CHAIRMAN —I now call witnesses from the ACT Council on the Ageing and the ACT Department of Health and Community Care to be sworn in. Welcome. Would you like to, briefly, give us an opening statement. We have got your submission. It has been circulated and published and we have all read it. There might be some aspects of it that you would like to highlight. I noticed upon reading it that it appeared to concentrate on a fairly specific area.

Ms Markham —Yes, it does. The reciprocal arrangements have been the most specific area which we have had to deal with. I shall just give you a little bit of background. The area in which I work took responsibility for the seniors card when the new government was elected in the Australian Capital Territory last year. There had been earlier discussions. Rosemary Follett had previously had discussions with Mr Fahey and Mr Greiner as to reciprocal state rail arrangements which seem to be the biggest issue.

The biggest barrier has probably been that the criteria for having a seniors card in the ACT are different from those in other states and, as you would know, they are different in all states. In the ACT the only requirements are that you are 60 years of age and that you are an ACT resident. You could be working or be a millionaire and still have a seniors card. That seems to have been one of the barriers to negotiations about reciprocal arrangements.

CHAIRMAN —What is the ACT government's view on the current diversity of concession cards being issued at Commonwealth level and the complexity of the administrative system which currently exists which involves a number of departments and the Health Insurance Commission?

Ms Markham —I cannot answer that question for you, because I did not actually prepare this submission. I have just come here to answer for you anything I can about the seniors card.

CHAIRMAN —Okay.

Ms ELLIS —Jim Purcell, now that you have got the contracted carriage of the seniors card, to ensure the appropriate delivery of that service has the council been given additional resources?

Mr Purcell —Yes, it has.

Ms ELLIS —To what degree?

Mr Purcell —The contract was worth $40,000.

Ms ELLIS —Over and above your current funding level?

Mr Purcell —That is right. That will allow us to purchase the necessary hardware for the database and to hire an additional part-time staff member.

Ms ELLIS —So you are not taking over a current system that was operating within the bureaucracy prior to that?

Mr Purcell —Yes, we are. But there are some necessary changes to that system which are taking place at the present time. The database has yet to be handed over to us. The ACT government is currently working on that database to ensure compatibility with the systems that we operate, and there are some privacy provisions which need to be complied with before the database is handed over.

Ms ELLIS —The other questions I have got might be a bit awkward, given that Carmel has just said that you are primarily here to handle the seniors card questions.

Ms Markham —I am.

Ms ELLIS —Between the two of you, I am not sure whether I am going to go out of your brief.

Mr Purcell —I will answer questions for the ACT government. I do not mind.

CHAIRMAN —It might not like it.

Ms ELLIS —It is an interesting thing to have on record.

Mr Purcell —It is.

Ms ELLIS —As it operates in the ACT, the seniors card is a concession system outside of a more formal one. I know that a lot of the concessions that are available on there are at the behest of people offering them rather than their being a formal governmental system of concession.

Mr Purcell —That is correct.

Ms ELLIS —Do you see any problems in the formal government concession system as it operates in the ACT, given that we are surrounded by New South Wales, geographically, and we have a desperate need for reciprocity on that basis?

Mr Purcell —Yes, I do. The problem from a consumer perspective at the present time is that if you are an ACT resident you can access a range of services and retail opportunities and those sorts of things. The problem that most people face is that, if they try to get some sort of concession in New South Wales, it depends basically on the person that might be providing the concession. Any number of people have advised us that, if they go to the railway station and show their seniors card, some individuals will recognise it but others will not. It is the same sort of thing in Sydney. Some bus drivers will recognise it but other people--for example, some ferry operators--will not.

Ms ELLIS —Where are we up to in addressing that?

Mr Purcell —As far as I am aware, the ACT government has had a number of discussions with New South Wales on that particular issue but I do not believe it has been advanced terribly far at this stage. I understand that the New South Wales government has done some sort of costing of the problem but I have not seen any figures in relation to what it does cost.

It seems to me, though, that from a consumer perspective the ACT draws an awful lot of New South Wales seniors, particularly at this time of the year with Floriade and so on, and there would not be any major financial drain on New South Wales if it offered the same sorts of concessions to ACT seniors as it does to its own seniors.

Ms ELLIS —Now that the council has the implementation and the carriage of the seniors card, who is going to be the negotiating body in the ACT on behalf of pensioners here with the New South Wales and other governments? Is it going to be the ACT government, or is it going to be the council?

Mr Purcell —It will be the Council on the Ageing.

Ms ELLIS —So you are really being put into a fairly political position, in that sense, in negotiating with other governments?

Mr Purcell —Yes. That is correct.

Ms ELLIS —Let me also turn to the submission from the ACT government. There is an attachment which has been referred to as the ACT concessions program for 1994-95. Was that also the program for 1995-96, which is the year we have just finished?

Ms Markham —I cannot answer that.

Ms ELLIS —If you could find that out, I would be grateful. I notice that on that program--in the letter to which it is attached, it says it is for 1994-95--one thing is glaringly missing from that, and that is a dental concession. We heard evidence earlier today that there is a supposition drawn by most of us that, although there was the controversial withdrawal of the Commonwealth dental process of assistance, states and territories did, in fact, have their own. Is there an ACT government administered dental system and, if so, when did it come into implementation given that it does not appear in 1994-95? What is the current position affecting Health Care Card holders or seniors card holders in the ACT of the age category requiring dental assistance?

Mrs WEST —That may be addressed in their budget in September.

Ms ELLIS —There is a year missing, as well.

CHAIRMAN —We realise that you cannot answer some of the questions that Ms Ellis is asking.

Ms ELLIS —Yes, I acknowledge that.

CHAIRMAN —And, to be honest, the ACT government has not sent the people from the ACT Treasury who we understood were going to come along. They would have been in the position to answer those questions. All we ask you is that you go back to the ACT government and tell them the matters that we would like answers on, and get to the secretary, Mr Bjarne Nordin, a further submission from the ACT government answering these questions. That would assist the committee in its deliberations.

Ms ELLIS —In relation to what I understand to be the 1994-95 program of concessions, could we have a confirmed program for the year that has just finalised and for the program that is currently in place? That would be useful as well.

Ms Markham —You want it confirmed for 1995-96.

Ms ELLIS —This is referred to as 1994-95 only. Was it exactly the same for 1995-96 and, if not, what was it and what is the current one?

Ms Markham —Fine.

Mrs WEST —They are in budget mode in the ACT. You could possibly put it into the system now; I do not know whether they have worked out what they are going to do on 24 September. But, with your concern about the travel concessions, what would your group like to recommend to the New South Wales government?

Mr Purcell —The issue is a little more complex than that. Carmel Markham mentioned, in her opening statement, the eligibility criteria for seniors cards; they are different across all the states and territories. The ACT's eligibility criteria are perhaps the easiest criteria in that the only criteria are that you be 60 and live in the ACT. All other states and territories have more stringent eligibility criteria. I believe that that is one of the stumbling blocks in relation to why they do not provide reciprocity with the ACT. If the ACT were to introduce different eligibility criteria, then I suspect that the New South Wales government might be a little more ready to talk about reciprocity.

What we would simply need to do is change the eligibility criteria to remove the simple fact that you need to be 60. It should be 60 and not in a full-time job or not working more than 10 hours a week or something like that. That would satisfy the New South Wales government to some extent, but I still believe that the New South Wales government sees some financial disadvantage in recognising ACT seniors.

Mrs VALE —If a national transport concession card could be developed that would address this problem with reciprocity, would you endorse such an initiative?

Mr Purcell —Yes, I would, but I do not really see the advantage of a national transport card in addition to a seniors card. The concessions provided for transport are usually government concessions. Most of the other concessions that people get are commercial concessions provided by private organisations. It would be a better option if we could get the transport concessions accepted as part of the seniors card.

Mr ROSS CAMERON —In terms of the generosity of the benefit, you actually wind up with very little in the end, or you lose a big chunk of the possible benefit, if you cannot get agreement with New South Wales. My questions are: firstly, what is the logic of giving 60-year-old Rupert Murdoch a travel concession--

Mr Purcell —There is no logic.

Mr ROSS CAMERON —Secondly, what are the prospects politically?

CHAIRMAN —He is a resident here, is he?

Mr ROSS CAMERON —It sounds as though he would not have to be, to qualify.

Mr Purcell —No. If he were resident here, he could get a card: you are quite right.

Mr ROSS CAMERON —Okay. What are the prospects of the ACT government reviewing it to come up with a deal which the New South Wales government is going to be happy with?

Mr Purcell —It would be my view that the organisation that I work for, the Council on the Ageing, would consider putting a recommendation to the ACT government to alter the eligibility criteria.

Mr ROSS CAMERON —They ought to do it, shouldn't they? It is in the interests of their constituency.

Mr Purcell —They ought to do it. I believe so. It will be a political decision that the ACT government will make, but that decision can be based on the fact that we can provide them with information to show that ACT seniors might get a better deal if the eligibility criteria are altered slightly.

CHAIRMAN —When is this all going to happen?

Mr Purcell —As soon as possible. We have signed the contract within the last few weeks, so we have not had any opportunity to put any recommendations to government yet. When we do put a recommendation to government, it will be up to government to consider that, so I cannot give you a time frame.

Mrs ELSON —Mr Purcell, did the suggestions on the eligibility for the Pensioner Health Benefit Card in 1993--it was later renamed the pensioner concession card--have any impact on the level of demand for concessions provided by the ACT government?

Mr Purcell —I cannot answer that. Ms Markham might be able to answer.

Ms Markham —I cannot answer that.

Mrs ELSON —That is okay. If you could get back to us on that one, I would appreciate it.

Ms ELLIS —Mr Purcell, with the contract for the operation by the council of the card, does the $40,000 include the production and the sending out of the cards, and the whole kit and caboodle?

Mr Purcell —It does indeed.

Ms ELLIS —Could you quickly outline for us the formal government concessions that come with the seniors card, as against the generosity of the commercial sector wishing to attach themselves to it?

Mr Purcell —I believe the government concessions are restricted to travel on ACTION buses. I do not believe there are other government concessions.

Ms Markham —And I think there is admission to swimming pools and some theatres. I actually have it here, somewhere.

Mr Purcell —Theatres are not government owned.

Ms Markham —No.

Ms ELLIS —All of the rates concessions and all of those other things are attached to all of the other concession cards that come through the Commonwealth, are they?

Mr Purcell —To all of the other concession cards. There are no other government concessions attached to the seniors card--other than, I believe, ACTION buses.

Ms ELLIS —You may need to take this question on notice. We had a discussion with ACROD earlier today about the access to taxi concessions for disabled people in our community. Given the location of Queanbeyan in relation to the ACT, can you give us some indication of whether there is any reciprocity at all between Queanbeyan--and, therefore, New South Wales--and the ACT in the use of transport and taxi concessions for the disabled? If so, how does it work? If not, what are the problems that emerge as a result of that lack of two-way concessionality?

CHAIRMAN —Will you take that on notice?

Ms ELLIS —Yes, I am happy for that.

CHAIRMAN —I have two other questions, and I suspect that you might have to take those on notice as well and get back to us. Firstly, a number of submissions have proposed that a national transport concession card be introduced to overcome the problem of the lack of reciprocity across states and territories. Would you see merit in such a proposal? Secondly, are there any issues relating to Commonwealth-state coordination of concessional entitlements which you would like to raise with the committee, either now or perhaps in a written further submission?

Mr Purcell —On the first one, Mr Chairman, Mrs Vale asked a similar question about the benefit of a transport concession card. Whilst I would accept that there are significant benefits to be had, if we are able to negotiate a transport concession card for older people aged 60, 65 or whatever, I believe that it ought to operate in conjunction with the seniors card, whether that be a national seniors card or a state operated seniors card. Another card, a transport concession card, would simply add to the range of concession cards that are already in existence, and I do not know that it would be beneficial to anybody to have another card and another set of administrative arrangements in place to look after that particular card. It could be added quite successfully to the seniors cards in all of the states and territories.

Mrs WEST —What kind of budget are you looking for for the card? Is it unlimited travel for a concession card?

Mr Purcell —At the present time in most of the states and territories people have unlimited travel at concession rates. In the ACT, seniors card holders can get unlimited concessional travel at certain times outside peak hours.

CHAIRMAN —Is there anything else you would like to tell the inquiry at this time? Thank you very much for appearing before us. As I said, we were disappointed that the ACT Treasury officials did not arrive as originally planned, but we thank you in any event for being here this afternoon.

Resolved (on motion by Mrs West, seconded by Ms Ellis):

That, pursuant to the power conferred by section 2(2) of the Parliamentary Papers Act 1908, this committee authorises publication of the evidence given before it at public hearing this day.

Committee adjourned at 4.35 p.m.