CHAIR --Are there any questions on subprogram 3.1?

Senator NEWMAN --The latest Army newspaper included lift-outs on the daily cleaning and maintenance of the Steyr rifle. This is what I am talking about. The advice included the warning that excess oil has an adverse effect on the weapon. It specified parts of the weapons where oil should not be applied, including the return spring tubes on the bolt and the trigger mechanism. What is the purpose of this information campaign? Does it indicate that there has been a problem in the way in which personnel have been cleaning their weapons previously?

Major Gen. Hartley --The short answer to that is, probably yes. Otherwise I am not sure that we would have put it out quite that way.

Senator NEWMAN --Yes, it is a fairly expensive kind of undertaking with bits of paper and posters and things. What is the magnitude of the problem?

Major Gen. Hartley --The Steyr rifles had something like 150,000-plus copies and about 0.1 per cent were found to have had a problem. That problem has existed across a number of functional areas. I do not think there are any that stand out in relation to any other functional area. But, through the normal process of reviewing the weapon, going through the sorts of mechanical examinations that are required, that is what has emerged.

Senator NEWMAN --What has emerged?

Major Gen. Hartley --The fact that we have a very small error problem in the Steyr.

Senator NEWMAN --But what is the problem?

Major Gen. Hartley --The problem is in fact across a number of mechanical areas, and I will find the detail for you very quickly. Indeed, if I could direct your attention to General Crews, he will give a far better answer than I could.

Senator NEWMAN --The buck has passed, General.

Major Gen. Crews --The problem with the Steyr essentially has been an excessive use of oil. Previous weapons systems required a lot of oil to preserve the weapon and to prevent rust. The materials of which the Steyr is made do not require enormous oil. If a lot of oil is used, there tends to be a lot of sticking of other material. We have found that less oil and more graphite powder would be a better option for the type of mechanism in that weapon.

Senator NEWMAN --What happens to the rifle if too much oil is used?

Major Gen. Crews --Foreign material sticks to the weapon and gums up the parts and prevents it moving freely. This is exacerbated by the very fine tolerances within the weapon mechanism.

Senator NEWMAN --What sorts of problems have we been seeing?

Major Gen. Crews --Jamming of the trigger mechanism. None of it is safety related, but all of it has to do with the proper functioning of the weapon.

Senator NEWMAN --It seems to me that this is not the usual way that the Army goes about doing things with regard to weapon safety and handling; it would have been handled in the units.

Major Gen. Crews --The reason for producing it in that form is so that all soldiers had some visible means of seeing what the changes were. Those changes had been notified in the normal way. This was an addition to the normal way of notifying changes for weapon maintenance.

Senator NEWMAN --They were not taking any notice of the normal way?

Major Gen. Crews --The normal mechanism does not necessarily get to every soldier individually as expeditiously as we would like. That is a clear, graphic way of showing what the soldier must do with his or her weapon.

Senator NEWMAN --We had the hot weapon; now we have the oily weapon.

Senator Robert Ray --The hot weapon was an abuse of the weapon.

Senator NEWMAN --It could be suggested that this is abuse too. Obviously both are questions of ignorance.

Senator Robert Ray --I think they are two entirely different problems. One is ignorance, and one is stupidity. The overheating is an act of stupidity, to fire that amount of rounds. This other thing comes through ignorance or a problem of transition, the way they are maintained.

Senator NEWMAN --Perhaps it is transition for both?

Senator Robert Ray --Not so much the former one of overheating. There are clear instructions on that.

Senator NEWMAN --I am not satisfied that we ever got to the bottom of how prevalent the problem of overheating was. One answer I got was that there was one person who did something stupid. I understand the problem of overheating was wider than that. I am trying to find out how wide the problem with the oil has been. Has it been a widespread problem? The way of handling the old rifle was quite different. I would have thought that would have been dealt with in the initial training on the weapon. Are we not giving enough training to people on the Steyr?

Major Gen. Crews --The transition to the Steyr has involved a number of adjustments, particularly for those who were used to the old weapons system. This is a means of reinforcing the requirement for weapon maintenance. It does not necessarily reflect a serious problem. It is to ensure that soldiers do not excessively oil the weapon. It is a precaution more than a reaction to a serious problem.

Senator NEWMAN --We would not want rifles jamming. If the rifles were jamming, they would hardly be good for their purpose.

Major Gen. Crews --Certainly not.

Senator MacGIBBON --You talked about stupidity. What would have happened at Long Tan if they had had Steyr rifles? You cannot foresee circumstances where you might be under extreme pressure.

Senator Robert Ray --You cannot use a Steyr rifle as a machine gun. It is not there for that purpose. It is there as a rifle.

Senator NEWMAN --If your life depended on it, you would use it in lots of bursts?

Senator MacGIBBON --The weapon has the capability of automatic firing. The expectation must surely be that in an emergency a soldier will use it in that role to save his life.

Senator Robert Ray --He would be doing it in concert with colleagues who would have a different variety of arms. A rifle is not provided as a machine gun. That is clear, I would have thought. I invite either General Hartley or General Crews to comment on that.

Major Gen. Hartley --That is correct. The three occasions I am aware of that this weapon has performed poorly have been under sustained rates of fire. It was not used in accordance with the way it should have been. The weapon is not meant to be a machine gun. It is almost impossible to fire the high volume necessary to cause it to malfunction. It is a very difficult exercise to do in the first place.

Senator MacGIBBON --Does it malfunction if it is subjected to sustained rates of fire--yes or no?

Senator Robert Ray --Let us ask what the rate is first.

Major Gen. Hartley --The answer is yes, but it was not meant to be used that way. Interestingly enough, I was in Vietnam at the time of the Battle of Long Tan. The only weapons still firing at the end of Long Tan were the self-loading rifles. All the machine guns had jammed.

Senator NEWMAN --That says something about the rate of fire and the soldiers' reaction.

Major Gen. Hartley --I do not know.

Senator NEWMAN --When their lives are threatened.

Major Gen. Hartley --It does.

Senator NEWMAN --It shows what people will do when they have a weapon in their hands and their lives are on the line.

Major Gen. Hartley --If soldiers were properly trained and were operating as part of a team which has a machine gun working with it, that should not come about.

Senator NEWMAN --And the machine gun runs out of ammunition?

Senator Robert Ray --Presumably you still have multi-Steyrs that can operate at the rate planned for them and still be a very effective weapon.

Major Gen. Hartley --More importantly, soldiers appreciate that if they fire at such an intense rate of fire their weapon will jam any way. Therefore, part of the requirement is not to fire at that rate.

Senator MacGIBBON --Can the weapon be modified by the substitution of a metallic part for the plastic part?

Major Gen. Crews --This weapon was designed with a number of different metals and plastic body work. That was the optimum design for the weapon. No attempt has been made to substitute some of those components with other metallic components. Without doing an analysis, I suspect it would not necessarily enhance the weapon's performance. It could possibly even degrade it.

Senator Robert Ray --One of the things we should stress is that the very nature of the Steyr brings other advantages in terms of mobility, the lack of being gun shy with it, et cetera, which all helps to deal with problems. If you have an ultimate problem when you fire--what is it?--900 rounds a minute for three minutes, it is not a machine gun. All the rest of the trade-offs are in favour of the soldier.

Senator MacGIBBON --Is that the precise figure--900 rounds over three minutes to cause the meltdown?

Senator Robert Ray --No.

Senator MacGIBBON --What is the precise figure?

Senator Robert Ray --I looked over at the previous example. I am trying to pull it out of the memory bank. Do we know what the firing rate was the last time a problem occurred?

Major Gen. Hartley --No.

Senator Robert Ray --I will certainly find out. I remember seeing it somewhere.

Major Gen. Hartley --It is a well documented case.

Senator Robert Ray --Do not take the 900 as a fact. It was a left field figure.

Senator MacGIBBON --You would be running out of hands changing magazines at that rate. We would appreciate that information.

CHAIR --As we have completed that question, we will get the Navy back and finish with them.

[2.38 p.m.]