Senator CHRIS EVANS --I see that we have actually decided to deal with Holsworthy here. I am not sure whether that is because people understood that Senator Forshaw would not be getting in until later this afternoon. That was only meant as a joke, by the way.

CHAIR --Yes, I am taking it as a joke.

Senator CHRIS EVANS --The programming was done with our concurrence. I am happy to deal with that. I have a couple of follow-up questions. Is there any further information that the department wants to provide us with following the line of questioning that occurred on Holsworthy? Have there been any developments? For instance, I notice that, in response to questions taken on notice, there is a consultancy for the review of army's long-term facilities and training area requirements, which was commenced in mid-September and undertaken by Viv Morgan and Associates. What is the timetable for that review? When would one expect to have the report?

Air Vice Marshal Cox --I will invite the Acting Deputy Secretary, Budget and Management, to take prime carriage of this topic.

Mr Corey --I will answer that question specifically on Holsworthy. The Morgan review is really an army generated review that is unrelated to Holsworthy in the sense that it has nothing to do with Holsworthy. But the impact of Holsworthy will have some input to the review that is being conducted.

Senator CHRIS EVANS --I gather from your answer that it is one of the terms of reference of the review.

Mr Corey --That is right.

Major Gen. Hartley --There will be a preliminary return on the report in December. But the report itself is not expected to be finished until April next year.

Senator CHRIS EVANS --I see that you have given us the answers to the questions Senator Faulkner requested regarding expenditure on Holsworthy infrastructure, et cetera, in the last four years. There is a small amount for capital works in this financial year of $16 million. Can someone tell me what that is for?

Mr Corey --That is in relation to the relocation of the military hospital from Ingleburn. It was contracted prior to the decision to consider Holsworthy as an alternative for the second Sydney airport. It will be completed in about December this year and be operational early next year.

Senator CHRIS EVANS --So it is effectively a small base hospital being established there?

Mr Corey --I guess it is a major hospital because it is army's second major hospital. There is one in Enoggera and there is one in Holsworthy.

Senator CHRIS EVANS --And that will be operational at the end of the year?

Mr Corey --Early in 1997.

Senator CHRIS EVANS --And the property operations cost of $12.6 million. Do I take property operations to be maintenance?

Mr Corey --That is principally, yes, maintenance of facilities.

Senator CHRIS EVANS --Are there any major works involved there or are they mainly ongoing?

Mr Corey --No, it is just ongoing maintenance of the buildings that are already there.

Senator CHRIS EVANS --While we are on Holsworthy, I understand in the minister's ministerial statement on defence policy that there are actually some implications for Holsworthy within that plan as well. I am just trying to find the section. I gather there is a new unit being transferred to Holsworthy, is there?

Senator WEST --The 5th Brigade. The minister in a statement on 15 October was talking about the headquarters of the 5th Brigade being moved from Lidcombe to Holsworthy.

Major Gen. Hartley --That is correct. The 1st Brigade, which is gradually moving to Darwin next year--in fact, the headquarters of that brigade will move to Darwin next year--and the 5th Brigade will move from Lidcombe to Holsworthy to replace the 1st Brigade and to take command of the units which remain in Holsworthy.

Senator WEST --How many personnel will be involved in this move?

Major Gen. Hartley --It would be somewhere in the order of 20 to 30.

Senator WEST --And it will not require any additional facilities to be built at Holsworthy?

Major Gen. Hartley --No, it will take over the facility which currently houses the 1st Brigade.

Senator CHRIS EVANS --Are there any other implications for Holsworthy in the minister's statement? That is a specific reference to the 5th Brigade. Are there any other implications?

Major Gen. Hartley --Not in the near term. The 4th Battalion will convert to a commando regiment over time, but in the next 12 months there should be no other changes from Holsworthy's point of view.

Senator WEST --What role does the 5th Brigade have? What do they do?

Major Gen. Hartley --The 5th Brigade is basically a general reserve brigade headquarters which commands a number of general reserve units. It will continue to perform that function. When it moves to Holsworthy it will have its strength increased. It will have a full-time commander, who might be a general reserve officer doing it full time or a regular officer. In addition to commanding the present units that it has under command, it will also take responsibility for those units which will be in Holsworthy.

Senator WEST --How many people will be left at Holsworthy after the 1st Brigade moves out?

Major Gen. Hartley --I can give you a very general answer.

Senator WEST --Take that on notice, if you like.

Major Gen. Hartley --I could take that on notice but it would be somewhere between 2,000 and 3,000.

Senator WEST --With the move of the headquarters of the reserve going out there, will that mean 5th Brigade will be undertaking more of their training exercises at Holsworthy?

Major Gen. Hartley --Not significantly, no.

Senator WEST --On sexual harassment, I got an answer to a question on notice that was also promised to Senators MacGibbon and Margetts. I thank you for it. Just looking at the numbers, 84 types of sexual harassment occurred to 30 June this year. Do we have any idea what the situation is since 30 June this year? You do monthly statistics, do you not?

Air Vice Marshal Cox --We usually pull these together over a longer period. We do not do them month by month. We would probably have to do a special search if we wanted to pull any more data--

Senator WEST --That is okay. I was just wanting to see if change is evident. There were 84 incidents of complaints and then it goes on to list the 84 complaints in terms of who the respondent and the complainant were and the service involved. Again, that came to 84. We then had a list where, in the resolution of sexual harassment complaints, navy had resolved 14, army 23, air force 15 and ADFA 4, and it came to a total of 56. Am I to take it that there are still 28 cases outstanding and which have not been resolved.

Air Vice Marshal Cox --Concerning the figures on outstanding ones, I would have to make the same assumption as you--I have not got the figures. That would not be unusual because it depends when the figures are taken and when the resolution has occurred. From the report to the resolution can be a considerable time in some circumstances. It would not be unusual if that were the case, but to subtract and add to give you the figure, to make it all add up, I would have to take that away.

Senator WEST --Given that it can take some time, how many cases of sexual harassment complaints are there still unresolved that have gone beyond the statute of limitations for internal disciplinary action within the three services?

Air Vice Marshal Cox --I cannot answer that.

Senator WEST --Maybe that can be taken on notice as well.

Air Vice Marshal Cox --Yes. We would have to go through. I would be surprised if there were any, but I would need to confirm that.

Senator WEST --Have there been any in recent times?

Air Vice Marshal Cox --The statute of limitations is three or five years--I cannot recall which one.

Senator WEST --Three.

Air Vice Marshal Cox --There might be one or two, but whether we classify them as Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission or whether we classify them as something else--for example, an Ombudsman inquiry, or whatever--if you wish to know what we have on the books in any of those categories which might be outside three years, I think we could easily provide that.

Senator WEST --I would appreciate that because I want to follow up a concern that Senator Newman had a couple of years ago that some of these actually get put into the system somewhere and can look like there has been something slowing the process down, the statute of limitation expires and therefore no internal disciplinary actions can be taken against the perpetrator or the alleged perpetrator. I would appreciate it if someone could have a look at the figures to see whether there are a number of cases that are still--

Senator Newman --Dragging their feet.

Senator WEST --Dragging their feet, or are you going to extend the statute of limitations? That is another inquiry. I will not go into that now.

Air Vice Marshal Cox --I could do that, but I would like to put on record that it is something we do not do purposely, obviously. The complexity of some of these cases is something to behold, I can assure you. Time just goes by. It is not done purposely at all.

Senator WEST --I would not want to imply that it is being done purposely by the senior or even the middle level, but there could be occasions, and I know some of them are complex, having sat on the reference committee over this side for a while. Maybe that brings up other issues on the statute of limitations. I do not want to go down that path now but I would like to have a figure--perhaps army with the Townsville case; that sort of thing.

Air Vice Marshal Cox --That could be one of them but I would prefer to take it as a group and make sure we get the right classification. We will come back to you.

Senator WEST --I am very happy for you to do that. In fact, I would prefer you to do that than have us both making mistakes. Can I look at the disciplinary action. We have the resolution of the complaints, we have navy having formal action on 12 out of 14, and informal action on 2 out of 14; army informal action six out of 23 and 17 informals; air force has had zero formal action and 15 informal actions; ADFA has had three formal actions and one informal out of four.

Then when we get to the disciplinary action resulting from sexual harassment incidents in the ADF, we see that navy has taken some disciplinary action on 16 cases, army 10, the academy three and air force zero. Given that air force had 25 incidents of sexual harassment, army 40 and navy 14, navy has taken disciplinary action on 16--some of these probably come over from the previous year--but it seems to me that navy has a pretty solid history in recent times of taking disciplinary action, of very forcefully indicating that sexual harassment is not acceptable. The army has 10 out of 40--and they are obviously doing something towards that--but the air force has zero out of 25 incidents. Those incidents cross the same spectrum of the types of complaints as the other two services, yet the air force has taken no disciplinary action, not even individual counselling or an apology.

Air Vice Marshal Cox --Is there a specific question? I can see the observation you are making.

Senator WEST --I want to know why. Air force, please explain.

Air Vice Marshal Cox --Perhaps I can give a bit of a general background and then the air force can provide some more detail to this. It has been an interesting debate over the last two to three years on what is the best action to take on this and how it will be put in place. This goes right back to the Senate hearings on sexual harassment and the like, which you were involved in, as I was.

There have been some changes in approach. I am not sure how each service has actually taken it but, just in a general sense, the concept is to try to resolve most of these things early, on the spot. We have put in place a vast array of contact officers and what have you to try to staff these things. The aim is to attempt to stop it getting too far down the track before an agreeable situation is reached between the complainant and the respondent. That is as a general sense.

I think it would be interesting to see how these figures look in future years as well. I think the tendency of the services to approach it in their own way will drift towards resolution at the lowest possible level without involvement because, if that can be achieved, it seems to be the better way for all parties. Having said that, the figures which you point to are, of course, quite different. Indeed, I cannot spell out specifically and in detail why it may be that the air force has not had one action other than some informal resolution.

Senator WEST --This really worries me, particularly when I take this into consideration with the discussion, the debate and the difference of opinion that RAAF is also having with the Ombudsman over sexual harassment issues. I just get very worried as to what is happening with sexual harassment in the air force. I would have thought that if you are resolving something at the lowest level, if somebody is actually intervening, even something like an apology is, at the very least, the minimum that would be required in the resolution.

Air Vice Marshal Cox --Senator, now that you have raised that, I have the same suspicion. In fact, I am wondering whether or not we have a classification problem. I seem to recall having seen on numerous occasions where one party has apologised to the other. The difficulty I have here is, if that apology has occurred at a particular part of the process, it may not have been captured as a particular figure that has gone into these reports.

I do note that, if somebody has harassed another and a complaint is laid to the contact officers and consultation has taken place, if the person who has been harassed is satisfied with the action, frequently all it requires is an apology from the person. Then it is off the books, so to speak. What I suspect might be the case is whether or not they have actually been recorded. I note Air Vice Marshal Richardson has come to the table, so we might ask him.

Air Vice Marshal Richardson --Senator, I can assure you that every one of these cases is investigated. In a comment you made earlier you implied that perhaps apologies have not been made. I took it that you were implying that, without formal action, that would imply that there has not been a formal follow-up. Formal disciplinary action is where charges under the Defence Force Discipline Act are involved. That is one means. Of course, that involves a lot of formal action involving the alleged victim. We have found that in many cases it is possible to resolve these informally, and that can certainly involve formal apologies and things like that. So I do not have specific information to indicate that--and I can certainly get that if you wish--but we certainly are taking these issues very seriously.

Senator CHRIS EVANS --Why isn't it reflected in the statistics then?

Air Vice Marshal Richardson --In terms of the fact that formal action is shown as zero?

Senator CHRIS EVANS --They have a section for apology counselling. Surely the action you have described would fall within that category.

Senator WEST --It is individual training if you are telling them that they are doing the wrong thing, such as, `Stop it. That has got to cease.'

Senator CHRIS EVANS --According to the table provided, it very clearly points the finger at the air force, as if they are doing nothing about these complaints. These are your tables, so I suspect that what we are saying is, `Is that right or are the tables misleading?' If so, why are they misleading?

Air Vice Marshal Cox --If I can take that, it is data which is captured and reported to Headquarters ADF. So, as the chief of personnel, I could take it and look at that. I am concerned. In fact, I think we have a definitional problem, it seems to me, that has emerged from this, where action taken by air force at a low level is not deemed to be some action which is recorded. I think we need to check that.

Senator WEST --I also want to follow on by saying this: what is being recorded on the service records of the people involved? If someone is just getting away with, `Look, stop that. Don't do it again. We have resolved the case,' and nothing is being written on the service record of the alleged perpetrator, they may sort of blithely go from base to base with this low level harassment just continuing.

Air Vice Marshal Cox --I understand the concern, but Madam Chair, if you are agreeable, we could look at this further and give you a fuller brief.

Senator WEST --I would very much appreciate you looking at this further.

Senator Newman --Madam Chair, I want to intervene here because, as minister responsible for the status of women, I have a particular interest in this issue, too. I would hope that the committee could have advice as to how each service defines `sexual harassment' and how each service defines `disciplinary action'. Perhaps that will help us get to the bottom of the discrepancy, because it is very concerning, especially in the light of issues that Senator West and I both know well about. We would have a very real concern that this confirms some of our fears.

Air Vice Marshal Cox --There are a couple of points I would like to make. For information, we are getting not only female sexual harassment--

Senator WEST --I realise that. There is male on male.

Air Vice Marshal Cox --There is male-male harassment and the like. When I was glancing at this last evening I wondered whether you had seen a copy of the defence instruction which applies to this. We do have a very comprehensive defence instruction. I will be delighted to give you a copy of that.

Senator WEST --Probably not the latest.

Air Vice Marshal Cox --We have reworked it. But the points you raise Senator Newman will definitely address.

Senator CHRIS EVANS --It is very clear that this table was not compiled by somebody from the air force. It is a pretty incriminating table, to be honest, so I think we ought to get to the bottom of it.

CHAIR --Are there any further questions on program 1?

Senator WEST --No, but I will just put everybody on notice that I will be continuing my interest in sexual harassment in the ADF for the next round of estimates.

CHAIR --Very good.

Air Vice Marshal Cox --It has come down.

Senator Newman --Let us be fair: there is a table in there that distinctly shows that each service is trending down.

Senator WEST --I have to congratulate the three services and ADFA because they certainly have improved the situation a lot. Whilst you want a zero incidence of the thing, you say you are a microcosm of the community. I have to congratulate you on what you have done to date, but let us not rest on our laurels but keep watching.