Senator SCHACHT —I have some questions on Africa about the dreadful circumstance of the war between Eritrea and Ethiopia. First of all, we do not have permanent—

Mr Dauth —We are accredited in Ethiopia from Nairobi. Philip Green, our High Commissioner in Nairobi, is accredited in Ethiopia.

Senator SCHACHT —Who is accredited in Eritrea?

Mr Dauth —Do we have accreditation?

Senator SCHACHT —You must be accredited.

Mr Dauth —Yes we are, the same place.

Senator SCHACHT —Nairobi is the closest.

Mr Dauth —Yes.

Senator SCHACHT —I think the fighting has been on and off for nearly a couple of years, but how often does our ambassador in Kenya—or high commissioner, I presume; it is part of the Commonwealth—visit both Ethiopia and Eritrea?

Mr Dauth —Before I ask Mr Doran, who is the relevant director to answer, let me say that, since the intensification of the fighting, I do not think that we have made visits at all.

Senator SCHACHT —I would not blame you. It is pretty dangerous.

Mr Dauth —As you know, Philip Green is an extremely energetic and able head of mission.

Senator SCHACHT —I just wondered for the record. I am not in any way being pejorative in asking the question. I just wondered how often he has been able to visit, say in the last 12 months, both Ethiopia and Eritrea.

Mr Doran —I cannot be precise, Senator, but Philip Green is accredited to quite a number of countries.

Senator SCHACHT —Yes, I appreciate that.

Mr Doran —So he has extensive obligations to visit a number of places, and he is not the only one to visit. Often his first secretary or second secretary will go in his place.

Mr Dauth —We will check for you and let you know, but the answer is: not often.

Senator SCHACHT —I understand.

Mr Dauth —But we will give you an answer, yes.

Mr Doran —We do have an officer in Ethiopia at the moment, in Addis Ababa, who is there on routine business and has been able to make some representations in regard to the—

Senator SCHACHT —Who do we subcontract out to—which other embassy—to do our consular work, whatever it may be? If we have a consular query, often we designate or reach an agreement with another country. Who handles our consular work, whatever it may be, in Ethiopia and Eritrea?

Mr Baxter —We have a formal consular sharing agreement with the Canadians, who have honorary consuls in that area, and we work through them.

Senator SCHACHT —Honorary consuls?

Mr Baxter —Yes, as well through our own mission.

Senator SCHACHT —Thank you for that. I want to turn now to the crisis, as I would call it, because of the large number of people who have been killed. Do you have any information about how many people have been killed in the fighting? It has been described as a variation of the Second World War-cum-First World War, with everything from trench warfare to blitzkrieg, tanks, artillery—you name it, they have been doing it to each other in the fighting. There is press speculation that the casualties on both sides are quite large.

Mr Dauth —Unless Brendan Doran really astonishes me with some insight, I think the short answer is that we do not have a real clear fix on that.

Senator SCHACHT —Other than what is speculated in the press.

Mr Dauth —Absolutely, yes. We have a certain amount of information from other sources, from other countries, but we do not have any precise answer on that, I am afraid. It is obviously terrible.

Mr Doran —If I could add one comment: obviously both sides at the moment are putting out different stories about casualties.

Senator SCHACHT —Yes, they have been doing that for 30 years.

Mr Doran —Yes. But over the past two years, up until the current outbreak of hostilities, we believe something like 100,000 have died on both sides.

Senator SCHACHT —Up until this recent crisis?

Mr Doran —Yes.

Senator SCHACHT —We have provided humanitarian food aid to both countries over the last 15 to 20 years directly and indirectly through NGOs and UN organisations. How much food aid are we providing this year? I will put to this to AusAID when we have them.

Mr Dauth —They are the people I think really.

Senator SCHACHT —Is there any other Australian involvement with what is going on in the Horn of Africa?

Mr Dauth —No.

Senator SCHACHT —There is nothing that we have done? Have we not been asked or involved in any way through any of the UN organisations?

Mr Dauth —No.

Senator SCHACHT —About pressuring the settlement?

Mr Dauth —No.

Senator SCHACHT —Do we not make a comment about what we know of who is more in the right and who is more in the wrong in how this whole sorry saga started in the last two years?

Mr Dauth —We would not be well enough informed and we are obviously an extremely marginal player.

Senator SCHACHT —Have there been any consular queries from the Eritrean side of Australians being warned not to go there, or Australians who are there to pull out? I think the Fred Hollows Foundation has got an intra-ocular lens factory which may have some Australians there from time to time and we might have aid workers through NGOs operating in the area.

Mr Dauth —I understand there are no Australians. Mr Fischer from the board of the Hollows Foundation was telling me that there were no Australians left, but they still have, as it were, some locally engaged staff. He was asking whether we could make representations to the Ethiopians about any targeting of the factory.

Senator SCHACHT —Not to bomb the factory?

Mr Dauth —Yes, that is right and I think the short answer to that is yes. We ought to be able to do that. We have got an officer there to let us take the issue up. We will make a serious effort to try and help but you cannot of course guarantee anything in these nasty conflicts.

Mr Doran —We have in fact made those representations overnight and have been given certain assurances by the Ethiopian government.

Senator SCHACHT —That they will not bomb the factory?

Mr Doran —Yes.

Senator SCHACHT —With all due respect to the Ethiopians, how can they tell where the factory is in Asmara?

Mr Doran —I think that is a fair point.

Senator SCHACHT —I know the factory is not actually at the airport, which they have bombed.

Mr Doran —Yes.

Senator SCHACHT —And the airport is not in the centre of the city obviously.

Mr Doran —Anyway, we can only do what we have done.

Mr Baxter —If I can add to that, Senator, we issued travel advice on 14 May advising all Australians to defer travel to Eritrea and Ethiopia and recommended that those people in Eritrea leave. There are currently nine Australians in Eritrea; three of those were scheduled to depart today. Obviously, that leaves us with six. At least three of those remaining six are dual nationals who have informed us that they do not have any intention to leave at the moment.

Senator SCHACHT —Are the other three who are not dual nationals involved in aid programs?

Mr Baxter —Generally, but there are some people with commercial interests there as well.

Senator SCHACHT —The mining industry?

Mr Baxter —Yes.

Senator SCHACHT —The only area I can think of where we may have an indirect influence is, if Ethiopia or Eritrea have any bids in to the World Bank or the IMF for financial support, we do have a vote and representation. Have you provided or been asked to provide any advice to our directors or whatever you call them on such issues?

Mr Dauth —I do not believe so.

Senator SCHACHT —I know they are Treasury reps in effect or they are appointed by Treasury.

Mr Dauth —They are. Greg Taylor of course is our representative at the IMF. There is consultation across the government on these issues and if the issue were to arise we would no doubt join with others in trying to bring appropriate pressure to bear. But I do not think actually that that has—here is a piece of real information, Senator.

Senator SCHACHT —Good.

Mr Mugliston —There is perhaps one issue here that we could mention and that is in respect of the so-called Heavily Indebted Poor Countries initiative. I draw your attention to the press release of the Treasurer and the Minister for Foreign Affairs of 21 April this year which announced that Australia will forgive 100 per cent of bilateral debts owed to Australia by those HIPCs eligible for debt relief.

Senator SCHACHT —Is Ethiopia eligible? Is that a HIPC?

Mr Mugliston —It is, indeed.

Senator SCHACHT —Is Eritrea one, or has Eritrea never got around to getting a loan yet to be indebted?

Mr Mugliston —What is relevant here is that of the so-called HIPCs, there are two that have outstanding debts due to Australia—Nicaragua and Ethiopia.

Senator SCHACHT —What is the Ethiopian figure?

Mr Mugliston —It is $12.6 million.

Senator SCHACHT —How long has that been outstanding?

Mr Mugliston —I would have to check with a colleague. It has been outstanding for a number of years.

Mr Dauth —The essence of the senator's question will be: what are we going to do about it?

Senator SCHACHT —Why should we forgive the debt when the Eritreans, and particularly the Ethiopians, are spending a large amount of money on arms?

Mr Dauth —That seemed to me, on the face of it, to be a significant question which has not yet—

Senator COOK —The HIPC initiative, as I understand it, involves forgiving debt or easing debt on countries of this nature in exchange for commitments by them to spend the savings on education and health programs within their countries. It would seem to be manifestly the case that a great lot of revenue in both Ethiopia and Eritrea is not being spent on health and education at the moment, it is being spent on armaments.

Mr Mugliston —Yes. The point is that the debt relief for Ethiopia under this initiative has been put on hold due to armed conflict. That is the important piece of information.

Senator SCHACHT —I do not think anyone would object, Mr Dauth, if it stayed on hold and the Ethiopians were told we will not forgive it or make those arrangements.

Mr Dauth —Yes.

Senator SCHACHT —The other question I raise is that I see in one of the press reports that Russia was mentioned as one of the major suppliers of arms to Ethiopia. They certainly were in the Menghistu days. The old Soviet Union kept the whole place propped up with weapons in particular. Do we have any information on that?

Mr Doran —The old Eastern bloc countries have supplied arms to both sides. Quite recently—I think about a week ago—the UN Security Council imposed an arms embargo for a period of 12 months, to be reviewed after that.

Senator SCHACHT —The circumstantial evidence is that Russia and the old Eastern bloc countries in one form or another are still supplying arms to Ethiopia. Is that true?

Mr Doran —Yes.

Senator SCHACHT —No Western country was dirtying its hands, supplying weapons in the last two years, that you are aware of?

Mr Doran —I could not be precise about that. I am not aware of it.

Senator SCHACHT —My colleague has just suggested the French will sell something to anybody in the arms area, with all due respect to our French colleagues.

Mr Dauth —We would not be able to comment on that, of course.

Senator SCHACHT —Mr Dauth, I know this area is not a high priority within our focused resources, but I would appreciate it if, from time to time, any further information comes through that you forward it on.

Mr Dauth —Sure.

Senator SCHACHT —The reason for that is that, during the 1980s and early 1990s, a large amount of non-government aid went into Eritrea and Ethiopia on donation from the Australian public. It was not just a few hundred thousand dollars, it ran into millions. Those of us who visited at that time saw it. I think it is a bit distressing that after a small pause they are back into each other again over a border dispute that to say is like Gilbert and Sullivan would be a modest description. Therefore, I ask that any information you have you provide, maybe not so much to this committee because we do not meet that often, but to the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade—

Mr Dauth —Or to you, personally.

Senator SCHACHT —and to other members of the committee. If the figure of 100,000 has been killed during the last two weeks of fighting, that makes it one of the worst wars in the last 10 years, by far.

Mr Dauth —God only knows. Yes, it is terrible.

Senator SCHACHT —Thank you.

Senator WEST —To start with, I turn to Iran's World Bank loans and the trial of Iranian Jews. Was the department consulted or otherwise involved in the government's decision to vote in favour of two loans from the World Bank to Iran totalling $232 million?

Mr Dauth —I am sure the answer is yes.

Senator WEST —Did the US make any representations to Australia seeking support for a decision to postpone the loans?

Mr Bowker —The answer is yes.

Senator WEST —And what was Australia's reaction?

Mr Bowker —Mr Downer considered the representation, and his instruction was that, in the event that there was a consensus for deferral of consideration of the loans, then Australia should support that consensus. If a consensus did not emerge then, in accordance with longstanding government policy, the question should be determined upon the merits of the particular proposals. In the event that no consensus did emerge for deferral, and given that the proposals matched the criteria of technical and developmental effectiveness, Mr Downer determined that the vote should be in favour of those proposals.

Senator WEST —And that was the reason for Australia voting in favour?

Mr Bowker —Yes.

Senator WEST —Can you outline in more detail the merits, please?

Mr Bowker —It is an issue which is probably better put to AusAID and to Treasury, but my understanding is that the proposals had been judged by the management of the World Bank to be well within the criteria normally accorded to such proposals.

Senator WEST —So AusAID should be asked that as well.

Senator COOK —The criteria does not tie the loans to human rights abuses, as far as I know, does it?

Mr Dauth —That is right, Senator.

Senator WEST —Is it the department's assessment that Iran is continuing to seek to develop weapons of mass destruction—nuclear, chemical, biological, ballistic missiles—and ballistic missiles as means of delivery?

Mr Dauth —It is not an issue on which we are prepared to make public comment, Senator.

Senator WEST —Okay, and therefore you are not prepared to make comments about concerns that you might have in what is happening in that region?

Mr Dauth —We have acute concerns. Australia has been a leader in issues relating to WMD development for many years. The previous government and this government together have been very vigorous on these issues. I am quite unprepared to offer specific comment about individual countries, but you may rest assured that, wherever there are suggestions that WMD development is possible, we pursue those concerns with great vigour.

Senator WEST —Has our embassy in Tehran sought to observe the trials of the Iranian Jews currently facing charges of espionage?

Mr Dauth —Yes.

Senator WEST —And what representations has the government made to the Iranian government in respect of this issue?

Mr Dauth —I think we have made clear our views on a number of occasions, both in Canberra and in Tehran.

Mr Bowker —I could add to that, Senator, that the government has made 18 separate representations over the past year expressing our concern over the arrest and the trial of the 13 Iranian Jews, and Mr Downer has personally made five representations on that issue to Iranian ministers and other senior officials.

Senator WEST —Thank you. I turn to Iraq now. I am wondering whether you can outline the government's current position in respect of the UN's sanctions on Iraq.

Mr Dauth —We observe UN sanctions. We are good international citizens. If the Security Council agrees on sanctions we go along with it. We are not a member of the Security Council but we abide by UN sanctions as determined by the Security Council.

Senator WEST —Are they an effective way of forcing Iraq to comply with the UN Security Council resolutions concerning its weapons of mass destruction programs?

Mr Dauth —There is a much vaunted debate about that issue, and as good international citizens we have to take the view that this sort of action through the UN is at least one way. It has obviously not been possible to completely deal with the issue of WMD programs in Iraq through sanctions, though the international community simply has to keep on, in our view, trying on this issue.

Senator WEST —What is the department's assessment of the current humanitarian consequences of the sanctions?

Mr Dauth —There are clearly some consequences. It is impossible for us, in the absence of representation in Baghdad, apart from anything else, to reach clear or definitive conclusions.

Senator WEST —Does the government or the department consider there is a case for the international community to lift sanctions and pursue a program of engagement to elicit cooperation from Iraq?

Mr Dauth —That is not an issue which we are prepared to comment on in public. We are good international citizens—we abide by UN sanctions.

Senator WEST —Other good UN citizens would actually not persecute their countrymen, I suppose. Could I turn to Zimbabwe. I am wondering if you can provide the committee with its assessment of the election campaign so far in Zimbabwe.

Mr Dauth —I will ask Mr Doran if he has got any, as it were, factual comment to offer, but it is not our practice as the foreign ministry of a sovereign nation to offer a running commentary on the election campaigns of another country. But maybe Mr Doran has got something of a specific and factual nature to offer.

Mr Doran —The campaign is well under way. The elections are to be definitely held on 24 and 25 June. Our chairman today, Senator Sandy Macdonald, will be going as one of the Australian observers on the Commonwealth team. Ms Julie Bishop, MP, has already departed. There is little comment that I can make about the campaign. The potential candidates have until 2 or 3 June to register for the elections, so it is still not clear which parties will be contesting the election. Things will be a little bit clearer next week.

We have briefed the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade, and a number of individual members of parliament, on aspects of the election. I think we would be happy to continue to do that, but that is about all I can offer at this stage.

Senator WEST —What is the level of violence and intimidation at present? We see some comments in the media, we see some organisations are happily spamming away on the emails, but it is very hard to actually get some sort of factual understanding. Is the violence and intimidation that we see in the media across the whole of Zimbabwe, or is it in pockets of the country?

Mr Doran —The level of intimidation is very high. At present it is mainly confined to the rural areas, although there has been some violence in the bigger cities in Harare and Bulawayo, for example. The current death toll from all the politically motivated violence is about 24 at the moment, but there have been literally hundreds of beatings, serious assaults, and quite extensive property damage.

Senator WEST —The initial reports of the unrest—and this is not looking at the election campaign—tended to imply that it was black against white, but from my other understandings of what is happening there that is not necessarily the case. There is an opposition party that contains black and white that is being persecuted because, presumably, the leadership wants a single party state almost. Is that an assessment that is—

Mr Dauth —I do not think we are prepared to sign on to all the words you used. The proposition you put, that it is not a simple black/white divide, is absolutely right. But we would want to be pretty economical about what we said in public about the government in Zimbabwe.

Senator WEST —I have not spent 20 years in the department of foreign affairs and picked up your finer nuances of the language, I am sorry. I simply see it in more straightforward terms.

Mr Dauth —You are entitled to, Senator; you are a senator. I am a simple public official representing a foreign ministry.

Senator SCHACHT —There is only one word I would agree with you there on!

Mr Dauth —It is a serious point I make. Foreign ministries around the world do not go around commenting on governments in other sovereign states. It is not our practice. I am sorry, we are just not prepared to do that.

Senator WEST —That is okay.

Mr Dauth —As I say, it is entirely your prerogative how you describe other governments.

Senator WEST —The opposition forces, as I understand it, are an organisation who have not proposed the rule of force, they actually support the rule of the ballot box, which would mean they have some democratic principles and policies in their platform. Do they have that in their platform?

Mr Dauth —Is that the opposition?

Senator WEST —The opposition parties there.

Mr Dauth —As I understand it, yes.

Senator WEST —You mentioned, Mr Doran, that we did have some monitors going. What arrangements are in place? How many observers from Australia will be going to monitor?

Mr Doran —At the moment there are two, who are part of a Commonwealth contingent. The Commonwealth contingent is 32 strong and there are two from Australia.

Mr Dauth —Those numbers were not negotiated by us but by the Secretary-General of the Commonwealth.

Senator WEST —Yes. Presumably the organisation will be responsible for their security? It is not within our—

Mr Dauth —They are a Commonwealth delegation, a Commonwealth observer group, but I am here to reassure Senator Macdonald that we will be taking a very active interest in the welfare of the Australians.

CHAIR —Thank you, Mr Dauth.

Senator WEST —That is good. We do not want another casual vacancy in the Senate, do we?

CHAIR —No. I know how fond you are of me.

Senator WEST —That is right. So there will be nobody else from Australia to observe the election? DFAT is not sending any additional officers to Zimbabwe?

Mr Dauth —No. It has not been entirely straightforward for Don McKinnon, the Secretary-General of the Commonwealth, in negotiating the observer group. I do not think it would be very easy for us to propose any other Australian observers. Obviously, we have a very able mission in Harare. Ms Fisher, our High Commissioner there, is a very good officer, and she and her colleagues will themselves be taking a great interest in the conduct of the election. We will be looking to her to provide thorough reporting on it.

Senator WEST —Okay.

Mr Doran —If I could add something to that, in addition to sending the two observers as part of the Commonwealth team we have provided $150,000 to support the Commonwealth effort there. On the question of the possibility of additional observers, Mr Downer did indicate, when he made the announcement about the two Australians going as part of the Commonwealth team and the money to be provided, that he would look at other ways in which we might be able to support the observation effort. I cannot go much further than this at this stage, but there are some consultations under way between the government and the parliament on that.

Senator WEST —Thank you, Mr Doran. That is all I have got on that.

CHAIR —I think that brings us to the end of our consideration of South Pacific, Africa and the Middle East. We now move to outputs 1.1.5 and 1.2.5.

[8.11 p.m.]