the Pilbara and Kimberley region; NG Media, which is Ngaanyatjarra Media; PAW Media, which is Pintubi, Anmatjerre and Warlpiri Media in western Northern Territory; TEABBA, which is at the top of the Northern Territory; QRAMAC, which has recently been launched in Queensland, and TSIMA in the Torres Strait Islands. Those remote associations serve approximately 150 communities where there are RIBS broadcasting stations on the ground with remote broadcasters delivering often the only communication service to their community and to communities where very often there are no landline phones to the people that live there at all, which is another issue.

CHAIR —We will have questions of you, if that assists you.

Ms Chellew —Are you happy for me to roll through my notes?

CHAIR —If you prefer to do that, but we will still ask you some questions.

Ms Chellew —I would like to go back to the experience that I have had with remote people using broadband. The findings of the young people that were sent out on these programs to work with remote communities found that there was very high engagement by young people in using computers, cameras and ICT generally. The programs were hugely successful and led to the re-engagement of young people with school on their communities. The teachers, in fact, were very interested in what they saw and in some cases communities looked to purchase laptops and so on to engage those program activities into the school.

Senator STERLE —Would it be possible to ask questions as we are going?

CHAIR —That might be a good idea, if you are happy with that.

Ms Chellew —That is fine.

Senator STERLE —I would like to go back to what you were talking about with the reduction in petrol sniffing because of access to communications. Do you have any figures for the communities and states?

Ms Chellew —At Docker River, for example, there was a very large petrol sniffing problem at the time and when the Deadly Mob youth media team went in there most of those young people were engaged in making films and using computers. They participated until 9 pm at night. They could not get rid of them because they were so connected to the activities that they were doing.

Senator STERLE —That stretched in the western desert area up there with the Ngaanyatjarra people.

Ms Chellew —Yes.

Senator STERLE —I was up there not long ago. They have their brand-new satellite and all their computers. It would be very helpful if you have got access to those figures if you could table them for the committee.

Ms Chellew —Yes. The other experience which is not so much remote is in Alice Springs itself with the internet cafe at Gap Youth Centre that we set up there with 16 computers on broadband. We had young people just running off the buses to the door and five local schools booking us eagerly to enable their young people to have access to computers on high speed, because at the time they had little access, all kinds of blockages, slow connectivity and so on. We had high connectivity and the young people from late primary to secondary were extremely engaged in producing remarkable work very quickly.

Senator STERLE —That is fantastic. Once again, with the re-engagement with the schools because of the advent of communications, if you have any figures around that it would be helpful if the committee could be supplied with that.

Ms Chellew —I will get them for you.

Senator MINCHIN —Do you have any evidence, either anecdotal or statistical about the sustainment of this interest in ICT, film and so on, that keeps kids away from destructive activity? In other words, often you get a phenomenon were it is exciting and stimulating for a couple of days and then they go back to the bad habits.

Ms Chellew —With the Deadly Mob program not only do the young people create content out bush, but in many cases they were not actually able to use the news broadband. They did not have it out there. They were to create the content. But when the community had approved all the little film clips, posters and whatever they had made, these were later put on the Deadly Mob website under their community webpage approved by the community and then people like the library in Alice Springs and a number of communities would then facilitate access to those people to view their content over and over again. I have had parents walk in off the street to the Deadly Mob office saying, ‘We are so pleased with this program. We are so proud of our young Johnny who has created this movie. We are taking it to IAD and we are going to translate this film into language.’ There was a real sense of creating social capital that could be observed over and over again on the internet. The Deadly Mob site would sometimes get young people come into the internet cafe and they would spend hours playing every little video, listening to all the stories, and just seeing stories of like-minded individuals telling their story—all kinds of stories. It was an extremely positive experience for them and led to a sense of affirmation and recognition—important things for anybody really. But for people that have been denied a lot of that this gives an instant experience of that.

I have seen some very positive things. I cannot emphasise the affinity of Aboriginal people for tools and for spatial skills. For example, a three-year-old was in my office and was shown by one of my assistants how to get into Microsoft paint on a computer. She was shown once. The next day she got into paint by herself. She clicks the start button, accessories, paint and she was in. We see an affinity for the tools over and over again. People often make the mistake of thinking that people need to learn to read and write before they are given computers, but computers are a tool for literacy.

One of the things that I would like to say is that with all these RIBS remote broadcasting stations in 150 communities Australia-wide there is an opportunity, like with Ngaanyatjara Media, along with the remote media, the radio, and what used to be also video production, to aggregate IT and community access to broadband and computers. This could be a very powerful way for the government to be able to provide services, education, health and advice on political information that they need to make choices. Often Aboriginal people in remote communities have no idea how they are being governed or what is going on. Political information about how you are governed is taught at Year 8 level of school and many people have not been to Year 8. The radio and broadband are ways that this kind of lack of information provision, which is a right, can be addressed.

Senator MINCHIN —We have heard a lot about the lack of English skills in some of these more remote communities with the kids, but are you saying that is not an impediment to their capacity to really get into this?

Ms Chellew —No, that is right. It is not.

Senator MINCHIN —Do you think it helps them?

Ms Chellew —Yes. Computers, the internet, multimedia film and radio are audiovisual. They bypass the text barrier. Aboriginal people are advantaged to have an international community dying to hear their stories. There are masses of tourists coming through Alice Springs and Darwin wanting to connect in some meaningful way with Aboriginal people. There is a lot of wonderful knowledge of the land. For example, just recently at the Art at the Heart conference that was held in Alice Springs some key Ngangkaris and senior Aboriginal ladies got up to speak. It was reported by another woman that Kathleen Wallace knows 150 words for wind in Arrernte. The detailed knowledge and eloquence of the Australian countryside that Aboriginal people have shocked everyone. Their huge sense of wellbeing comes from being on their own country.

When I first came to Alice Springs I had no idea that there were so many Aboriginal languages. I thought there was one. There were approximately 300 Aboriginal languages with 50 now still being spoken. These languages are being spoken in these remote communities that we are talking about with the broadband now. There are opportunities here to empower these people and allow them to use the media tools to protect and preserve their culture, to lead to their own sense of cultural safety, which would lessen their angst and dissatisfaction with the Australian government, and would lead quite cheaply to a greater sense of wellbeing and self-determination.

CHAIR —You referred to the spatial ability of Indigenous children. Are you suggesting that there is a difference in terms of the learning ability or the capacity of Indigenous children versus others that might mean that there is a particular advantage in providing Aboriginal children with that?

Ms Chellew —That is right, yes. I am not an expert on that. I am just observing.

CHAIR —Are you able to point us to where that sort of evidence might be provided? Those people who have written your submission have identified it, but do not provide us with an answer. In item 4.6 your submission talks about selection criteria and it talks properly about the criteria for selecting the national broadband network in the broad. It states:

One of the issues might be that a particular population or community might argue and demonstrate particular need or capacity to benefit from the national broadband network. If you are able to bolster that by saying, for example, that Indigenous populations can better benefit from access—

Ms Chellew —I can give you an example that gives some validity to that. Over in Canada there is such a thing as the Sunchild Cyber School. I am not sure what state it is in. They are using an Elluminate online session room to deliver first primary training to remote Indigenous communities within that state in Canada. It was so successful in engaging those young children that they had to develop a secondary curriculum and now they have had to go on to develop a tertiary curriculum because the young people have just eaten it up. They have reinvented themselves online. They chat to each other. They have learnt to type. They can show pictures. They can show PowerPoint. They can look at websites together and collaboratively access highly competent teachers who do not have to leave Toronto or wherever they live to teach these Indigenous children.

CHAIR —If you can point us to some expert opinion that, in your view, may demonstrates that Indigenous populations may better benefit from access to the national broadband network than some other populations or communities that may assist your cause and the committee would consider that evidence.

Ms Chellew —The Flexible Learning Framework, which is government funded, would have lots of examples of huge success themselves using tools with remote communities. I would refer you to my colleague Georgina Nou, who is a double degree teacher and has been researching on line pedagogy of learning. I have learnt a lot from her. She has taught me how to use web tools in a community development capacity.

CHAIR —Thank you. I note your submission does talk about selection criteria. You may want to take this question on notice. One of the issues that the government does have to consider and is in the process of considering is which tenderer may be successful and on what basis the tenderer will roll out the services. We have heard much evidence that perhaps the services should be rolled in rather than rolled out. We have also heard evidence that we need to ensure that the successful tenderer services those areas where there are no existing services, rather than their arguably being subsidised by the taxpayer to service that which is already serviced. Are you able to tell us what your organisation thinks should be the way that the national broadband network is rolled out in terms of expanding what you say here, or would you like to take that on notice? Your submission stated:

Indeed, you may argue it should be the lack of existing services.

Ms Chellew —Yes. The criteria on which broadband is rolled out to a small community of say five people?

CHAIR —Who gets what?

Ms Chellew —Yes.

Senator NASH —We have had a number of witnesses talking about where it should start. From what you said today it would seem most appropriate that there is some kind of requirement to ensure that the underserved areas, such as the area you are from, come first in the list. What we are trying to get at is the benefits of starting in those underserved areas rather than the push that seems to be coming from some areas to start in the cities, which would mean that you would be five or seven years down the track.

Ms Chellew —No. Definitely start in the remote areas. You could have maximum impact on the failed state of remote Australia if you were able to roll out broadband to those areas. There are a number of things that have been mentioned in here about the exchanges and the upgrade of exchanges. Broadband has been rolled out but the local exchange has not been upgraded, so there is no access.

Senator NASH —In your submission you say that there is no ADSL on Hammond Island. You said that to get ADSL there would improve things enormously.

Senator MINCHIN —No, that is the next witness.

Senator NASH —I am sorry.

Senator MINCHIN —Torres Strait Islands.

Senator IAN MACDONALD —I feel that all Australians are the same and it annoys me that someone arbitrarily says, ‘Sorry about the two per cent. You’re not going to get it.’ We cannot find out where the two per cent is, but you are giving us a fairly good guess as to where it might be, and that to me is offensive. That brings me to the question that I want to ask you. What submissions have you made to government about the provision of this? I see from your submission some of the benefits and we have heard of them. I do not think you have to justify benefits any more than I have to justify benefits where I live. I am just interested in what submissions you have made to government, bearing in mind that this is a committee of parliament rather than a committee of government and there is quite a big difference. How have you made your view known?

Ms Chellew —I have only been in the IRCA management position a couple of months now, so the people that prepared this document that you have before you are not here today delivering it. I am now researching this area myself and in discussion with the remote media managers and the boards of remote media I am preparing a model that I will put to government.

Senator IAN MACDONALD —How far away is that? Bear in mind this is supposed to be moving very quickly. It is supposed to be all done and dusted by Christmas. None of us believe that is going to be the case, but that was the request for tender.

Ms Chellew —It will probably not be until February next year. If you were to ask for that then I could bring it there—

Senator IAN MACDONALD —As I said, again, you should be really making submissions to the department.

Ms Chellew —DBCDE.

Senator IAN MACDONALD —After all, we taxpayers are going to put in $4.7 billion into this and it is not so people in St Lucia in Brisbane can get a faster speed. It is so that all Australians can get it.

Ms Chellew —I have already been discussing this with the network manager for the NT of DEEWR, under which IRCA is currently funded through the IBP. One of the concerns of the people with whom I work is that IRCA and the media association should be funded under DBCDE. That would be a more appropriate area for it to be funded under.

Senator IAN MACDONALD —Your submission states that the IRCA would strongly recommend that a subsidy be implemented for the 3G network cards, and I suspect elsewhere in your submission you indicate that for everywhere. Of course, that is where the government does have an involvement in subsidising areas that are not commercial. I do not think the taxpayer should be contributing at all where they are commercial. It is fairly important that you make these views—

Ms Chellew —There may be a cost there to government, but there might be a saving in delivery of education, health and a whole lot of other areas by a model whereby these services can be delivered in quite an inexpensive way.

Senator IAN MACDONALD —They say Indigenous people are disadvantaged. I say it is remote people, whether they are Indigenous or otherwise, are disadvantaged. In Australia, of course, they should not be. What you can get here at St Lucia you should be able to get elsewhere. I recognise it costs money, but that is what governments are for. This is a good submission even though you did not do it, but I think it is important to make your views known to the government, and of course this committee takes into account what you say.

Ms Chellew —Thank you for that.

Senator STERLE —There are a lot of positives. It has been a fantastic announcement and now it is the hard work of getting it done. All I can say is that we can only go forward and really look forward to it being rolled out.

CHAIR —Ms Chellew, do you have any other issues that you would like to draw to the committee’s attention? We interrupted your flow.

Ms Chellew —No.

CHAIR —If there is anything you would like to highlight then please feel free to do so.

Ms Chellew —I would like to draw your attention to the successes in Western Australia with the Clever Network scheme and the ‘last mile’. They seem to be successful approaches that have been reported to my organisation and I encourage government to have a look at what has been done quite successfully there.

Also, another point that we would like to raise is that with the rollout of broadband, which is a wonderful thing, along with that goes the other issues of access to computers to take advantage of the broadband and access to ongoing training to use the computers to access the broadband, and operational costs to maintain that equipment. This should all be part of the package. In terms of remote Australia this all needs to be in the package from the beginning or you are setting it up to fail and to be another disappointment.

I would like to draw your attention to item 4.1, the wireless technologies and the delivery of broadband to remote Australia. This is the idea of implementing a common wireless network within communities from the broadband brought into that community, having then a common wireless network from that to provide content to all the organisations and individuals there in some aggregated way that reduces infrastructure costs. In some communities that I have seen there are satellite dishes everywhere for each organisation. It has been very disorganised. Obviously a huge amount of money has been spent by a number of different departments not working together but in silos. There could be a much simpler and cheaper way of rolling this out with this idea of a common wireless network within community. If Aboriginal people have laptops that are on wireless and they travel to different communities within their language speaking area, then wherever they open up they are going to have access to the internet without going through a lot of rigmarole.

Senator IAN MACDONALD —You mentioned about satellite not being perfect. I apologise for being late. I am not sure how technical you are, but are you aware of any prospect of satellite being made perfect?

Ms Chellew —No. I am not very technical in this regard. I can only quote from what has been said here with the current satellite with what is available and that there are a lot of obstacles with that. I do not know the answer to that question.

Senator IAN MACDONALD —Whilst I think 100 per cent of Australians should have access to broadband, I acknowledge that in some cases the actual physical infrastructure is very difficult to get there. Whether there is a prospect of getting a better wireless or a better satellite communication is something that has to be looked at further. Again, that is a technical area that I am not familiar with either.

Ms Chellew —I heard recently at a conference about some discussion in America about a whole new way of providing internet to the American Native Indians. I could get back to you on that.

Senator IAN MACDONALD —It is all moving so quickly. What we might use in two years time probably has not been thought of yet.

Senator STERLE —That far ahead?

Senator IAN MACDONALD —I did say I did not have any technical expertise.

CHAIR —Do you have any further points that you would like to put to us?

CHAIR —No, I do not think so.

CHAIR —Thank you very much for your attendance and your organisation’s submission. We look forward to hearing from the Torres Shire Council by teleconference. We will break temporarily until they are online.

Proceedings suspended from 9.43 am to 9.50 am